Home » General Discussions » Heated Discussions and Debates » Questions I would like to pose to athiests
| Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #442568] |
Thu, 13 January 2011 02:33  |
 |
reborn
Messages: 3231
Registered: September 2004
Location: uk - london
Karma: 0
|
General (3 Stars) |
|
|
If there is no deity that created the universe, how did the universe come to be? Specifically I am talking about the creation of something from nothing. If we are to belive the "Big Bang Theory" then where did the Two giant gas clouds come from? How do you get something from nothing? Where does all matter come from?
Why do so many people feel the need to worship?
If there is no signifigance to life, no meaning to it, you must reflect that life is nothing more than an experiance that will end, and therefor be a waste of time?
Are we as humans different to other animals? We have more intelligence and we have higher reasoning. Why are we the only ones?
If God does not exist, then can someone still hope for better times when in despair? Is hope just a random chance of roulette? There is no universal force of fairness and equality, no Karma?
|
|
|
|
| Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #442573 is a reply to message #442568] |
Thu, 13 January 2011 03:15  |
 |
Spoony
Messages: 3915
Registered: January 2006
Karma: 0
|
General (3 Stars)
Tactics & Strategies Moderator |
|
|
| reborn wrote on Thu, 13 January 2011 03:33 |
If there is no deity that created the universe, how did the universe come to be? Specifically I am talking about the creation of something from nothing. If we are to belive the "Big Bang Theory" then where did the Two giant gas clouds come from? How do you get something from nothing? Where does all matter come from?
|
I've no idea, but at least I'll be honest about the fact I've no idea. If someone thinks they know the answers to these questions, they'd better be ready for the follow-up questions.
| Quote: |
Why do so many people feel the need to worship?
|
I'm not sure, but if I can reply to the question with a question, why are so many people wrong in what they worship?
| Quote: |
If there is no signifigance to life, no meaning to it, you must reflect that life is nothing more than an experiance that will end, and therefor be a waste of time?
|
Whoah, whoah, whoah, steady on there. Since when was "significance" and "meaning" in life a synonym for a god? You're not saying that the only way a life could have "meaning" is if that meaning was determined by a super-powerful celestial dictator?
I do think that life is an experience and I do think it'll end, but I wouldn't use the words "nothing more" in that sentence and I certainly wouldn't call it a waste of time.
You have a child, don't you?
| Quote: |
Are we as humans different to other animals? We have more intelligence and we have higher reasoning. Why are we the only ones?
|
Your statement about intelligence and reasoning surely is one possible answer to the first question. The second one's an evolutionary matter.
| Quote: |
If God does not exist, then can someone still hope for better times when in despair?
|
Again, why are you equating these two concepts? You might as well swap "God" for "Kim Jong-Il" or "McDonalds"
| Quote: |
Is hope just a random chance of roulette?
|
How are you defining hope?
| Quote: |
There is no universal force of fairness and equality, no Karma?
|
Universal...? Well, the concept of God doesn't qualify as that. Read the bible - the character of Yahweh is absolutely monstrous.
If we were to suppose that there isn't a "universal force of fairness and equality", then that's all the more reason to create as fair a system of laws as we can.
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
- noun
1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful
|
|
|
|
| Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #442577 is a reply to message #442573] |
Thu, 13 January 2011 04:28 |
|
reborn
Messages: 3231
Registered: September 2004
Location: uk - london
Karma: 0
|
General (3 Stars) |
|
|
| Spoony wrote on Thu, 13 January 2011 05:15 |
I've no idea, but at least I'll be honest about the fact I've no idea. If someone thinks they know the answers to these questions, they'd better be ready for the follow-up questions.
|
What possible explanation could satisfy the question? Does this not make you ponder that there could be a God?
| Spoony wrote on Thu, 13 January 2011 05:15 |
I'm not sure, but if I can reply to the question with a question, why are so many people wrong in what they worship?
|
Perhaps that is not the important part of the question, perhaps it's the fact that so many people do worship that should be interesting?
| Spoony wrote on Thu, 13 January 2011 05:15 |
Whoah, whoah, whoah, steady on there. Since when was "significance" and "meaning" in life a synonym for a god? You're not saying that the only way a life could have "meaning" is if that meaning was determined by a super-powerful celestial dictator?
I do think that life is an experience and I do think it'll end, but I wouldn't use the words "nothing more" in that sentence and I certainly wouldn't call it a waste of time.
You have a child, don't you?
|
I'm saying what's the point of learning if what you gained is lost when you die. What will your experiances matter to anyone in a 1000 years time? If there is no real lesson plan for us, as there is no teacher, then why bother going to class?
I do have a child, she means more to me than anyone else. I would face anything for her well being. If I cease to exist when I die, then I would not be sad.
However, if you cannot reflect on your past (because you do not exist), then those experiances you had are lost.
Everything you take in is unique to you. All your experiences are interpretted by you, so are unique. If you cease to exist, then what was the point of you experiancing them if they are lost?
| Spoony wrote on Thu, 13 January 2011 05:15 |
Your statement about intelligence and reasoning surely is one possible answer to the first question. The second one's an evolutionary matter.
|
I was trying to say that Yes we are different to the other animals, but why are we the only ones with higher reasoning?
No other animals have been capable of gaining this level of reasoning over the period of time the Earth has existed?
| Spoony wrote on Thu, 13 January 2011 05:15 |
Again, why are you equating these two concepts? You might as well swap "God" for "Kim Jong-Il" or "McDonalds"
|
Because people can have faith in a God that their prayers will be heard. If it is just chance, then you just have to wait and see.
| Spoony wrote on Thu, 13 January 2011 05:15 |
How are you defining hope?
|
I am asking you how you define it.
You are in a room with a murderer holding a gun who hates you.
You hope he doesn't kill you. Do you hope for a 1 in a million chance, but realsie you're probably going to die as that is extremely far fetched?
| Spoony wrote on Thu, 13 January 2011 05:15 |
Universal...? Well, the concept of God doesn't qualify as that. Read the bible - the character of Yahweh is absolutely monstrous.
If we were to suppose that there isn't a "universal force of fairness and equality", then that's all the more reason to create as fair a system of laws as we can.
|
Yeah, you're right. But logically there are people that will miss out. Are you saying that some pople exist, have bad luck, and then die? There is no higher power at work that can save them, or causing them to have this existance so they can learn this hardship? They have this lot in life, experienace some shittyness, then just cease to exist? What's the point of their life?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #442582 is a reply to message #442579] |
Thu, 13 January 2011 05:11 |
|
reborn
Messages: 3231
Registered: September 2004
Location: uk - london
Karma: 0
|
General (3 Stars) |
|
|
| Herr Surth wrote on Thu, 13 January 2011 06:53 |
you're dumb. please stop being dumb.
|
I never said I believed, I was curious about the answers people had. I do not believe it is worth replying to you further, as you're just rude.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #442590 is a reply to message #442577] |
Thu, 13 January 2011 09:46 |
|
Spoony
Messages: 3915
Registered: January 2006
Karma: 0
|
General (3 Stars)
Tactics & Strategies Moderator |
|
|
| reborn wrote on Thu, 13 January 2011 05:28 |
What possible explanation could satisfy the question? Does this not make you ponder that there could be a God?
|
there are two problems with that. firstly that doesn't answer the question at all, it aggravates the question. now instead of having to explain the origin of a few blobs of hydrogen or whatever, you've got to explain the origin of a super-powerful entity capable of willing planets and stars and shit into existence, and creating life on a whim. this isn't progress.
secondly, the furthest this could get you is deism, not theism. you use the word God in singular with a capital G - anyone reading this is likely to think you're talking about the Judeo-Christian one, as opposed to say Thor or Zeus. the closest anybody's ever come to inferring the existence of a deity is by saying they don't know how something could have happened; there's an enormous logical gap between that (i.e. supposing that maybe some entity did it on purpose) and determining that entity's qualities (such as: "He listens to my prayers" or "He disapproves of homosexuals" or indeed thinking that He is the right word to use here)
btw, if you have an hour to spare, let me recommend the lecture A Universe from Nothing by Lawrence Krauss.
| Quote: |
| Spoony wrote on Thu, 13 January 2011 05:15 |
I'm not sure, but if I can reply to the question with a question, why are so many people wrong in what they worship?
|
Perhaps that is not the important part of the question, perhaps it's the fact that so many people do worship that should be interesting?
|
No, I think the follow-up question is more important. "Why do so many people think this?" Well, are they right to think it? We're fallible. The mind plays tricks, and there are people out there who profit by misleading us.
Here's another point. Your question implies that there's a majority of people in the world who believe in a god. Well, look at it another way. The majority of people in the world do not think Christianity is correct (and if you split Christianity down into its innumerable different sects, the numbers are even more damning). The majority of people in the world do not think Islam is correct. The majority of people in the world do not think Hinduism is correct. I could go on. There's no religion that cannot be inserted into that sentence.
| Quote: |
I'm saying what's the point of learning if what you gained is lost when you die. What will your experiances matter to anyone in a 1000 years time? If there is no real lesson plan for us, as there is no teacher, then why bother going to class?
|
Isn't life wonderful for its own sake? Doesn't it rather devalue human life to suppose that its meaning must be determined by a god we've got to obey, that we're being tested in preparation for an afterlife, etc?
What will my life matter to anyone in 1000 years time? I couldn't care less. Most people's endeavours won't matter in that timeframe. Maybe if someone develops a cure for cancer or something, but if you're going to say human life is a waste of time then it seems you shouldn't be impressed by that either.
| Quote: |
I do have a child, she means more to me than anyone else. I would face anything for her well being. If I cease to exist when I die, then I would not be sad.
|
There you go. Life for you has meaning and it has absolutely nothing to do with a god.
| Quote: |
However, if you cannot reflect on your past (because you do not exist), then those experiances you had are lost.
Everything you take in is unique to you. All your experiences are interpretted by you, so are unique. If you cease to exist, then what was the point of you experiancing them if they are lost?
|
this question's very easy to turn on its head. if death is the end, if there's no afterlife, then this life is all we have and it becomes even more precious, so let's make the best of it for ourselves, our children and our fellow creatures, and let's try to keep the world intact for succeeding generations.
if you think that's a waste of time, i invite you to say so.
| Quote: |
I was trying to say that Yes we are different to the other animals, but why are we the only ones with higher reasoning?
No other animals have been capable of gaining this level of reasoning over the period of time the Earth has existed?
|
once homo sapiens starts to develop intellectually, it becomes an upward spiral. figuring out how to use tools, standing upright which lets us develop bigger brains, etc... it's like saying once a child can read it'll learn stuff a lot faster.
| Quote: |
| Spoony wrote on Thu, 13 January 2011 05:15 |
Again, why are you equating these two concepts? You might as well swap "God" for "Kim Jong-Il" or "McDonalds"
|
Because people can have faith in a God that their prayers will be heard. If it is just chance, then you just have to wait and see.
|
or do something about it yourself instead of wasting your time praying
| Quote: |
| Spoony wrote on Thu, 13 January 2011 05:15 |
How are you defining hope?
|
I am asking you how you define it.
You are in a room with a murderer holding a gun who hates you.
You hope he doesn't kill you. Do you hope for a 1 in a million chance, but realsie you're probably going to die as that is extremely far fetched?
|
the chances that the police will burst in, or that i can talk my way out of it, or that i can live my life in such a way that nobody hates me enough that they want to risk a hefty prison sentence on my life's account... the chances of any of those are much much greater than one in a million, and they're probably a lot greater than the odds that an intervening God exists.
however, there's a problem with the 3rd option - that i can live my life in such a way that nobody hates me that much. the problem with that is there are people in the world who loathe everyone here with a level of murderous bloodthirst that none of us really appreciate. and why? religion.
| Quote: |
Yeah, you're right. But logically there are people that will miss out. Are you saying that some pople exist, have bad luck, and then die? There is no higher power at work that can save them, or causing them to have this existance so they can learn this hardship? They have this lot in life, experienace some shittyness, then just cease to exist? What's the point of their life?
|
certainly the governments in place could be better than they are (although it absolutely must be said that governments work better in every way when religion is kept out of them), but they work a shitload better than the concept of god would. see my earlier statement about the sheer monstrousness of the depiction of Yahweh in the bible. if what christians keep saying is true, people like me are going to be tortured for ever just for what we think. well, even the poor people of North Korea have a better deal than that.
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
- noun
1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #442601 is a reply to message #442568] |
Thu, 13 January 2011 12:36 |
Pyr0man1c
Messages: 186
Registered: April 2009
Karma: 0
|
Recruit |
|
|
It's more along the lines of a singularity 'exploding', so the question is what created the singularity OR what caused the singularity to form.
Herr suth has had the best post here.
"Sapere Aude- Dare to be wise"
| AmunRa |
and its all this "drama" that will one day end renegade...
|
Quotes| v00d00 |
A question regarding RenGuard. Because it's a client/server application, what will stop the legions of people who cheat, and can crack apps, from reverse engineering it down to it's core protocol / encryption (which I'll assume it has), and duplicating it, so that they have their own client which responds to the server with all the correct info for an unpatched Renegade, but in fact is patched.
Personally, I think you should write a server-side only anti-cheat, which hooks the networking routines in Renegade. From there, using either the help of your staff who worked on creating Renegade, or from knowledge aquired while working with the network code in Renegade, create a system to monitor hit locations (did they REALLY hit, based on calculations by the anti-cheat (stopping BH)), how much damage are they claiming, vs how much damage their currently selected weapon really does, etc.
Then, add rate-of-fire checking, complete w/ lag tolerance (since lagged client will of course, upon delag, seem to fire faster, etc), and option to simply "edit" the incoming packets, to filter out the cheat (reduce damage, stop bullets, etc), or kick-ban the cheater (admins decision, based on anti cheat config).
Is it just me, or does that make more sense?
The flaw to Renegade of course, which is the core to the cheats, is that unlike most other games, Renegade lets the CLIENT decide hit locations, damage, RoF, etc. Vs others which say, "ok, the client fired their pistol along this trajectory. Did they hit something? How much damage did they do to that target if so. Report findings to clients".
My only concern, is that there will be alot more teams of people ripping apart the hard work of your small team, and undoing what you have done. Can you keep up writing fixes / completely rewriting the protocol to counter them once they have created their OWN complete anti-RenGuard client? If not, consider the server-side only method, and solve it once and for all, with the only version changes being to fix bugs, and not complete rewrites which will really piss admins off (if it takes this long for the initial, how long after the cheaters create their own client to counter it will your rewrite take to do?).
- v00d00
|
| ELiT3FLyR |
ill say this again to all the TT people actually working on the patch. all you have to do is fix the bugs in the game. This is your role. dont get involved in a pointfix debate that you can never win (spoony has never managed to win one and hes a decent player) nor bother suggesting solutions for the faults in pointfix. just fix the damn bugs and you will all be remmebered as renegade heroes.
|
[Updated on: Thu, 13 January 2011 12:37] Report message to a moderator |
|
|
|
| Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #442606 is a reply to message #442568] |
Thu, 13 January 2011 14:14 |
Pyr0man1c
Messages: 186
Registered: April 2009
Karma: 0
|
Recruit |
|
|
| Quote: |
A rather weird theory would be to say that the Universe really just holds a circle of events. For example a million trillion days from now in this universe, I will be sitting on my chair typing this essay. You could also say that a million trillion days ago in the universe I will be sitting down on this chair typing out this essay; the world exists in such a way that the universe doesn't have to literally add days on, time just moves around the cycle.{so time is infinite}
|
I wrote this a while back, it's part of an essay so it might seem a bit out of context. Have you ever heard of the "big crunch" theory? That would explain how the universe would end. Another "big bang" would occur and everything would happen again. The thing about the Big Bang Theory is that if any variable such as gravity was even slightly different, the universe would not be able to hold life.
For example if the value of gravity was too high, stars would not form. If it was too low matter would float out from the blast and nothing would happen. So it's questionable how in this one universe life exists, by something as "random" as the big bang.
Edit:sorry for the double post
"Sapere Aude- Dare to be wise"
| AmunRa |
and its all this "drama" that will one day end renegade...
|
Quotes| v00d00 |
A question regarding RenGuard. Because it's a client/server application, what will stop the legions of people who cheat, and can crack apps, from reverse engineering it down to it's core protocol / encryption (which I'll assume it has), and duplicating it, so that they have their own client which responds to the server with all the correct info for an unpatched Renegade, but in fact is patched.
Personally, I think you should write a server-side only anti-cheat, which hooks the networking routines in Renegade. From there, using either the help of your staff who worked on creating Renegade, or from knowledge aquired while working with the network code in Renegade, create a system to monitor hit locations (did they REALLY hit, based on calculations by the anti-cheat (stopping BH)), how much damage are they claiming, vs how much damage their currently selected weapon really does, etc.
Then, add rate-of-fire checking, complete w/ lag tolerance (since lagged client will of course, upon delag, seem to fire faster, etc), and option to simply "edit" the incoming packets, to filter out the cheat (reduce damage, stop bullets, etc), or kick-ban the cheater (admins decision, based on anti cheat config).
Is it just me, or does that make more sense?
The flaw to Renegade of course, which is the core to the cheats, is that unlike most other games, Renegade lets the CLIENT decide hit locations, damage, RoF, etc. Vs others which say, "ok, the client fired their pistol along this trajectory. Did they hit something? How much damage did they do to that target if so. Report findings to clients".
My only concern, is that there will be alot more teams of people ripping apart the hard work of your small team, and undoing what you have done. Can you keep up writing fixes / completely rewriting the protocol to counter them once they have created their OWN complete anti-RenGuard client? If not, consider the server-side only method, and solve it once and for all, with the only version changes being to fix bugs, and not complete rewrites which will really piss admins off (if it takes this long for the initial, how long after the cheaters create their own client to counter it will your rewrite take to do?).
- v00d00
|
| ELiT3FLyR |
ill say this again to all the TT people actually working on the patch. all you have to do is fix the bugs in the game. This is your role. dont get involved in a pointfix debate that you can never win (spoony has never managed to win one and hes a decent player) nor bother suggesting solutions for the faults in pointfix. just fix the damn bugs and you will all be remmebered as renegade heroes.
|
[Updated on: Thu, 13 January 2011 14:15] Report message to a moderator |
|
|
|
| Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #442607 is a reply to message #442568] |
Thu, 13 January 2011 15:19 |
 |
R315r4z0r
Messages: 3836
Registered: March 2005
Location: New York
Karma: 0
|
General (3 Stars) |
|
|
They say that for a lot of things. "If concentration of THIS was just a little bit less or a little bit more, life couldn't be sustained."
However, when you think about it, it isn't really that amazing that the concentration of forces and elements are so perfect to hold life.
Why? Because it's only measuring life by our standards of living.
If you support the theory of evolution, then reason stands that even if various concentrations of universal forces and matter were totally different from what they actually are, life could have just as easily been created... however they would be living under those circumstances saying to themselves "wow, if our planet had even the slightest bit of oxygen, we could have never had a chance at life!"
And that doesn't just count for life forms, it would also count for stars and planets as well. Perhaps in another universe, stars don't exist because they couldn't be created. That doesn't mean life couldn't have found another way. Sure, it would mean that OUR life would be impossible (or perhaps even the stability of OUR universe as we know it) but it doesn't mean that some other way for life to develop couldn't have taken place instead.
|
|
|
|
| Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #442612 is a reply to message #442568] |
Thu, 13 January 2011 15:48 |
appshot
Messages: 83
Registered: August 2006
Karma: 0
|
Recruit |
|
|
|
the universe creation is a circular argument. Some believe that God/Gods created it, but then the underlying question is who created him/her? On the other hand, if it wasn't God, who was it, someone had to precede and create the universe, and so who/what created him? and who/what created the thing who/what created the universe? But in the end, something had to create the universe, an thus some type of higher being so atheists lose on this debate. Logic fails them to win on this argument.
|
|
|
|
| Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #442614 is a reply to message #442568] |
Thu, 13 January 2011 16:01 |
|
R315r4z0r
Messages: 3836
Registered: March 2005
Location: New York
Karma: 0
|
General (3 Stars) |
|
|
| appshot wrote on Thu, 13 January 2011 17:48 |
...On the other hand, if it wasn't God, who was it, someone had to precede and create the universe...
|
Why do you assume that "someone" had to precede everything? Why does it have to have been a person?
A person doesn't have to be the thing to set everything into motion... so there is no logical reason to assume anything about some "higher being."
[Updated on: Thu, 13 January 2011 16:03] Report message to a moderator |
|
|
|
| Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #442617 is a reply to message #442568] |
Thu, 13 January 2011 16:07 |
Pyr0man1c
Messages: 186
Registered: April 2009
Karma: 0
|
Recruit |
|
|
@R3: you make a good point, but I doubt any one man, or even a team of scientists could tell us if intelligent life is possible by using completely different elements than the ones we are made of. It really is more of a scientific question than a philosophical one though.
@appshot: it could perhaps be normal for matter to exist. Matter(well, energy) cannot be created or destroyed, so either the laws of physics CAN change, and somehow energy was created, or energy has existed for an infinite time. (assuming there is no god). However actual infinitude are thought to be logically impossible (check the internets), unless it goes in a loop.
Edit: R3: a conscious being can create the universe for intelligent life, a random event is less likely to do so.
Question: how less likely?
"Sapere Aude- Dare to be wise"
| AmunRa |
and its all this "drama" that will one day end renegade...
|
Quotes| v00d00 |
A question regarding RenGuard. Because it's a client/server application, what will stop the legions of people who cheat, and can crack apps, from reverse engineering it down to it's core protocol / encryption (which I'll assume it has), and duplicating it, so that they have their own client which responds to the server with all the correct info for an unpatched Renegade, but in fact is patched.
Personally, I think you should write a server-side only anti-cheat, which hooks the networking routines in Renegade. From there, using either the help of your staff who worked on creating Renegade, or from knowledge aquired while working with the network code in Renegade, create a system to monitor hit locations (did they REALLY hit, based on calculations by the anti-cheat (stopping BH)), how much damage are they claiming, vs how much damage their currently selected weapon really does, etc.
Then, add rate-of-fire checking, complete w/ lag tolerance (since lagged client will of course, upon delag, seem to fire faster, etc), and option to simply "edit" the incoming packets, to filter out the cheat (reduce damage, stop bullets, etc), or kick-ban the cheater (admins decision, based on anti cheat config).
Is it just me, or does that make more sense?
The flaw to Renegade of course, which is the core to the cheats, is that unlike most other games, Renegade lets the CLIENT decide hit locations, damage, RoF, etc. Vs others which say, "ok, the client fired their pistol along this trajectory. Did they hit something? How much damage did they do to that target if so. Report findings to clients".
My only concern, is that there will be alot more teams of people ripping apart the hard work of your small team, and undoing what you have done. Can you keep up writing fixes / completely rewriting the protocol to counter them once they have created their OWN complete anti-RenGuard client? If not, consider the server-side only method, and solve it once and for all, with the only version changes being to fix bugs, and not complete rewrites which will really piss admins off (if it takes this long for the initial, how long after the cheaters create their own client to counter it will your rewrite take to do?).
- v00d00
|
| ELiT3FLyR |
ill say this again to all the TT people actually working on the patch. all you have to do is fix the bugs in the game. This is your role. dont get involved in a pointfix debate that you can never win (spoony has never managed to win one and hes a decent player) nor bother suggesting solutions for the faults in pointfix. just fix the damn bugs and you will all be remmebered as renegade heroes.
|
[Updated on: Thu, 13 January 2011 16:11] Report message to a moderator |
|
|
|
| Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #442621 is a reply to message #442568] |
Thu, 13 January 2011 16:53 |
|
R315r4z0r
Messages: 3836
Registered: March 2005
Location: New York
Karma: 0
|
General (3 Stars) |
|
|
Less likely, sure... but not impossible.
But to be honest, there really is no point in debating it. No matter what the answer is, our minds can't comprehend it (at least in this point in time). It's like trying to imagine what an object would look like without any color or shade. It isn't possible for our minds to do that.
[Updated on: Thu, 13 January 2011 16:54] Report message to a moderator |
|
|
|
| Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #442625 is a reply to message #442600] |
Thu, 13 January 2011 17:07 |
 |
Dover
Messages: 2547
Registered: March 2006
Location: Monterey, California
Karma: 0
|
General (2 Stars) |
|
|
| R315r4z0r wrote on Thu, 13 January 2011 11:26 |
I never believed the theory of 'the big bang.'
IMO, it just contradicts itself. Nothing within nothing creates something that creates everything? What?
|
Makes much more sense than the idea of some ancient boat-builder going around and gathering a male and female of every species of creature from the far reaches of the Earth, including the millions of different varieties of insects, then keeping them all alive and obedient on his aforementioned boat for over a month.
One of the main reason the "big bang" theory holds and water is because it at least makes an attempt to understand the science and physics behind it, your oversimplified interpretation not withstanding. It makes itself accountable to something, rather than just copping out with "Let there be light".
Of course, human knowledge is incomplete, and nobody really -knows- how existence came to exist. I'm not sure anyone reasonable would ever claim otherwise. It's just simply the best explanation we have right now given our current level of information. Which is another reason why the big bang theory is awesome. If ever one day we can prove it's wrong, we just throw it out. No burning at the stake required.
| DarkDemin wrote on Thu, 03 August 2006 19:19 |
Remember kids the internet is serious business.
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #442626 is a reply to message #442617] |
Thu, 13 January 2011 17:16 |
|
Dover
Messages: 2547
Registered: March 2006
Location: Monterey, California
Karma: 0
|
General (2 Stars) |
|
|
| Pyr0man1c wrote on Thu, 13 January 2011 15:07 |
@appshot: it could perhaps be normal for matter to exist. Matter(well, energy) cannot be created or destroyed, so either the laws of physics CAN change, and somehow energy was created, or energy has existed for an infinite time. (assuming there is no god). However actual infinitude are thought to be logically impossible (check the internets), unless it goes in a loop.
|
We already know the laws of physics as we know them haven't always held true. In order for the universe to reach the (known) size it is now, matter would have to have traveled at faster than the speed of light shortly after (Our estimated time of) the "big bang".
As for your infinite loop, it's very possible. One possible theory is the "Closed Universe" theory, which assumes that the force of gravity is strong enough to slow down and eventually reverse the expansion of the universe (As opposed to "Open Universe" theories that say that the force of gravity is NOT strong enough to overcome the expansion of the universe, and that the the universe is a one-shot affair). This would mean that, at "the end of time", the universe will eventually re-condense into another super-singularity and the big bang will repeat itself all over again. It doesn't explain how it all came into being in the first place, but there is something poetic about it.
| DarkDemin wrote on Thu, 03 August 2006 19:19 |
Remember kids the internet is serious business.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #442629 is a reply to message #442568] |
Thu, 13 January 2011 17:52 |
|
Spoony
Messages: 3915
Registered: January 2006
Karma: 0
|
General (3 Stars)
Tactics & Strategies Moderator |
|
|
anyone watched the lecture i linked to?
sum total of the universe is zero thanks to negative energy. matter and energy are interchangeable. so if he's right, the universe can come from nothing.
| Quote: |
the universe creation is a circular argument. Some believe that God/Gods created it, but then the underlying question is who created him/her? On the other hand, if it wasn't God, who was it, someone had to precede and create the universe, and so who/what created him? and who/what created the thing who/what created the universe? But in the end, something had to create the universe, an thus some type of higher being so atheists lose on this debate. Logic fails them to win on this argument.
|
you misunderstand atheism. it's a rejection of theism, not deism. theism is the claim that not only is there a god(s) but that we can know and indeed do know a lot of stuff about it/them, e.g. that he listens to our prayers and disapproves of homosexuality. to be an atheist all you need to really do is reject the VERY SPECIFIC claims made by the religious.
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
- noun
1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful
|
|
|
|
| Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #442630 is a reply to message #442629] |
Thu, 13 January 2011 18:19 |
|
R315r4z0r
Messages: 3836
Registered: March 2005
Location: New York
Karma: 0
|
General (3 Stars) |
|
|
| Spoony wrote on Thu, 13 January 2011 19:52 |
anyone watched the lecture i linked to?
sum total of the universe is zero thanks to negative energy. matter and energy are interchangeable. so if he's right, the universe can come from nothing.
|
I think it's the other way around... but I have no experience in this so correct me if I'm wrong.
1 + -1 = 0. With energy plus negative energy you get nothing, correct?
But doesn't that only work in one way? You can't add or subtract something from nothing and get something, but you can add or subtract something and something to get nothing.
0 + 0 - 0 = 0
and
0 / X = ?????
but
1 - 1 = 0
Let's say that 1000 is the value of all energy in the universe. Let's also say that -1000 is the value of all negative energy. If you combine these two entities into one, you get nothing in return. However, how do you go about doing that in the other direction?
That theory shows that it's possible to obtain nothing by combining everything. However, what it doesn't explain is how to divide nothing to gain something.
[Updated on: Thu, 13 January 2011 18:28] Report message to a moderator |
|
|
|
| Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #442631 is a reply to message #442629] |
Thu, 13 January 2011 18:20 |
grant89uk
Messages: 229
Registered: August 2006
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Karma: 0
|
Recruit |
|
|
| Spoony wrote on Fri, 14 January 2011 00:52 |
anyone watched the lecture i linked to?
sum total of the universe is zero thanks to negative energy. matter and energy are interchangeable. so if he's right, the universe can come from nothing.
| Quote: |
the universe creation is a circular argument. Some believe that God/Gods created it, but then the underlying question is who created him/her? On the other hand, if it wasn't God, who was it, someone had to precede and create the universe, and so who/what created him? and who/what created the thing who/what created the universe? But in the end, something had to create the universe, an thus some type of higher being so atheists lose on this debate. Logic fails them to win on this argument.
|
you misunderstand atheism. it's a rejection of theism, not deism. theism is the claim that not only is there a god(s) but that we can know and indeed do know a lot of stuff about it/them, e.g. that he listens to our prayers and disapproves of homosexuality. to be an atheist all you need to really do is reject the VERY SPECIFIC claims made by the religious.
|
Yeah I watched it all, I personally find things on astronomy very interesting so it was actually time well spent.
However like the lecturer said there are people who agree with him and people who disagree with him. Not just random people who know very little about the subject its people who are very respected in their fields. So it all comes down to what you personally think.
Good watch though.
[Updated on: Thu, 13 January 2011 18:24] Report message to a moderator |
|
|
|
| Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #442641 is a reply to message #442568] |
Fri, 14 January 2011 03:45 |
_SSnipe_
Messages: 4121
Registered: May 2007
Location: Riverside Southern Califo...
Karma: 0
|
General (4 Stars) |
|
|
I always thought of it this way, if there is a god, why take your chances? if there is not a god then ok but if there is, its to late your fucked when you die, but its more then that its a faith that brings you happiness and most people who I know who are religious are good hard working people, while most people who dont believe him so they think they can create all chaos they want which led to horrible things. Yes alot of people take religion and turn it into something bad cults, terrorist, but we only notice them for that reason while more of the world has crime create form the ones who don't believe.
On a side note, what if, just if the big bang was real, the way we were created and evolved was real, but what if god was behind all of that.
[Updated on: Fri, 14 January 2011 03:46] Report message to a moderator |
|
|
|
| Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #442643 is a reply to message #442641] |
Fri, 14 January 2011 04:02 |
|
Spoony
Messages: 3915
Registered: January 2006
Karma: 0
|
General (3 Stars)
Tactics & Strategies Moderator |
|
|
| (SSnipe) -BLU3Y3Z- wrote on Fri, 14 January 2011 04:45 |
I always thought of it this way, if there is a god, why take your chances? if there is not a god then ok but if there is, its to late your fucked when you die
|
this is what religion always boils down to in the end... threats.
by "take your chances" i presume you mean being honest about having doubts about the extremely specific claims made by religion, bearing in mind the complete lack of evidence for them.
secondly, belief isn't a choice. i don't know how your mind works, but i can't choose to believe something even if i'm threatened with punishment if i don't.
thirdly, there are several contradictory religions who make this threat. the pope says only catholics are going to heaven and other non-catholic christians are going to hell with all the other atheists. some protestant churches say the same thing in reverse. islam says all non-muslims are going to hell. who's right, blu3y3z? which of these if any are correct, and which are liars and frauds?
fourthly, you're saying this god of yours is going to torture people just for not being convinced of his existence (again, see above re: complete lack of evidence). what a colossal prick. what a cruel, merciless monster this god of yours seems to be. you want to worship something as evil as that? what does this say about you?
| Quote: |
but its more then that its a faith that brings you happiness and most people who I know who are religious are good hard working people, while most people who dont believe him so they think they can create all chaos they want which led to horrible things. Yes alot of people take religion and turn it into something bad cults, terrorist, but we only notice them for that reason while more of the world has crime create form the ones who don't believe.
|
interesting you say that. you're pro-torture and anti-freedom of religion, and the reason you take these extraordinary positions is religion. you wouldn't think that if it wasn't for religion, surely.
you talk about people "taking religion and turning it into cults and terrorists". well, i presume you consider yourself a moderate, yet you're anti-freedom of religion and pro-torture as a punishment for not being the right religion. as for the fundamentalists, i hope you're aware that islamic jihadism isn't a misinterpretation or corruption of the quran and hadith. i invite you to read them.
"most people don't believe him so they think they can create all chaos they want" - the religious always like to find a hidden agenda for anyone who doesn't believe their extremely specific claims. it can't be because you've got fuck all evidence or because your holy book is revolting, can it?
"more of the world has crime create form the ones who don't believe."
in america, the proportion of prison inmates who are atheists is significantly lower than the proportion of atheists in the free population. i wouldn't necessarily argue that this proves anything, but you said it. as for the rest of the world, the more secular countries always do best in societal health - low crime, good education, good health, low teenage pregnancy etc.
| Quote: |
On a side note, what if, just if the big bang was real, the way we were created and evolved was real, but what if god was behind all of that.
|
like i said, you take the problem and you grossly multiply it. you go from having to explain the origin of a few blobs of hydrogen or whatever, to having to explain the origin of an enormously powerful creature. this is not progress.
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
- noun
1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful
|
|
|
|
|
|
Goto Forum:
Current Time: Fri Nov 22 04:08:18 MST 2024
Total time taken to generate the page: 0.01700 seconds
|
Search
Help
Members
Register
Login
Home
