Home » Tiberian Technologies / Blackhand Studios » Tiberian Technologies Forum » Fixing... Points?
| Fixing... Points? [message #346858] |
Fri, 15 August 2008 14:52  |
kong009
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Location: Oklahoma
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Hey Guys,
I want to say thanks for all the time and effort you've spent on making this new patch for the game we all play and enjoy. I am looking forward to the improved anti-cheat measures and enhanced performance.
I agree with fixing, if possible, all the "bugs" and "glitches" you can find. Chuck Norris says this:
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If something is identified as a bug, glitch, or exploit, and it's either common sense or can be proven it is such, I think we should all agree to add it to the fix (if possible) list no matter what (unless it's a seriously insignificant bug) and not argue about what we want, because that guarantees fighting. A bug is a bug and should be corrected. Something that wasn't intended to be should not be, and that's what the patch is about. The points fix is an exception, but I still say make it mandatory and leave the exclusion of the fix for a separate "points unfix.dll" so that it at least has an alternative since it is such a big focus for everyone, but it is technically a bug so it should be fixed within the patch itself.
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I agree with everything, and I daresay there isn't anyone who doesn't. But penalizing servers who choose to use "unfix.dll" by excluding them from the main ladder is what I've been hearing from Spoony over in the Jelly forums, and I absolutely don't understand that at all.
Why is it necessary to force the pointsfix onto servers like this? By including it in the patch and in turn making the patch mandatory for all servers, then there won't be any servers left without the pointsfix, which leaves no alternative.
If you are indeed promoting improved gameplay, I think you should really consider making changes to the pointsfix as it is now before it is fully implimented. Spoony has proposed a "Half-Pointsfix" that would potentially seperate points and credits earned from shooting at a green-health tank (sorry Spoony if I said something about it before you had a chance to ask about it yourself). This is the perfect solution, and I hope you all will try to persue it.
Thanks for taking the time to read this post.
kong009
Jelly-Server Moderator
[Updated on: Fri, 15 August 2008 14:54] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #346859 is a reply to message #346858] |
Fri, 15 August 2008 15:15  |
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saberhawk
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| kong009 wrote on Fri, 15 August 2008 16:52 |
Hey Guys,
I want to say thanks for all the time and effort you've spent on making this new patch for the game we all play and enjoy. I am looking forward to the improved anti-cheat measures and enhanced performance.
I agree with fixing, if possible, all the "bugs" and "glitches" you can find. Chuck Norris says this:
| Quote: |
If something is identified as a bug, glitch, or exploit, and it's either common sense or can be proven it is such, I think we should all agree to add it to the fix (if possible) list no matter what (unless it's a seriously insignificant bug) and not argue about what we want, because that guarantees fighting. A bug is a bug and should be corrected. Something that wasn't intended to be should not be, and that's what the patch is about. The points fix is an exception, but I still say make it mandatory and leave the exclusion of the fix for a separate "points unfix.dll" so that it at least has an alternative since it is such a big focus for everyone, but it is technically a bug so it should be fixed within the patch itself.
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I agree with everything, and I daresay there isn't anyone who doesn't. But penalizing servers who choose to use "unfix.dll" by excluding them from the main ladder is what I've been hearing from Spoony over in the Jelly forums, and I absolutely don't understand that at all.
Why is it necessary to force the pointsfix onto servers like this? By including it in the patch and in turn making the patch mandatory for all servers, then there won't be any servers left without the pointsfix, which leaves no alternative.
If you are indeed promoting improved gameplay, I think you should really consider making changes to the pointsfix as it is now before it is fully implimented. Spoony has proposed a "Half-Pointsfix" that would potentially seperate points and credits earned from shooting at a green-health tank (sorry Spoony if I said something about it before you had a chance to ask about it yourself). This is the perfect solution, and I hope you all will try to persue it.
Thanks for taking the time to read this post.
kong009
Jelly-Server Moderator
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In order for the ladder to be function correctly as ladder of skill, variables other than skill need to be constrained. Points given is one of those variables. If we do not exclude *all* servers that have any modification to the number of points given, the ladder could be exploited by servers which give 10000 points per damage point given.
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #346861 is a reply to message #346858] |
Fri, 15 August 2008 15:19 |
kong009
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This argument is irrelevant if you seperate points and credits. What I'm saying is finding a way to limit points as in the pointsfix but leave credits pre-pointsfix.
Like I said, all I want is for that possibility to be considered.
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #346862 is a reply to message #346861] |
Fri, 15 August 2008 15:30 |
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saberhawk
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| kong009 wrote on Fri, 15 August 2008 17:19 |
This argument is irrelevant if you seperate points and credits. What I'm saying is finding a way to limit points as in the pointsfix but leave credits pre-pointsfix.
Like I said, all I want is for that possibility to be considered.
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The argument then becomes "Why is that Havoc getting 100 credits when he's doing 1 damage and I'm getting 50 credits for 100 damage?" (Yes, the numbers are wrong, but this is only an example.) This points<->credits unbalance would lead to players being scolded for buying a strong vehicle pretty much the same way they are now, except now for giving the enemy credits.
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #346865 is a reply to message #346858] |
Fri, 15 August 2008 15:49 |
kong009
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What is wrong with people getting more credits? Can't we agree that more credits = more fun = more players in the server?
Sounds to me like you are sacrificing objectivity for a too-strict policy that is being objected to by a vast majority of the players that still play this game.
Why even bother having forums if you won't even consider what I'm saying and evaluating the potential of a "half-fix?"
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #346867 is a reply to message #346865] |
Fri, 15 August 2008 16:02 |
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saberhawk
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| kong009 wrote on Fri, 15 August 2008 17:49 |
What is wrong with people getting more credits? Can't we agree that more credits = more fun = more players in the server?
Sounds to me like you are sacrificing objectivity for a too-strict policy that is being objected to by a vast majority of the players that still play this game.
Why even bother having forums if you won't even consider what I'm saying and evaluating the potential of a "half-fix?"
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There's nothing wrong with people earning more credits by playing the game.
The issue is with the players that are constantly grinding as a Havoc or Sakura shooting at heavily armored vehicles to "earn" credits and it leads to other adopting the same passive tactics resulting in boring games where a majority of the people aren't really helping their team to win...
Earning credits in proportion to the amount of damage you do discourages that "tactic" and leads to more actual teamwork.
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #346871 is a reply to message #346858] |
Fri, 15 August 2008 16:27 |
kong009
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So that's it then? You won't entertain the idea or even commit to doing some testing to that effect? There are many other ways to confront the obvious unpopularity of the pointsfix to make it a little more appealing, I am merely suggesting one I think might be the best.
How else do you plan to make the community feel better about it, if at all? Because right now all you have to do is take a look around at your forums and ours to see that people are unhappy.
If you think fixing a few bugs and glitches that we've played the game with for the last six years is a fair trade off for DRASTICALLY changing the gameplay, I think you might want to ascertain if that is a valid assumption, as I have certainly not seen any of you ask the community anything to that effect.
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #346879 is a reply to message #346871] |
Fri, 15 August 2008 16:46 |
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Goztow
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Goztoe |
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If the points are really the same, then I don't really see a problem to this. If a server starts with 350 starting credits, u have the same kind of "falsification" of the ladder. We shouldn't go all to extreme. So as long as gained points are the same, I wouldn't mind it.
You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #346881 is a reply to message #346858] |
Fri, 15 August 2008 16:50 |
StealthEye
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The half points fix does nothing more than half fix it. It's still bugged, the same arguments apply, just half as much because the bug is cut in half. There is no difference at all in our arguments. It's a compromise that is worse than either of the original options, so why even consider it? I would rather have a full points fix or none at all, but not a half solution.
I don't agree with banning points fix servers from the ladder unless everything that is not vanilla renegade with predefined settings is not counted towards the ladder. There are more important factors in the points calculation that cause unfairness in the ladder that make the changes due to the points fix insignificant. With the current ladder system, and probably with future ladder system as well.
BlackIntel admin/founder/coder
Please visit http://www.blackintel.org/
[Updated on: Fri, 15 August 2008 16:52] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #346883 is a reply to message #346859] |
Fri, 15 August 2008 17:19 |
msgtpain
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| Saberhawk wrote on Fri, 15 August 2008 18:15 |
In order for the ladder to be function correctly as ladder of skill, variables other than skill need to be constrained. Points given is one of those variables. If we do not exclude *all* servers that have any modification to the number of points given, the ladder could be exploited by servers which give 10000 points per damage point given.
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So, just out of curiosity, because I don't think I've seen the question or read the reply (forgive me if it's already out there)... It "seems" to me that the sole intent of this pointsfix is to make the ladder "fair".. so all servers reporting to it are on a level playing field.
If this is true, I can assume that you will also require all servers to have the exact same 'other' settings. i.e.;
Player Count
Starting Credits
Time Limit
Weapons Drop
Special Crates
Ped Beacon
Donate restrictions
etc.
As well as make them all conform to the same rules such as "allow or disallow hill camping on hourglass", etc.
I can only assume that your reply will be a resounding "yes" to these questions, as any single one of them can have an impact on how a player may score in any game, on any server.
Disarming a beacon provides 300 points to the disarmer, and robs the person planting it of up to 750 points. How can you legitimately "ask the community" if you should fix outside PT's, knowing full well that it is INDEED a bug, and it drastically affects both the potential outcome of a game as well as the individual points of the players involved?
Your arguments about all of these items seem just a little disingenuous and more self serving to me, sorry.
Edit Below------
I didnt' read far enough I guess... You pretty much answered my own questions before I even asked them.
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The issue is with the players that are constantly grinding as a Havoc or Sakura shooting at heavily armored vehicles to "earn" credits and it leads to other adopting the same passive tactics resulting in boring games where a majority of the people aren't really helping their team to win...
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The bottom line is this "pointsfix" eliminates the ago-old argument that about 7 people have continually complained about over the years.. "tank sniping".
The amount of points you no longer get is completely negligible (an opinion backed up in an above post by stealtheye) when compared to all the other items everyone is completely ignoring. The bottom line is, the people that have bitched about "tank sniping" have finally found an avenue to getting their way after all these years... In my opinion, that's all this has ever amounted to.
If you force the pointsfix to every server, whatever.. I'm still going to shoot at your orca and MRLS, and you're still going to bitch about it every time I do it.. And I'll still be close to one of the top scorers in the game, cause I kill a lot of high credit characters at the same time..
Just stop with the propaganda about how this is the "only way" to make a fair ladder.. because it's complete and utter nonsense as long as you ignore all the other items above, and you know it.
[Updated on: Fri, 15 August 2008 17:29] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #346891 is a reply to message #346858] |
Fri, 15 August 2008 19:01 |
StealthEye
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Played normally, it indeed has little effect. However it can be exploited easily to gain credits quickly, which is nonsense. If you were supposed to be able to get credits in such a cheap way, surely they would have made the ref give out more credits per second.
But indeed, it's not worth 9 pages of nonsense. I'm pretty sure noone would have noticed the points fix if they were not told about it, as long as they did not abuse it by shooting the harv with a soldier/sniper to get credits&points quickly.
The reason we started a poll about the PT issue and not about the points fix is because we think the PT issue has a much bigger impact on the gameplay. The points fix has far less, which is why people were asked to give valid reasons not to have it. The topic resulted in little valid reasons, the only thing that was slightly valid was that it would be harder to get credits in marathon games when the ref died. We proposed nonbuggy solutions to that but the only response was that TT was supposed to just recreate the points bug. No cooperation whatsoever and no clear reasons why the bug should stay resulted in us deciding making it mandatory, and ongoing insists about wanting it finally got us to make a nonofficial hack to recreate the bug once the beta was done. It's clearly different from the PT bug that does without doubt influence the gameplay significantly (I don't think anyone will disagree there?). Hence the different approach: a poll to ask whether people want the gameplay change or not.
I can't say I agree with the poll though. I think it usually leads to more problems than the best solution. Especially since the community is not very well represented here (a lot of players probably do not even know this place exists). Asking how something should be done here is similar to asking one country on how the whole world should be improved. I would have done it in a different way, but I can see why TT did it this way.
As mentioned before, two of TT's goals are changing as little as possible to the gameplay and fixing as many bugs as possible. But as soon as these conflict, the result is not predefined.
BlackIntel admin/founder/coder
Please visit http://www.blackintel.org/
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #346892 is a reply to message #346858] |
Fri, 15 August 2008 19:22 |
gkl21
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Once again, do you agree that when you have no money, you go out to field and get ridiculous amount of credits / points for shooting a light tank, mammoth, or medium tank? Get a useful unit, repair a building, sneak upto the vehicle from the back, (see spoony's list basically). Help your team in a useful way and become a team player!
Why should the half-point fix (points = fixed, credits unfixed) not be counted towards the ladder? In my opinion, due to the original design of the ladder system, still getting an extra amount of credits and same points leads to an unfair advantage for the ladder points. This is by abling people to 'defend/attack more' due to glitch, thus getting more points because you can spend it on units, sending a wave back and forth, killing more units, etc. The core part of renegade should all be the same in order to qualify, this does not include bots of anykind.
Then, if a server uses a bot to regulate extra points / credits, the people incharge of the ladder will then decide if it's a valid concept or not.
I think out of msgtpain's list of server settings, the biggest factor would be the player count. The rest seem to be minor (to a point). But if everyone knew how to ladder actually calculated the points, people would abuse it (that I can forsee from a few people).
(This part not directed to anyone) Also for people when complaining, if you don't like something, then just don't be a whiner, provide a valid reason and possible solution. Maybe your posts won't be so useless. So far all I been seeing is the people "for" something that have found possible solutions to make all the whiners happy.
Edit:
Regarding the donating, this does not matter whatsoever. Your team total credits remain the same, but all the other factors modify this number.
[Updated on: Fri, 15 August 2008 19:38] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #346905 is a reply to message #346858] |
Fri, 15 August 2008 20:39 |
kong009
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Greg my main objection to the pointsfix is it being employed on Marathon servers. Clearly it is not in the interest of speeding games up when you diminish the amount of credits people can get. Now those 5+ hour-long no refinery Islands matches are going to last even longer.
Furthermore, if you increase starting creds in a pointsfix game, how do you prevent exploitation of that? I could see somebody joining a no-ref game getting 350 creds and donating them to a teemmate, leaving, joining on a different name, donating again, etc.
btw, how can you say donating doesn't matter? In a tight game, limited creds, a team might be able to pool its resources and buy a nuke that might win it, yet it has the same number of team credits.
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #346912 is a reply to message #346858] |
Fri, 15 August 2008 22:23 |
msgtpain
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I completely disagree with you GKL.. if the goal of the ladder is to make it 'fair' across all servers that participate, then a player being able to buy a 1000 credit char, or a med tank when they normally wouldn't have been able to is a significant change to how that player "played"..
How can you not agree that this could potentially cause people to migrate only to donate servers, or only to donate servers with a 50 player count, and how does their "skill" measure up to the other players that don't have the opportunity to share credits with their team mates, etc?
Unless you force every player, on every server that joins the ladder to be on exactly equal playing ground, you can never accurately measure their skill against one another.. it just isn't possible.
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #346917 is a reply to message #346858] |
Sat, 16 August 2008 01:00 |
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Goztow
Messages: 9738
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General (5 Stars)
Goztoe |
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I think everyone can agree with my post, now let's stop until we restart this whole discussion! Please?
You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #346932 is a reply to message #346858] |
Sat, 16 August 2008 05:24 |
Jellybe4n
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It's pointless arguing with people who think logic is the answer to everything. Sometimes the illogical is more fun, but don't let that get in the way of what matters. It's a bug, and it's the sworn duty to fix it, no matter how many people think otherwise.
I gave up even trying a while back. There's plenty of people who do not want the point fix to be mandatory, however it's a big fuck you to all those people it seems.
[Updated on: Sat, 16 August 2008 05:26] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #346933 is a reply to message #346879] |
Sat, 16 August 2008 05:26 |
Jellybe4n
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| Goztow wrote on Fri, 15 August 2008 19:46 |
If the points are really the same, then I don't really see a problem to this. If a server starts with 350 starting credits, u have the same kind of "falsification" of the ladder. We shouldn't go all to extreme. So as long as gained points are the same, I wouldn't mind it.
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This is the most evenly balanced view I've seen, pitty the self imposed team deciding the fate of the game think otherwise.
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #346949 is a reply to message #346858] |
Sat, 16 August 2008 08:45 |
gkl21
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ok... quote time
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Clearly it is not in the interest of speeding games up when you diminish the amount of credits people can get. Now those 5+ hour-long no refinery Islands matches are going to last even longer.
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Try to get more people to play as a team, meaning rushing, donating all to a few players to get higher up units, etc.
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Furthermore, if you increase starting creds in a pointsfix game, how do you prevent exploitation of that?
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There is also a time factor calculated within the ladder (if it was not changed). The games should last shorter for those who have starting credits, but that only happens, I'll say 40% of the time. I don't think starting credits affects it too much, but yet, I haven't tested that aspect yet.
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I could see somebody joining a no-ref game getting 350 creds and donating them to a teemmate, leaving, joining on a different name, donating again, etc.
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I aswell; infact it has happened. This is clearly a matter of how the server is being moderated in order to use this "backdoor to credits". I know most places do not allow this kind of activity.
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btw, how can you say donating doesn't matter? In a tight game, limited creds, a team might be able to pool its resources and buy a nuke that might win it, yet it has the same number of team credits
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Congratulations for using teamwork! I'm moreso stating the core part of renegade should be the same.
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if the goal of the ladder is to make it 'fair' across all servers that participate, then a player being able to buy a 1000 credit char, or a med tank when they normally wouldn't have been able to is a significant change to how that player "played"..
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Being more careful is onto the strategy side of things. (How it's being played)
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how does their "skill" measure up to the other players that don't have the opportunity to share credits with their team mates, etc?
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Everyone seems to have their own definition of skill. I've seen people be gunners, havocs, or tank hitting builing all game and all three seperate instances got then higher (and in other games lower) then others. It evens out throughout the games.
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It's pointless arguing with people who think logic is the answer to everything
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Logic? I've played both and do find with the pointfix on it is more fun since you actually have teammates not 'monkeys' running around. Logic and testing is the answer  .
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For this ladder to be fair, all the servers would need to be exactly the same. That would completely defeat the purpose of multiple servers.
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Technically yes.
In the end, the ladder calculation is done to Westwood's formula (how it suppose to be with the pointfix on anyway).
Back to the original post, points calculated the same, ladder it. Other variables most likely will have a factor, but how much? Only time / testing will tell (I don't think other variables will too much -> to an extent).
This will probably turn into another 10 page essay...
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #346966 is a reply to message #346858] |
Sat, 16 August 2008 11:53 |
Homey
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The point is if you're going to make a fix mandatory to be on the ladder in the name of "fairness" you damn well better make everything else the same too. It doesn't matter how big or small of a difference any extra credits/donating options etc will make. We should all have no skins, no advantages and every server on the ladder should be the exact same. This of course is using their logic.
Homey
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #346969 is a reply to message #346966] |
Sat, 16 August 2008 12:28 |
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saberhawk
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| Homey wrote on Sat, 16 August 2008 13:53 |
The point is if you're going to make a fix mandatory to be on the ladder in the name of "fairness" you damn well better make everything else the same too. It doesn't matter how big or small of a difference any extra credits/donating options etc will make. We should all have no skins, no advantages and every server on the ladder should be the exact same. This of course is using their logic.
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What *I* think about the ladder really doesn't matter, as I am not a balance coordinator or gameplay programmer. Unfortunately, I forgot to mention that...
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #346970 is a reply to message #346858] |
Sat, 16 August 2008 12:33 |
StealthEye
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General (2 Stars) |
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Really Jelly. You don't see to understand that the half points fix is NOT a compromise between points fix and no points fix. Like I posted, the code wise problems are still the same. I'm sure you still prefer the original points bug over the half points fix, so I wouldn't even consider this an option.
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It's pointless arguing with people who think logic is the answer to everything. Sometimes the illogical is more fun, but don't let that get in the way of what matters. It's a bug, and it's the sworn duty to fix it, no matter how many people think otherwise.
I gave up even trying a while back. There's plenty of people who do not want the point fix to be mandatory, however it's a big fuck you to all those people it seems.
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There are plenty who want it mandatory as well, not having it mandatory would be just as big of a fuck you to those. This argument really applies to both sides and thus is completely invalid. I just have to replace words and your post is just as valid, but clearly supplies "arguments" for the opposite opinion.| Quote: |
It's pointless arguing with people who think illogical fun is the answer to everything. Sometimes the logical is more fun, but don't let that get in the way of what matters. It's always been like that, and it's the sworn duty to keep it like it is, no matter how many people think otherwise.
I gave up even trying a while back. There's plenty of people who do not want the point fix to be optional, however it's a big fuck you to all those people it seems.
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I repeat, making it optional gives both those who want to be able to use it and those who do not want to use it what they want, however it does not give those who want it mandatory what they want. Making things optional is not a solution everyone can live with.
But yeah, I'm going to do exactly what you did a while back. I'll give up posting because there is no way I can convince you.
BlackIntel admin/founder/coder
Please visit http://www.blackintel.org/
[Updated on: Sat, 16 August 2008 12:36] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #346988 is a reply to message #346858] |
Sat, 16 August 2008 14:08 |
kong009
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Because an argument works one way doesn't mean the converse also works. The flaw with saying the pointsfix should be optional and that it's a big fuck you to the people who want it is this: the only people who want it are the people developing the patch, and you are the minority. Please remember that.
You are failing to see the reality that (and I'm guessing from what I've seen both here and in Jelly forums) 90% of the Renegade-playing community DO NOT WANT the pointsfix. You at the very least do not acknowledge that, even though the threads with polls and opinions are all over the place. You are also failing to consider the ramifications of implimenting a mandatory pointsfix that the majority of players don't agree with, whether that is drastically lowering your player count or making some Renegade servers fail completely.
Bringing down servers entirely, well, that's not an illogical argument against the pointsfix, is it?
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