Home » General Discussions » Heated Discussions and Debates » Church of FSM
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #176580 is a reply to message #176478] |
Wed, 26 October 2005 17:56   |
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| Javaxcx |
...it sure makes it easier for people to comprehend reality when they toss away the shackles of anthropomorphized dieties and senseless sophisms coming from a "religion authority".
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http://www.resort.com/~prime8/Orwell/patee.html
Anyway, one must find the difference between religon and true fellowship with God. There is a difference. Instead of the common conception of who Jesus is, we can see in the Gospels that he abhored "religion." Do a search for "Pharisee" and you'll see what I mean. Also, you might want to take a look at this: http://heaven.net.nz/visions/escape-from-christendom.htm
| runewood |
...a book with words in it doesnt count...
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As opposed to a book without words in it?
| Crimson wrote on Wed, 26 October 2005 05:24 |
No, not really. I can prove the non-existence of "God" in my own mind using any approach.
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Psalm 53:1
Proverbs 3:5
Proverbs 28:26
God is the "0wnage". Plain and Simple.
Visit http://www.theoriginalmrbob.com
"If there's one freak to be, it's a Jesus freak"
All your base are belong to us.
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #176607 is a reply to message #176580] |
Thu, 27 October 2005 02:20 |
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Crimson
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| MrBob wrote on Wed, 26 October 2005 17:56 |
Psalm 53:1
Proverbs 3:5
Proverbs 28:26
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Psalm 53:1 = "THE [empty-headed] fool has said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt and evil are they, and doing abominable iniquity; there is none who does good."
Proverbs 3:5 = "Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths. Do not be wise in your own eyes; Fear the Lord and depart from evil...."
Proverbs 28:26 = "He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool: but whoso walketh wisely, he shall be delivered."
Wow... seriously? SERIOUSLY?! You are SERIOUSLY using quotes from a book I do not believe is the word of "God" to do... what? Insult me? Call me empty-headed, corrupt, evil, etc?
Here's a nice summary of the arguments I have heard here.
| "300 proofs of God's existence" |
13) ARGUMENT FROM THE BIBLE
(1) [arbitrary passage from OT]
(2) [arbitrary passage from NT]
(3) Therefore, God exists.
53) ARGUMENT FROM HISTORY
(1) The Bible is true.
(2) Therefore, the Bible is historical fact.
(3) Therefore, God exists.
63) ARGUMENT FROM HUMAN NECESSITY
(1) Atheists say that they don't need God.
(2) Which just goes to show that they need God.
(3) Therefore, God exists.
81) ARGUMENT FROM INEVITABILITY (This one is for Javaxcx)
(1) I have proof that God exists.
(2) I won't bother to tell you what it is because, being Atheists, you would be hostile to the conclusion anyway.
(3) Therefore, God exists.
84) ARGUMENT FROM POSTMODERNISM
(1) I'm going to prove to you that God exists.
(2) [Insert any of the other arguments on this page in here.]
(3) [Atheist refutes argument.]
(4) I cannot prove there is a God anymore than anyone of us can prove we really exist in a tangible world.
(5) Therefore, God exists.
109) ARGUMENT FROM LACK OF DISPROOF
(1) You can't prove God doesn't exist!
(2) Therefore, God exists.
118) ARGUMENT FROM FOOLISHNESS
(1) The Bible says Atheists are fools.
(2) I don't want to be a fool.
(3) Therefore, God exists.
227) ARGUMENT FROM THE BIBLE (II)
(1) The Bible says the Bible is true.
(2) Therefore the Bible is true.
(3) The Bible says God exists.
(4) Therefore, God exist.
259) ARGUMENT FROM NOT-BELIEVING
(1) The New Testament says people like you would question us.
(2) You question us.
(3) Therefore the Bible is true.
(4) Therefore, God exists.
Source: http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm
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I can't believe that so many people can't see that this "God" character is the perfect way to control you. It's the biggest and most successful manipulation the world will ever see. This omnipresent, omnibenevolent character is the best thing man has ever invented to control billions of people. It's sheer genius is what it is.
I feel like this outside observer watching this manipulation on a grand scale and I sit here shaking my head at how easily people are indoctrinated from birth and just filled with this unprovable and high implausible STORY. You will NEVER convince me to fall for this bullshit EVER. The very idea of this just reminds me of a child with an imaginary friend.
I'm the bawss.
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #176619 is a reply to message #176607] |
Thu, 27 October 2005 06:50 |
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warranto
Messages: 2584
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Location: Alberta, Canada
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| Crimson wrote on Thu, 27 October 2005 05:20 |
Here's a nice summary of the arguments I have heard here.
| "300 proofs of God's existence" |
13) ARGUMENT FROM THE BIBLE
(1) [arbitrary passage from OT]
(2) [arbitrary passage from NT]
(3) Therefore, God exists.
53) ARGUMENT FROM HISTORY
(1) The Bible is true.
(2) Therefore, the Bible is historical fact.
(3) Therefore, God exists.
63) ARGUMENT FROM HUMAN NECESSITY
(1) Atheists say that they don't need God.
(2) Which just goes to show that they need God.
(3) Therefore, God exists.
81) ARGUMENT FROM INEVITABILITY (This one is for Javaxcx)
(1) I have proof that God exists.
(2) I won't bother to tell you what it is because, being Atheists, you would be hostile to the conclusion anyway.
(3) Therefore, God exists.
84) ARGUMENT FROM POSTMODERNISM
(1) I'm going to prove to you that God exists.
(2) [Insert any of the other arguments on this page in here.]
(3) [Atheist refutes argument.]
(4) I cannot prove there is a God anymore than anyone of us can prove we really exist in a tangible world.
(5) Therefore, God exists.
109) ARGUMENT FROM LACK OF DISPROOF
(1) You can't prove God doesn't exist!
(2) Therefore, God exists.
118) ARGUMENT FROM FOOLISHNESS
(1) The Bible says Atheists are fools.
(2) I don't want to be a fool.
(3) Therefore, God exists.
227) ARGUMENT FROM THE BIBLE (II)
(1) The Bible says the Bible is true.
(2) Therefore the Bible is true.
(3) The Bible says God exists.
(4) Therefore, God exist.
259) ARGUMENT FROM NOT-BELIEVING
(1) The New Testament says people like you would question us.
(2) You question us.
(3) Therefore the Bible is true.
(4) Therefore, God exists.
Source: http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm
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I can't believe that so many people can't see that this "God" character is the perfect way to control you. It's the biggest and most successful manipulation the world will ever see. This omnipresent, omnibenevolent character is the best thing man has ever invented to control billions of people. It's sheer genius is what it is.
I feel like this outside observer watching this manipulation on a grand scale and I sit here shaking my head at how easily people are indoctrinated from birth and just filled with this unprovable and high implausible STORY. You will NEVER convince me to fall for this bullshit EVER. The very idea of this just reminds me of a child with an imaginary friend.
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Come on Crimson, I've mentioned this to you before. Stop quoting things that prove how religion got it wrong to "prove" that God doesn't exist.
It doesn't work that way. Something can still be truth, despite the idea that no one has the proper understanding of it.
[Updated on: Thu, 27 October 2005 06:51] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #176627 is a reply to message #175124] |
Thu, 27 October 2005 08:15 |
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mrpirate
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I'm not certain that quoting a passage from the bible which states that atheists are stupid even really qualifies as an argument for god's existence.
Java: I think I get now what your argument is, although if there's more to it that hasn't been touched upon in this thread then never mind this. However, as you stated yourself, there is a stretch between saying that there was an initial cause to the universe, and saying that this cause is the god so many religions are so wound up over.
Looking back at history, there have been billions of people who have believed in the most bizarre, contrived, and, frankly, silly gods and deities. And they all believed just as earnestly as you do. To me, this is what really marginalizes any belief in god.
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #176629 is a reply to message #176627] |
Thu, 27 October 2005 08:28 |
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warranto
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| mrpirate wrote on Thu, 27 October 2005 11:15 |
Looking back at history, there have been billions of people who have believed in the most bizarre, contrived, and, frankly, silly gods and deities. And they all believed just as earnestly as you do. To me, this is what really marginalizes any belief in god.
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Kind of like science, no?
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #176632 is a reply to message #175124] |
Thu, 27 October 2005 08:59 |
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mrpirate
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It is kind of like science, I agree. Sometimes I wonder what, out of our science, will by laughed at by future generations. Although, I find it easier to believe in what science tells us, since it is backed up with proof (theoritical and empirical). If science says that there are some forces, and using these forces we can build something that does function x, and so we build it and it does perform function x, then I believe that science has got this right. It's possible, I suppose, that science being right most of the time is a coincidence, but that seems fairly unlikely. That being said, I do not believe that science is absolutely right about everything.
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #176642 is a reply to message #176627] |
Thu, 27 October 2005 10:42 |
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Javaxcx
Messages: 1943
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Location: Canada, eh?
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| mrpirate wrote on Thu, 27 October 2005 11:15 |
Java: I think I get now what your argument is, although if there's more to it that hasn't been touched upon in this thread then never mind this. However, as you stated yourself, there is a stretch between saying that there was an initial cause to the universe, and saying that this cause is the god so many religions are so wound up over.
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The difference, as far as I'm concerned, is that the religions who get so wound up are the same religions that starting defining characteristics of God they, as human beings, could never possibly know. That being said, I don't contend that the God I'm arguing for the sake of is the same God as the Bible, Koran, Buddha, or whatever.
He (personified, even though I can't prove yet that He can be called a pronoun accurately) simply is the initiatial force that allowed all things to come into essence. I'm currently writting up a thesis on transcendental causality which would point precisely to everything I haven't explained or have left as a loose thread. Doitle's in on the idea too and we were going to try and work it all out and present a concise, logical necessity for a God who at the very fundamental level exists. It doesn't rely on faith or any sort of abstract, for lack of a better word, bullshit, but rather a coherent and highly plasuable explanation that the existentialists can't refute, or refute easily.
Sniper Extraordinaire
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All your base are belong to us.
You have no chance to survive make your time.
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #176644 is a reply to message #176643] |
Thu, 27 October 2005 11:10 |
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mrpirate
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| Javaxcx wrote on Thu, 27 October 2005 14:03 |
I don't think that anyone can know anything supernatural using natural laws.
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Would this not be a property of the supernatural? And if so, how can one know it?
If you were to successfully lay down evidence suggesting that the universe was begun by something (a "god," for lack of a better word--since it would not need to be a god in the traditional sense at all), would everything else stated about this god not be mere conjecture?
[Updated on: Thu, 27 October 2005 11:11] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #176647 is a reply to message #176632] |
Thu, 27 October 2005 12:26 |
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warranto
Messages: 2584
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Location: Alberta, Canada
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| mrpirate wrote on Thu, 27 October 2005 11:59 |
It is kind of like science, I agree. Sometimes I wonder what, out of our science, will by laughed at by future generations. Although, I find it easier to believe in what science tells us, since it is backed up with proof (theoritical and empirical). If science says that there are some forces, and using these forces we can build something that does function x, and so we build it and it does perform function x, then I believe that science has got this right. It's possible, I suppose, that science being right most of the time is a coincidence, but that seems fairly unlikely. That being said, I do not believe that science is absolutely right about everything.
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The only point I was bringing about this is that despite the inaccuracies expressed through current and past religions, the simply fact that they got something wrong should have no bearing on whether or not the idea of God is wrong.
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #176653 is a reply to message #175124] |
Thu, 27 October 2005 13:10 |
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NeoSaber
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Registered: February 2003
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Recruit |
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How did a topic that started with talk on intelligent design and evolution degenerate so fast into "God exists", "No he doesn't", "Yes, He does", "No, he doesn't"... Is it just a way of avoiding the issue?
So, back on topic for a sec: Evolution isn't a scientific theory, yet it's taught in schools. Intelligent Design is equally a hypothesis that has little to no testable evidence, so why not teach it as well? At least ID includes information that's more modern, whereas evolution is typically taught with information that is, at best, decades out of date. Honestly, I don't think either should be taught until college, at the earliest. Neither merits being taught to children, since there's no scientific experiments to support them.
But people never actually look at that stuff. Debates always seem to turn into one side saying "Evolution is a theory, not a fact", and the other saying "ID is religion, not science"
If you use the argument "Evolution is a theory, not a fact", you might as well concede the entire debate right there. A scientific theory is so well tested, it might as well be 'fact'. A real scientific theory is Einstein's General Relativity, evolution is a joke by comparison.
Then there's the people who say ID is religion, not science. Intelligent Design is a statistical analysis of scientific evidence that indicates things were designed with intent. It's essentially 'the scientific evidence of God'. It is approaching the whole issue of 'is there a God' from a scientific perspective. Whether you agree with the hypothesis or not you can't just dismiss it as 'religion'.
NeoSaber
Renegade Map Maker at CnC Source
Animator/Compiler/Level Editor/Object Rigger/Programmer for Red Alert: A Path Beyond
[Updated on: Thu, 27 October 2005 13:14] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #176670 is a reply to message #175124] |
Thu, 27 October 2005 16:41 |
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NukeIt15
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Colonel |
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Everybody has a religion. That religion doesn't, necessarily, need to include supernatural beings that create and govern. Religion is a set of beliefs and morals on which a person relies for guidance- especially when the rules of society do not or can not apply.
Considering the vast number of religions all through history, all of which have claimed to represent the ultimate Truth, I just cannot subscribe to the belief that any one of them is in any way superior. Religions have a tendency to evolve and adapt to societies as they, in turn, grow and adapt. For all the millions of people that have believed in any one of today's major religions, there have been billions more that have not. It simply makes no sense to say ANYONE has the keys to the universe, let alone one faith in particular.
That said, it is unthinkable that so many billions of people could ALL be wrong. I propose that no one religion, no one set of beliefs has, or could ever have, all the answers.
On a related note, I highly doubt science will ever uncover the deepest mysteries of the universe, either. There's only so far back in history we can look back with our space telescopes and dating systems- and death remains a curtain beyond which we cannot see. The "Unknown" personified would be a Hydra- the more we discover, the smaller the sum total of our knowledge becomes (compared to the Truth, that being all knowledge that could ever be known).
I have a hard time believing that there ever was an absolute beginning of time, and I likewise cannot believe that there could ever be an ending. Likewise for life and death- for all its complexity, life cannot possibly end with the destruction of the shell of matter in which it is contained. What lies beyond bodily death, I could not begin to guess. Compared to the infinity that is existence, each person is the tiniest particle, an invisible speck with no influence whatsoever (and yet our power grows with each passing day). We can never know everything, because that "everything" will keep right on getting bigger and bigger, far faster than we will ever be able to learn.
When I say that I am an Atheist, I say so because I do not believe that there is one class of beings that is superior to all others- as I have said before, for every creation there is a creator- nothing can be wholly responsible for its own existence, for it could not exist if there was nothing there before it to set events in motion. Therefore, there is no such thing as a god in my mind. Only differing levels of forces that could be viewed as godlike when viewed by those of a vastly lower level.
And just to make one thing ABUNDANTLY clear, I have plenty of doubt in myself- I harbor no delusions of being some kind of prophet who can see everything while everyone else is blind. That would be hypocritical to an extreme, not to mention arrogant and stupid. It might very well be that I'm bound for Hell on the 6:00 express and don't even realize it- I just don't believe that to be the case.
"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. Horrid mischief would ensue were (the law-abiding) deprived of the use of them." - Thomas Paine
Remember, kids: illiteracy is cool. If you took the time to read this, you are clearly a loser who will never get laid. You've been warned.
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #176684 is a reply to message #176653] |
Thu, 27 October 2005 22:58 |
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mrpirate
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| NeoSaber wrote on Thu, 27 October 2005 16:10 |
How did a topic that started with talk on intelligent design and evolution degenerate so fast into "God exists", "No he doesn't", "Yes, He does", "No, he doesn't"... Is it just a way of avoiding the issue?
So, back on topic for a sec: Evolution isn't a scientific theory, yet it's taught in schools. Intelligent Design is equally a hypothesis that has little to no testable evidence, so why not teach it as well? At least ID includes information that's more modern, whereas evolution is typically taught with information that is, at best, decades out of date. Honestly, I don't think either should be taught until college, at the earliest. Neither merits being taught to children, since there's no scientific experiments to support them.
But people never actually look at that stuff. Debates always seem to turn into one side saying "Evolution is a theory, not a fact", and the other saying "ID is religion, not science"
If you use the argument "Evolution is a theory, not a fact", you might as well concede the entire debate right there. A scientific theory is so well tested, it might as well be 'fact'. A real scientific theory is Einstein's General Relativity, evolution is a joke by comparison.
Then there's the people who say ID is religion, not science. Intelligent Design is a statistical analysis of scientific evidence that indicates things were designed with intent. It's essentially 'the scientific evidence of God'. It is approaching the whole issue of 'is there a God' from a scientific perspective. Whether you agree with the hypothesis or not you can't just dismiss it as 'religion'.
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Hahahahaha
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #176685 is a reply to message #175124] |
Fri, 28 October 2005 00:02 |
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NeoSaber
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Recruit |
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That's about what I expected...
I was hoping someone would try to prove me wrong, expanding everyone's knowledge on the subject in the process. I should of known better...
NeoSaber
Renegade Map Maker at CnC Source
Animator/Compiler/Level Editor/Object Rigger/Programmer for Red Alert: A Path Beyond
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #176696 is a reply to message #176615] |
Fri, 28 October 2005 05:51 |
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Crimson
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| MrBob wrote on Thu, 27 October 2005 05:59 |
So you accuse me of being brainwashed by quoting something to make an argument, yet you're quoting something to make an argument.
Strange... 
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That's where you're wrong. Knowing how I feel about the Bible and its origins makes it the single worst way to approach me on this subject. This is a summary of what you thought would happen:
Me: The bible is a book written by corrupt men and passed off as the word of some imaginary deity.
You: But the bible says there would be people like you who don't believe and are consequently EVIL.
Me: Oh, well, if the bible says that, it must be true. I believe in God now so you and the rest of the believers won't think I am evil!
Did you really expect quoting Bible passages would make me a believer?!
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| Crimson |
I can't believe that so many people can't see that this "God" character is the perfect way to control you.
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He's controlling me? The last time I checked, I still had free will. Yes, God tells us things to do, but it's our choice to listen.
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That's NOT what I said, AGAIN you got it wrong. The concept of "God" is what controls you. Yes, you have free will. But if you decide you want to kill someone, there are consequences. However, if you kill someone and you're not caught (which I imagine was a lot more likely back in the days before forensic science and DNA testing) then you are essentially able to kill someone without any punishment whatsoever!
Even a fool can see that this is NO way to run a society! Not 2000 years ago when detective skills and sciences were primative at BEST! So... what's the solution? Ah, yes, the "God" who can see everything. Just like a grown-up version of Santa Claus who sees you when you're sleeping and knows when you're awake. Sure, now if you kill someone and no one sees it or proves it, you get away scot free in this life, but NOW there's a greater punishment. Eternity in the flames of hell!
But oh no! No one will believe this story! Sure they will... they can't prove it's wrong because no one knows what happens when you die. So now we have this imaginary character we dreamed up and we'll make sure that "he" told some guy how we humans are supposed to behave and act so that we will be forever fearful of eternal punishment.
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| Crimson |
I feel like this outside observer watching this manipulation on a grand scale and I sit here shaking my head at how easily people are indoctrinated from birth and just filled with this unprovable and high implausible STORY. You will NEVER convince me to fall for this bullshit EVER...
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Because you are so wise...
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Well, all I can say is that I was given the advantage of growing up without going to church. Many/most people are brought to church or at least raised with the "existence" of "God" from birth. If you are taught from birth that this deity exists and what he wants you to do, etc, then you are controlled. You live in fear of eternal punishment and you're more likely to behave even when no one is watching.
Like I said, the biggest manipulation the world has ever known.
I'm the bawss.
[Updated on: Fri, 28 October 2005 05:52] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #176698 is a reply to message #175124] |
Fri, 28 October 2005 05:57 |
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Crimson
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If you want to think of it on a smaller scale, look at shows like Cops, CSI, etc. Every time you watch them you get it drilled into your head that if you fuck up, the cops will find you and bring you down. Sometimes they even SAY it directly. No one ever gets away with anything on TV. This is exactly the same type of influence that this "God" concept is supposed to have on you.
I'm the bawss.
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #176705 is a reply to message #176698] |
Fri, 28 October 2005 06:52 |
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Goztow
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Goztoe |
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| Crimson wrote on Fri, 28 October 2005 08:57 |
If you want to think of it on a smaller scale, look at shows like Cops, CSI, etc. Every time you watch them you get it drilled into your head that if you fuck up, the cops will find you and bring you down. Sometimes they even SAY it directly. No one ever gets away with anything on TV. This is exactly the same type of influence that this "God" concept is supposed to have on you.
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Somehow, i think you're afraid of things you don't understand.
I see on TV that cops always get the bandits but I know damn well that hardly ever happens in real life.
Never go into a discussion like this with women though... you can't win... Nothing personal. 
You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
[Updated on: Fri, 28 October 2005 06:53] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Church of FSM [message #176710 is a reply to message #176657] |
Fri, 28 October 2005 07:24 |
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Oblivion165
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| Aircraftkiller wrote on Thu, 27 October 2005 16:53 |
Doesn't the rabid dismissal of religion equate to religion itself?
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No.
The dismissal of all religion doesnt equal religion. Thats like saying "Taking away all the apples equals apples."
WOL: Ob165ion Skype: Oblivion165 Yahoo Instant Messenger: CaptainJohn165
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