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Fix outside PTs? [message #346646] Thu, 14 August 2008 01:31 Go to next message
mac is currently offline  mac
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Fix outside PTs ?[ 146 votes ]
1. Yes! 73 / 50%
2. No! 73 / 50%

Hello Everybody,

There has been some controversy about the ability to use the purchase terminals outside of the buildings. There have been arguments to fix this bug, and also arguments to leave it alone.

At this point, we're undecided if we should fix this issue, and we've decided to create a poll instead, to let the users decide.

Note that this fix can only apply to all stock maps, as all the maps have to be edited. Fan maps are not going to be fixed.

We'll also need a mapper to make this happen, so we're open for recruiting in this department.

Note that there will be either a "unfixpt" or a "fixpt" seperate patch available to keep everyone happy.. it's just the question which fix should be default..

Please keep the flaming in the other thread..

-mac

Edit by Goz:

In short what has been said in defense of the PT fix:
* they weren't meant to be;
* sbh nuke = 1.400 credits, it should have at least a chance of success;
* PT outside = advantage for GDI as Nod only has it on air (can be nuked anywhere on the runway anyway) and the oby whereas GDI has it on agt, bar, wf. On most maps it's usable for GDI, only on a few maps for Nod;
* people can and will adapt their strategies to this, which will give a new flow of strategies for Renegade.

Things said against it:
* it will be nearly impossible to defend against some nukes (exemple: field barracks back);
* everyone is used to it/uses it, so why remove it?


Quote:


danpaul88: buggy bugs brenbot because buggy befriends brainlessness

[Updated on: Thu, 11 September 2008 02:27]

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Re: Fix outside PTs? [message #346647 is a reply to message #346646] Thu, 14 August 2008 01:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Caveman is currently offline  Caveman
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Voted no.

CarrierII wrote

BLUEHTHEN YOU AR NOT JUST A BIG CHEATAS AND YOU THE BIG HEAD JUST YOU USE FLY H4X FUCK YOU BIG CHEATAS YOUR CHEATZ IS BAD YOU WANT I WRAUGHT THIS YOUR CHEATZ IS BAD HEY IS 1 YEAR YOUR PROMESS A FLY HAX IN MULTIPLAYER AND IS DONT JUST TROOPRM02 I TELL IT ALL WHO REPLYER IN THIS FORUM YOU CHEATZ

Please don't make me type something like that again, not using puntuation is annoying.


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Re: Fix outside PTs? [message #346648 is a reply to message #346646] Thu, 14 August 2008 01:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jamie or NuneGa is currently offline  Jamie or NuneGa
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Thank you for letting the players decide. Now I will shut up.

I advise people to read the arguments that have been put forward for and against the issue rather than deciding on on the basis of inconvinience alone, or the it is a bug ideology.


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Jamie is a guys name in Europe...

[Updated on: Thu, 14 August 2008 01:37]

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Re: Fix outside PTs? [message #346649 is a reply to message #346646] Thu, 14 August 2008 01:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mac is currently offline  mac
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Can you create me a quick writeup with all the arguments for fixing this, and also everything against fixing this? I will put it in the first post.

Quote:


danpaul88: buggy bugs brenbot because buggy befriends brainlessness

Re: Fix outside PTs? [message #346654 is a reply to message #346646] Thu, 14 August 2008 01:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Goztow is currently offline  Goztow
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How come I just see the results but cannot vote? Maybe restart the poll when you wrote down all the arguments pro and con?

You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
Re: Fix outside PTs? [message #346655 is a reply to message #346646] Thu, 14 August 2008 01:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mac is currently offline  mac
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Seems to work now.

Quote:


danpaul88: buggy bugs brenbot because buggy befriends brainlessness

Re: Fix outside PTs? [message #346656 is a reply to message #346646] Thu, 14 August 2008 01:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
TD is currently offline  TD
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Fix

http://i38.tinypic.com/6fs2s9.png
Re: Fix outside PTs? [message #346660 is a reply to message #346656] Thu, 14 August 2008 03:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
EvilWhiteDragon is currently offline  EvilWhiteDragon
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I think that the default should be on fixed. This because we're already changing a lot of stuff that alone doesn't have too much influence on the gameplay, but all combined it may. By putting this fix in the patch people will really notice that we've at least tried to get Renegade as bug free as possible.
It doesn't make sense to ave PT's usable through walls, because if it was intended, then why wouldn't Westwood have made PT's just as visible as on the inside?


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Re: Fix outside PTs? [message #346666 is a reply to message #346646] Thu, 14 August 2008 04:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Reaver11 is currently offline  Reaver11
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Just fix this bug, if players really want pt's you can SERVER-SIDE modify it. That should still be possible in TT.
Just place some extra pt's and a switch to mark where it is and you are done.

The Bug will be gone and serverowners can descide if they want outer pt's !
Re: Fix outside PTs? [message #346674 is a reply to message #346646] Thu, 14 August 2008 05:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MrCookies is currently offline  MrCookies
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fix it...

Whats A Signature ?
Re: Fix outside PTs? [message #346675 is a reply to message #346646] Thu, 14 August 2008 05:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kanezor is currently offline  Kanezor
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There's plenty of spots whereas if you remove outside PTs, you will pretty much never be able to disable a beacon in time if you encounter any beacon cover whatsoever. The barracks is especially vulnerable with it having only a single entrance, and that's on nearly any map. Any beacon on the rear end of it would be almost a guaranteed destruction. The back corner of the Refineries (near the tunnels) on Field when the base defenses are offline are also vulnerable.

To be honest, I would rather see this fix twofold: have an option to remove purchase terminal access from outside. And then if purchase terminal access from outside is enabled, then have the outside terminal be displayed so that people know that it's there on that server.


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Re: Fix outside PTs? [message #346676 is a reply to message #346646] Thu, 14 August 2008 05:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Herr Surth is currently offline  Herr Surth
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Quote:

There's plenty of spots whereas if you remove outside PTs, you will pretty much never be able to disable a beacon in time if you encounter any beacon cover whatsoever. The barracks is especially vulnerable with it having only a single entrance, and that's on nearly any map. Any beacon on the rear end of it would be almost a guaranteed destruction. The back corner of the Refineries (near the tunnels) on Field when the base defenses are offline are also vulnerable.
MAYBE THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO BE VULNERABLE TO A 1000$ BEACON THAT IS FIRING A GODDAMN NUCLEAR MISSLE? HAVE YOU THOUGHT ABOUT THAT?

DO I USE CAPSLOCK? QUITE SO, YES!
Re: Fix outside PTs? [message #346681 is a reply to message #346646] Thu, 14 August 2008 05:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Goztow is currently offline  Goztow
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Barracks has more chance of being killed by a nuke and less chance of being killed by a techie (only one entrance). If you think about it, it does make sense.

I voted for "fix". i used to think it was a bug we should keep but a long discussion convinced me that it should probably be fixed. It's up to the players to adapt their tactics (example: keep an player in the defense with a remoted humvee to quickly react on SBH's.


You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
Re: Fix outside PTs? [message #346682 is a reply to message #346646] Thu, 14 August 2008 06:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
candy is currently offline  candy
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just make it with the option to take the fix out again
if people really don't like it, you can always get ur pt's back
Re: Fix outside PTs? [message #346683 is a reply to message #346660] Thu, 14 August 2008 06:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Thu, 14 August 2008 05:58

I think that the default should be on fixed. This because we're already changing a lot of stuff that alone doesn't have too much influence on the gameplay, but all combined it may. By putting this fix in the patch people will really notice that we've at least tried to get Renegade as bug free as possible.
It doesn't make sense to ave PT's usable through walls, because if it was intended, then why wouldn't Westwood have made PT's just as visible as on the inside?


In the released readme of Renegade, it specifically stats use a PT from standing infront of it (nothing about behind it), hit the E key to enter it... (also stated nothing about getting 1 cred per sec when pp is down just double costs of everything, and hotty/tech suppose to be getting double the range of a normal engi (inwhich I don't think they do). But that all doesn't seem to matter after 6 years and the 'official' readme right on the CDs)

I think everything should be on/fixed by default. Isn't that the point of the patch anyway.
Re: Fix outside PTs? [message #346684 is a reply to message #346682] Thu, 14 August 2008 06:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
EvilWhiteDragon is currently offline  EvilWhiteDragon
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candy wrote on Thu, 14 August 2008 15:08

just make it with the option to take the fix out again
if people really don't like it, you can always get ur pt's back


IF you would've read the first post, then you would've read that there will be a fix or an unfix (depending on the default).

What we're trying to decide here is which one to make default.


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Re: Fix outside PTs? [message #346688 is a reply to message #346646] Thu, 14 August 2008 07:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
=HT=T-Bird is currently offline  =HT=T-Bird
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The one problem I can see with removing PTs is defending top of barracks nukes in Canyon...but maybe that ramp should be removed altogether or a blocker inserted? It doesn't really make sense that you can stick a nuke there on a non-flying map Razz

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Re: Fix outside PTs? [message #346693 is a reply to message #346646] Thu, 14 August 2008 08:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Chuck Norris is currently offline  Chuck Norris
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Perhaps the debate should be kept in the other thread, but I'll summarize my vote with a list of reasons, which was for fixing this.

-It's pretty clearly a bug, and was not meant to be.
-Not everyone knows about this despite how common it seems to us here. I'd bet over half to possibly 2/3 of the community does not know of this. It's not fair that some people don't know when it's an exploit. You shouldn't have to know the dark secrets, so to say, to play.
-It destroys balance. This is the biggest reason it needs fixed. A SHB costs $1400. They also take time to get to said location, and are basically effectively not working towards their team effort while nuking. Well, they ARE overall, but they stay hidden and do not actively fight or defend, meaning the opposing team has one less person against them at said time. On top of that, nukes aren't unstoppable, and while the Barracks specifically is an easier target, it's harder to get into via infantry. It's easier to defend against infantry so it's weaker to nukes. That's the tradeoff that building has for having no rear doors. This bug gives it the advantage of having no rear doors but takes away it's disadvantage.
-With outside PT access, SBHs are more useless. Nod has to rely on Stealth as a brute fight alone (if both sides are equal) won't work, and this hurts Nod a bit. The fact that alot of people call using the SBH a "n00bs tactic" clearly shows how useless it is now.

Reasons I can see for it staying, but don't think any are good enough.
-They're already in place and everyone is used to them. True, but they destroy balance, and this is flawed thinking since they were never meant to come to be in place to begin with. Sure, it sucks having to change, but to those who want to whine, be willing to adapt your strategy and play rather than wanting to rely on an exploit that changes the balance and intended play.
-Some nukes are hard to stop. This is true, but so are other strategies in given scenarios, and I think the game still balances out overall. It's all of these small things together that make Renegade so balanced, and with this bug, the SBH and part of Nod's stealth strategy are hindered.


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[Updated on: Thu, 14 August 2008 08:52]

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Re: Fix outside PTs? [message #346694 is a reply to message #346646] Thu, 14 August 2008 08:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hitman is currently offline  Hitman
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after thinking about the cons n pros i think it should be fixed after all since i think gdi>nod overall and gdi can do this on nearly all buildings and nod only at strip... would balance things a tiny bit more i'm sure... fix it
Re: Fix outside PTs? [message #346701 is a reply to message #346646] Thu, 14 August 2008 09:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
trooprm02 is currently offline  trooprm02
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This is kinda unfair...there is many more kids that don't know jack shit about this game but they get to vote as many times as the more experienced players that actually understand tactics and strategies....

Re: Fix outside PTs? [message #346702 is a reply to message #346646] Thu, 14 August 2008 09:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Herr Surth is currently offline  Herr Surth
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agreed, its not fair that troopm02 gets a vote.
Re: Fix outside PTs? [message #346704 is a reply to message #346646] Thu, 14 August 2008 10:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
StealthEye is currently offline  StealthEye
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What really is unfair, is that all players who are just playing the game and not visiting these forums don't get to vote.

I voted yes. Basically because of the arguments Chuck Norris listed. The arguments stated in the other thread convinced me it would be good to fix it.


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Re: Fix outside PTs? [message #346708 is a reply to message #346704] Thu, 14 August 2008 11:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
karmai is currently offline  karmai
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You guys are creating a patch

a patch to fix gltiches


the pt glitch is one of the BIGGEST glitches in renegade, if you guys don't fix that theres no point in patching up the game

it wont be IMPOSSIBLE to disarm nukes, you'll just have to have 2 players fall back to defend it instead of just 1

IMO if it comes down to barracks VRS hand, in any size game its not hard AT ALL to mine the front of the barracks, and patrol with a havoc so that no SBH's get their nukes down.

GDI has a gunner as infrantry, MAJOR point whore.. not has nothing like this, usually when it comes down to infrantry only GDI's got somebody using a gunner all game while all nod can do is constantly SBH rush



tbh, if the havocs at the back of the barracks, 2 sbh's start attacking him.. if he has to refill he SHOULD have lost that game, thats when its time to step up, be nerdy, and kill them

[Updated on: Thu, 14 August 2008 11:12]

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Re: Fix outside PTs? [message #346709 is a reply to message #346646] Thu, 14 August 2008 11:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nikki6ixx is currently offline  nikki6ixx
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Voted to fix it.

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Re: Fix outside PTs? [message #346711 is a reply to message #346701] Thu, 14 August 2008 11:20 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Chuck Norris is currently offline  Chuck Norris
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trooprm02 wrote on Thu, 14 August 2008 12:48

This is kinda unfair...there is many more kids that don't know jack shit about this game but they get to vote as many times as the more experienced players that actually understand tactics and strategies....

That's kind of odd considering if you read this topic up until now, what is it like 2/3 or maybe even 3/4 of those who have posted are voting to fix it, but the poll results (currently) have it split 50/50. What does this mean? The people voting to fix it are giving reasons, good ones I may add, whereas the ones voting to leave it are the ones who appear to not know anything.

There's also the fact someone else brought up that probably something like 4/5 of the Renegade community don't come to these forums (no matter what the number, it's an overwhelming majority), and of the 1/5 that does, even less will see and vote in this poll.


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When Chuck Norris does a pushup, he isn’t lifting himself up, he’s pushing the Earth down.

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