Home » General Discussions » Heated Discussions and Debates » Pointfix poll. Bug or Balance?
| Re: Pointfix poll. Bug or Balance? [message #415222 is a reply to message #415215] |
Wed, 23 December 2009 22:08   |
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R315r4z0r
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| Spoony wrote on Wed, 23 December 2009 23:30 |
actually, a ped nuke is on the same level as basekill since it trumps the points situation.
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It is, it does, I agree. Did I say otherwise?
Perhaps I did word it a bit confusingly. Perhaps I should have said it this way:
-Main victory condition: destroy enemy base
--Alternative: pedestal placement
-Secondary victory condition: points victory
| Spoony wrote on Wed, 23 December 2009 23:30 |
I think my "perspectives" have always held up pretty well.
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Ok? I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying that at Renegade's heart is a C&C game.
| Spoony wrote on Wed, 23 December 2009 23:30 |
If that's how you came to "deduce" it then there's something wrong with the method, since you arrived at the conclusion that ped nuke is equivalent to a points victory, both trumped by basekill. it's quite clearly the case that a ped nuke is equivalent to basekill, both trumping a points victory.
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No, you misread (which again, was probably my fault.)
I see ped placement as a secondary means to achieve base destruction. (Achieve the main objective a different way).
You asked me my opinion on that hypothetical opinion you detailed, which I did. You said, hypothetically, that the pedestal was the main objective in itself. That is what I disagreed with.
It's like calling the difference between using nuclear weapons in a war as opposed to using infantry and armor. I understand what you were trying to do with that statement in trying to get me into a position were I'd have to chose between two options that are physically different but are still the same in the longrun.
However, linking the difference between those two things and linking the difference between base destruction and points victory call upon two different forms of opinions.
1. Destruction vs Points calls upon the ideal of whether you believe you should focus on trying to score more than your opponent rather than trying to simply destroy their base.
2. Destruction via manual assault vs pedestal placement calls upon the ideal of which method you prefer to reach base destruction.
I would agree with a person who prefers pedestal placement over points victory but not over the idea that pedestal placement is the MAIN FOCUS of the game.
| Spoony wrote on Wed, 23 December 2009 23:30 |
i didn't suggest otherwise.
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I wasn't necessarily directing that at you. However, because of my indifference on the matter it's the only possible reason I can think of for people to keep on finding something to pick on in what I say. I feel like I'm the rope in a game of tug-o-war.
| Spoony wrote on Wed, 23 December 2009 23:30 |
"meeting everyone in the middle" is a common threat to these kind of debates, i find.
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You would be correct if this 'debate' wasn't about a video game. The point of a video game is to provide entertainment. As such, you should try your best to make sure everyone can reach some mutual agreement.
You aren't debating over taxes or employment, it's about a video game.
| Spoony wrote on Wed, 23 December 2009 23:30 |
and if you do think that basekill is crucial and points are worthless, then the pointsfix should still suit you simply because of the economy situation and the fact you are much less likely to win games by playing defensively... after all, with the original renegade points system, crippling the enemy's economy is actually a valid option, destroying their WF is actually an advantage, etc.
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I don't believe points are worthless... just not as important. I mean, they play a role but aren't exactly the 'main goal' if you get what I'm saying.
| Spoony wrote on Wed, 23 December 2009 23:30 |
what's more, when the points are added up at the end if bases are still standing, then with the original renegade points system, the points are a direct indicator of which team did more damage - in other words, which team came closer to the goal of basekill. when you let people get points for absolutely no reason, that clearly is not the case.
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I can agree with this as it will call more focus onto the battle's view rather than the points view.
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| Re: Pointfix poll. Bug or Balance? [message #415225 is a reply to message #415222] |
Wed, 23 December 2009 22:36 |
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Spoony
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| R315r4z0r wrote on Wed, 23 December 2009 23:08 |
1. Destruction vs Points calls upon the ideal of whether you believe you should focus on trying to score more than your opponent rather than trying to simply destroy their base.
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i'm not understanding your use of the words "rather than". again, points are a direct indicator of how much damage you've dealt to the most important targets. (at least, that's the case in the original renegade points system. it isn't the case when the modification that lets you get points for no reason is there)
| R315r4z0r wrote on Wed, 23 December 2009 23:08 |
| Spoony wrote on Wed, 23 December 2009 23:30 |
"meeting everyone in the middle" is a common threat to these kind of debates, i find.
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You would be correct if this 'debate' wasn't about a video game. The point of a video game is to provide entertainment. As such, you should try your best to make sure everyone can reach some mutual agreement.
You aren't debating over taxes or employment, it's about a video game.
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i was referring to the fact that the anti-pointsfix crowd are the most unappeasable group the world has seen since the late 30's.
first it was: "whoever wins the argument gets to use their points system"
the anti-pointsfix crowd lost all the arguments - badly - and then it became "everything you say might be right, spoony, and we've been wrong so many times you can barely count them all, but we like getting money for no reason"
so, several compromises were suggested to accommodate this, involving keeping the original points but increasing the cash flow. all of these were violently rejected.
then we (TT) just said ok, we'll give you everything you wanted. each community can choose for itself whether to use the original renegade points system or not. however, at the time i said that this would not appease them - the anti-pointsfix crowd would carry on acting as pathetically as they always had, carry on ruthlessly attacking anyone who disagrees with them (i turned out to be absolutely dead right; if anything the immature flaming from their camp increased)
what's more, they weren't even satisfied with that. they've also demanded that i shouldn't be allowed to use the original renegade points system in my own community, and they supported a small group of cheaters who tried subverting my authority in the league thanks to a campaign of lies and manipulation and rigged polls. they also went berserk at the suggestion that the original renegade points system ought to have priority on the official renegade ladder (given that the anti-pointsfix crowd has been soundly thrashed in every debate about the subject)
you want to try meeting these people in the middle? you're welcome to try. i went to UNBELIEVABLE lengths to attempt this (despite the fact all they ever did in return was insult me); look at what happened.
| R315r4z0r wrote on Wed, 23 December 2009 23:08 |
| Spoony wrote on Wed, 23 December 2009 23:30 |
what's more, when the points are added up at the end if bases are still standing, then with the original renegade points system, the points are a direct indicator of which team did more damage - in other words, which team came closer to the goal of basekill. when you let people get points for absolutely no reason, that clearly is not the case.
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I can agree with this as it will call more focus onto the battle's view rather than the points view.
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again, you've lost me at "rather than"
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[Updated on: Wed, 23 December 2009 22:37] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Pointfix poll. Bug or Balance? [message #415244 is a reply to message #414480] |
Thu, 24 December 2009 00:44 |
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R315r4z0r
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Points aren't so much directly related to base damage as you might be implying.
You can, for example, be winning the battle but have less points. It has happened to me in the past many times. I've lost games I was about to win via base destruction because the time ran out and the other team won because they had more points.
You can get points more ways than attacking the base, that's why they aren't a direct relationship to base damage.
In fact, probably the most common method of getting points involves the exact opposite of attacking the enemy base: repairing your own base. You can spend the entire game repairing and end up in the top 5 of a match.
This is what I was getting at when I said "rather than."
You can ignore the points counter and just attack the enemy base OR you can hunt down every last kill, repair every last structure and vehicle, lay/disarm mines in every nook and cranny, or basically do whatever it takes to score more than your opponent.
Now, I'm backing you up here. It is a good thing to implement. But realize, points are not in a direct relationship to damage dealt. The points fix will make it more fairly proportional, however it will not make it directly involved because there are just too many variable things that can happen that give off points without actually attacking the enemy base.
edit:
That last line sounded elitist and egotistical. lol. I mean to say you've swain my opinion.
[Updated on: Thu, 24 December 2009 00:47] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Pointfix poll. Bug or Balance? [message #415248 is a reply to message #415244] |
Thu, 24 December 2009 00:55 |
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Goztow
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| R315r4z0r wrote on Thu, 24 December 2009 08:44 |
Points aren't so much directly related to base damage as you might be implying.
You can, for example, be winning the battle but have less points. It has happened to me in the past many times. I've lost games I was about to win via base destruction because the time ran out and the other team won because they had more points.
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ONLY BECAUSE OF POINTSBUG. In 99 % of the times, this will not happen with pointsfix. Maybe you've stopped caring about points because they never made any sense due to pointsbug?
| R315r4z0r wrote on Thu, 24 December 2009 08:44 |
You can get points more ways than attacking the base, that's why they aren't a direct relationship to base damage.
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While this is true, with pointsfix the points for damaging a building are far more important than those for damaging anything else. Without pointsfix, the opposite is true.
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In fact, probably the most common method of getting points involves the exact opposite of attacking the enemy base: repairing your own base. You can spend the entire game repairing and end up in the top 5 of a match.
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Only if the others have they fingers up their ***.
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Now, I'm backing you up here. It is a good thing to implement. But realize, points are not in a direct relationship to damage dealt. The points fix will make it more fairly proportional, however it will not make it directly involved because there are just too many variable things that can happen that give off points without actually attacking the enemy base.
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If you mean not directly related to damaging buildings, then you're right. But see my previous reply for that.
Now to open it up a bit more: do you care about the credits you get in a game? Credits determine directly which units you can get and hence influence the odds of base destruction. Points are directly related to credits.
You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
[Updated on: Thu, 24 December 2009 00:56] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Pointfix poll. Bug or Balance? [message #415251 is a reply to message #414480] |
Thu, 24 December 2009 01:00 |
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R315r4z0r
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Round 3.
It's impossible to win, so I'm throwing in the towel.
What do you people want from me? To fly to your house and give you chocolate and an apology?
I can't say pointsfix is bad.
I can't say pointsfix is good.
I can't say I don't give a crap either way.
Why are you guys picking on ME of all people?! There are other people in this thread... so why ME?
Like I said: rope in a game of tug-o-war.
[Updated on: Thu, 24 December 2009 01:01] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Pointfix poll. Bug or Balance? [message #415253 is a reply to message #414480] |
Thu, 24 December 2009 01:13 |
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R315r4z0r
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Oh, no. I'm not taking it personally. I'm not some sort of elitist emofag.
I just find it funny how I got into the conversation with a very straight forward and topic evading observation.
But seriously, in this thread so far I've started in a neutral position. That started a war and then I moved over to agree with Spoony. In a few previous threads I've even argued against it, but that was short lived.
I've been an all sides of the argument, and yet there are people (from both sides) still yanking me one way or the other. (As in a pro-fix person urging me to be anti-fix (???) )
I don't know. It's all so confusing and funny at the same time.
Ahh, internet.
[Updated on: Thu, 24 December 2009 01:17] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Pointfix poll. Bug or Balance? [message #415257 is a reply to message #414480] |
Thu, 24 December 2009 01:54 |
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Hex
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I've had it running for around a month now on my server, from this out of all players on the server only 4 have said anything about it at all the rest have not noticed or just don't care about it.
My personal view of it that its a good thing, the example I give is this:
City flying, everyone knows the situation - you're GDI and Nod have destroyed everything except your Barracks and Refinery so you camp and protect what little you have left and over and over Nod tries and fails to destroy your remaining buildings
So with this normally GDI gain a huge amount of points (3000+) 95% of the time will win by time expired, do they deserve the win?, not really, so the same with the 'fix' and the scores are so much closer and GDI are required to work to win
With that said, I've been GDI in this situation and I've been more than happy to lose the map, people keep pointing of the simple fact of points over and over, imo the 'fix' also adds more fun and team play to the map.
Hex.
edit: is there even a public release of the fix?
| goztow wrote on Tue, 11 May 2010 08:00 |
If we had to ban all who ever cheated or ever created a cheat (obj3cts and such) then I don't think there would be many members left here (sad fact).
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| reborn wrote on Fri, 29 January 2010 23:37 |
std is for pro's. 
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[Updated on: Thu, 24 December 2009 01:56] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Pointfix poll. Bug or Balance? [message #415260 is a reply to message #414480] |
Thu, 24 December 2009 02:17 |
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Goztow
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Hex, your experience is the same as mine, we've been running the fix for over 2 years now already (first mentions of pointsfix on our forums go back to the beginning of 2008).
I don't think there has been a public release yet. But I have a publicly available link to the modification. I'm just not sure if BI is OK with me posting it.
You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
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| Re: Pointfix poll. Bug or Balance? [message #415264 is a reply to message #414480] |
Thu, 24 December 2009 02:42 |
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Goztow
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Goztoe |
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I know for a fact that EWD didn't think they had a standalone of it until he went to look for it for me a while back. Maybe you asked before this?
You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
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| Re: Pointfix poll. Bug or Balance? [message #415265 is a reply to message #414480] |
Thu, 24 December 2009 02:50 |
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Hex
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Registered: March 2004
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naw, (don't want to get off topic),I'll PM you
| goztow wrote on Tue, 11 May 2010 08:00 |
If we had to ban all who ever cheated or ever created a cheat (obj3cts and such) then I don't think there would be many members left here (sad fact).
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| reborn wrote on Fri, 29 January 2010 23:37 |
std is for pro's.
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[Updated on: Thu, 24 December 2009 02:53] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Pointfix poll. Bug or Balance? [message #415313 is a reply to message #415244] |
Thu, 24 December 2009 08:40 |
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Spoony
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| R315r4z0r wrote on Thu, 24 December 2009 01:44 |
Points aren't so much directly related to base damage as you might be implying.
You can, for example, be winning the battle but have less points. It has happened to me in the past many times. I've lost games I was about to win via base destruction because the time ran out and the other team won because they had more points.
You can get points more ways than attacking the base, that's why they aren't a direct relationship to base damage.
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this happened all the time in the bugged points system; it's quite rare with the original renegade points system.
buildings are by far the most valuable targets, so killing buildings or spending huge amounts of time hammering them with powerful tanks is gonna trump the enemy killing lots of tanks unless they kill A LOT of them, and i do mean a lot.
| R315r4z0r wrote on Thu, 24 December 2009 01:44 |
In fact, probably the most common method of getting points involves the exact opposite of attacking the enemy base: repairing your own base. You can spend the entire game repairing and end up in the top 5 of a match.
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but you won't win the match. repairing gets you half the points the enemy got for doing the damage in the first place.
| R315r4z0r wrote on Thu, 24 December 2009 01:44 |
Now, I'm backing you up here. It is a good thing to implement. But realize, points are not in a direct relationship to damage dealt.
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yes, they are. they really, really are. points gained are directly determined by two things and two things alone:
1. amount of damage dealt
2. the worth of the target. buildings are by far the "worthiest" targets. then you have all units. "worth" = credit cost.
| R315r4z0r wrote on Thu, 24 December 2009 01:44 |
Round 3.
It's impossible to win, so I'm throwing in the towel.
What do you people want from me? To fly to your house and give you chocolate and an apology?
I can't say pointsfix is bad.
I can't say pointsfix is good.
I can't say I don't give a crap either way.
Why are you guys picking on ME of all people?! There are other people in this thread... so why ME?
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"picking on you"? i'm just responding to what you say. in these debates, the clear majority of the people on the anti-pointsfix side (not that i'm suggesting you are actually on that side at all) don't even do us that courtesy.
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
- noun
1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful
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| Re: Pointfix poll. Bug or Balance? [message #415409 is a reply to message #415331] |
Thu, 24 December 2009 15:37 |
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Spoony
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| R315r4z0r wrote on Thu, 24 December 2009 11:11 |
"picking on me" was a poor choice of words, I suppose. My point is, however, why is it that no matter what side of the argument I'm on do you still have something to disagree with?
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well, what's the problem with that? it's been a civilised debate.
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
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1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful
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| Re: Pointfix poll. Bug or Balance? [message #415445 is a reply to message #414480] |
Thu, 24 December 2009 21:36 |
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Altzan
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If you're getting heat, it's because you're presenting valid points, and everyone knows logic is hated on teh interwebs.
I cannot imagine how the clockwork of the universe can exist without a clockmaker. ~Voltaire
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. I appreciate you as a person and respect your opinion and your will to stand up for it. But for me there's a sort of twist in your reasoning that I just cannot grasp.
