Home » General Discussions » General Discussion » Fix the damn gun
| Fix the damn gun [message #125113] |
Tue, 07 December 2004 20:45   |
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Jecht
Messages: 3156
Registered: September 2004
Karma: 0
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General (3 Stars) |
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ya know wut, n00bjets are somewhat balanced, if you kill them with a hs its 90+ points (dont remember EXACTLY) thats hella points to me, so the balance here should be the want to kill them, I always go for 1000 as a 500 for the points, plain and simple. If you took out n00bjets tho, you would see how much the game would be unbalanced one way or the other. for instance, you are Nod on field, and say cowmisfit is on GDI (hes a good sniper, thats y i use him) cow is in the tunnels with 4 other 500 snipers(the same as him) and is pwnin the crap out of you. now you are enclosed through the front with 3 meds, an APC, and a MRL in back of them pounding your HON. What do you do? i'll tell you, pretty much nothing. If the MRL wasnt there you might be able to repair and take out the tanks at the same time but with that kind of firepower and no long range weapon to destroy it, your raped in the ass....Say goodbye to the Hand of Nod, and now you have almost nothing, so now the APC goes and with the cover of the meds and the MRL they take out the obby and the snipers in the tunnels are no longer confined. Sry that may be a stretch but it is a situation in which you would need one, and dont tell me an arty rush, or a flame rush cuz that bullshit would get shut down by any decent Med pilots.
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| Fix the damn gun [message #125133] |
Tue, 07 December 2004 21:57 |
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liberator
Messages: 246
Registered: May 2003
Location: Classified, Level Phi cle...
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In the described situation of being trapped in the NOD base, I would buy a rail gun and kill the MLRS in 5 shots, and if they started repairing it I would take out one of the tanks and try and force them back. Massed PIC/rails own tanks.
GDI has the advantage on that map anyway. If however, I couldn't break the GDI choke hold on my base I would get an SBH and clear the snipers from the tunnels. As I stated previously, if an opponent has room to manuver, a standard sniper is at a supreme disadvantage close up against an enemy with a rapid fire weapon.
There was a time when people were impressed that I have the firepower to decimate a planet in under 10 minutes.
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| Fix the damn gun [message #125141] |
Tue, 07 December 2004 23:10 |
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liberator
Messages: 246
Registered: May 2003
Location: Classified, Level Phi cle...
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If the SBH uses distractions to put his C4 on the sniper it won't matter much. But that is splitting hairs.
All we're really asking for is an obvious and easily exploitable game bug to be fixed. Kind of like Harvy Walking.
There was a time when people were impressed that I have the firepower to decimate a planet in under 10 minutes.
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| Fix the damn gun [message #125187] |
Wed, 08 December 2004 07:31 |
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NukeIt15
Messages: 987
Registered: February 2003
Location: Out to lunch
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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to take that out is to remove a peice of renegade itself.
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Well, a tumor is a part of you...but that doesn't mean you don't want it cut right the fuck out. "Because the devs did it" is not sufficient reason to call it balanced- that is why games get patched after release, because someone up top realizes they did something wrong. Why no patch? Because Westwood isn't around to fix it, and EA doesn't give a shit.
Plenty of examples exist of an abandoned game's community getting together and fixing problems the devs never had a chance to deal with. The same thing needs to happen here.
"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. Horrid mischief would ensue were (the law-abiding) deprived of the use of them." - Thomas Paine
Remember, kids: illiteracy is cool. If you took the time to read this, you are clearly a loser who will never get laid. You've been warned.
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| Fix the damn gun [message #125189] |
Wed, 08 December 2004 07:45 |
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liberator
Messages: 246
Registered: May 2003
Location: Classified, Level Phi cle...
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IIRC, the n00bjet was left over from beta and slated to be fixed in the next patch, but WW was killed before that could happen. No game designer worth a fig would ever leave such a balance killing aspect unattended without a damn good reason.
Look, I don't want to take away a crucial aspect of the game, I(and others) just feel that this isn't a crucial part of the game, and just causes unecessary resentment and hard feelings. I mean how many new players have picked up Renegade because they've been told it has a unique and rewarding MP experience, and then leave the community after only a few games, not because someone was cheating, but because some point-whore with a n00bjet sat and pwned him all the time with seemingly no way of stopping him? I was lucky, my dozen games were unmarred by such buffoonery, others have not been.
The point is that any effective scenario for defeating a single n00bjet pwning people from way beyond a lot of maps' visual range involves commiting significant portions of a team's resources in both men and materiel, to the point where a single player with a n00bjet can effectively render a base defenseless against a weak vehicle rush that would be turned back with only 1 or 2 extra defenders. And don't bring up the suggestion that the defending team needed to find more players or that they need to get more skillz, I and many others play the game for recreation and have neither the time nor desire to develop the godlike skill that is required to adequately defend against a noobjet.
There was a time when people were impressed that I have the firepower to decimate a planet in under 10 minutes.
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| Fix the damn gun [message #125192] |
Wed, 08 December 2004 08:48 |
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Jecht
Messages: 3156
Registered: September 2004
Karma: 0
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General (3 Stars) |
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take my advise here for when you are gaming in renegade: "The best way to beat a sniper is to become one". When you do that, you are on equal ground and at then point can counter. The point of the game is to keep a balanced amount of infantry to vehicles. Infantry support the vehicles so the vehicles can rush. allowing laserchaingunners, Raves, and Mendozas to trounce your rushes every time would suck, cuz if you take away snipers, thats what everyone will be instead, and instead of going out into the open like normal, people would camp with these infantry waiting to point whore on your vehicles. of course a way to counter this is an MRL/arty attack, but then there is no counter to the MRL/arty attack when they are protected by APCs and being repaired by hotties. dont believe me, then set up a mod like the one you describe and you will see how boring the game truely is. There will be lack of skill and little barrier that seperate the 1337s from the Regulars would be quite noticable. I dont know bout you but im not the best person at this game, im far from it but having better snipers than me ingame is wut makes me better at it and makes the game more addictive.
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| Fix the damn gun [message #125198] |
Wed, 08 December 2004 10:20 |
flyingfox
Messages: 1612
Registered: February 2003
Location: scotland, uk
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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Actually as a rule of thumb you should NEVER take on your opponent on equal ground if you can help it. Doing so you give him the same chance as you and that means you die if he is better. Give yourself an advantage over him and youre talking. that's how you beat people who are better than you. it's like the movie Troy....i haven't seen it, but have been told that men hide inside a big wooden horse in order to confuse a kingdom into thinking it is a gift from god, and take it inside (or inside enemy lines). Then, all h ell breaks loose and they take over. Had they just assaulted from the front they would probably have lost.
As far as your example with camping laserchains, raves & mendozas, i don't see how that would be a problem because it works both ways. You can already camp, people do it on field as GDI when they lose their weps...camping won't get you points unless they bring units for you to attack. If they don't you'll have to go out and get the points yourself.
Have you ever played a game on the hazteam server? they don't let you buy snipers at all, not even 500s. The only thing wrong i've noticed is that people like "mrnod2004" will use PIC/railgun to the death, and aircraft can get too powerful...which brings us to a point someone made a few pages back. If snipers get fixed it will be IMPORTANT to increase rifle soldier damage to aircraft and get rocketeers' rockets seeking out.
The only characters, ever, who should kill in a single hit are 500 snipers [headshot] and railgun/personal ion cannons. If you have studied the way the game works you will also know that you can create new skin and armour types, new weapon types and assign damage values to them. you can also assign different damage ratios to the head, torse, legs, arms and a few others I think. the way it stands now is that the head takes 5x damage, the neck 3x and the others 1x. that is why, when you are a 1000 character and get shot in the neck by a 500 sniper you live, because 100 * 3 is 300, and you have 350 health in total.
~f
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| Fix the damn gun [message #125200] |
Wed, 08 December 2004 10:57 |
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Aircraftkiller
Messages: 8213
Registered: February 2003
Karma: 0
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General (5 Stars) |
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| NukeIt15 |
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to take that out is to remove a peice of renegade itself.
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Well, a tumor is a part of you...but that doesn't mean you don't want it cut right the fuck out. "Because the devs did it" is not sufficient reason to call it balanced- that is why games get patched after release, because someone up top realizes they did something wrong. Why no patch? Because Westwood isn't around to fix it, and EA doesn't give a shit.
Plenty of examples exist of an abandoned game's community getting together and fixing problems the devs never had a chance to deal with. The same thing needs to happen here.
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To use a good example, since I was a developer of Renegade, look at Glacier Flying.
When I first made it, we got it placed into the 1.035 patch or something like that. I can't remember what it was now. People complained about it and found a lot of problems, so I asked them to show me the problems and I fixed the ones I was able to solve.
The 1.036 patch came out and fixed that problem. But the level still had a lot of problems and basically required an overhaul to fix all of them. We didn't get the time to do it, and Glacier Flying is still there in its problematic version, as compared to Glacier or GlacierTS.
If I had the time I would have fixed it and sent it out again, but we didn't even have time for that.
n00b cannons need to be fixed or just totally removed. There is no need to be a "sniper" to kill them. The best way to do it is to work it like Renegade Alert. Snipers are only useful against infantry, they are useless against anything else. They only kill with two or three body shots per soldier, depending on the soldier, and only kill with a single head shot unless it's the Volkov character.
They have a bolt action rifle that has to be reloaded before being fired again, so each shot requires you to hit the head or spend 5+ seconds going for body shots.
You learn to get skill, not easy wins.
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| Fix the damn gun [message #125206] |
Wed, 08 December 2004 12:31 |
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m1a1_abrams
Messages: 375
Registered: August 2003
Karma: 0
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Commander |
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| Doitle |
I think the Ramjet should keep its effectiveness against the hummer and buggy. The real Barrett is used to crack engine blocks to disable vehicles so in that respect it is realistic.
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But we want Buggies and Humvees to be used don't we? Right now, as far as most people are concerned, they're a redunant unit that's only useful as a cheap APC at the start of the game. Only lunatics like me use them for the whole game, and even then it's mostly in a base defence capacity. They should be surprise attack units that use their speed to negate their lack of armour... move in, do the damage and then move out again before the enemy can bring the big guns to bear. Unfortunately, due to the the excessive range, damage, rate-of-fire and instant hitting capabilities of the Ramjet, as soon as people reach 1000 credits, you can't leave cover at all with a Buggy and expect to come back in one piece.
The only exception that I've found is on C&C Islands, where the numerous rock formations allow you to dart in and out of cover, quickly repairing your vehicle in between forays. I tend to use Buggies and Humvees on that map exclusively to hunt 1000 credit snipers... it feels like poetic justice. It gives me great pleasure to appear out of nowhere and run them over, or gun them down at point blank range. 
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| Fix the damn gun [message #125207] |
Wed, 08 December 2004 12:38 |
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NukeIt15
Messages: 987
Registered: February 2003
Location: Out to lunch
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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take my advise here for when you are gaming in renegade: "The best way to beat a sniper is to become one". When you do that, you are on equal ground and at then point can counter.
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If you switch to a sniper, sure you may be able to kill the Ramjet junkie, but you have to abandon whatever other role you were filling to do so. If the only way to counter a unit is by taking a similar unit, that is bad balance. No other unit has the range, accuracy, and HP to effectively counter a Ramjetter.
"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. Horrid mischief would ensue were (the law-abiding) deprived of the use of them." - Thomas Paine
Remember, kids: illiteracy is cool. If you took the time to read this, you are clearly a loser who will never get laid. You've been warned.
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| Fix the damn gun [message #125308] |
Wed, 08 December 2004 17:45 |
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NukeIt15
Messages: 987
Registered: February 2003
Location: Out to lunch
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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Don't expect every game and mod you play to just drop an all-powerful smite-o-matic weapon in your lap whenever someone owns the hell out of you. A word of advice: don't use unbalanced, over-powered weapons as a substitute for skill and tactics. If you do, it tends to come back and bite you in the ass when you play a game that doesn't have them.
"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. Horrid mischief would ensue were (the law-abiding) deprived of the use of them." - Thomas Paine
Remember, kids: illiteracy is cool. If you took the time to read this, you are clearly a loser who will never get laid. You've been warned.
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| Fix the damn gun [message #125321] |
Wed, 08 December 2004 18:13 |
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liberator
Messages: 246
Registered: May 2003
Location: Classified, Level Phi cle...
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Basically, you're only real argument for the n00bjet to remain in it's current form is that it would unbalance the game. That's our argument too, it's present form ruins game balance. A single player with only moderate skill can effectively cover 3-4 artillery units that are pounding the enemy base. So not only does the enemy have to deploy sufficient units to deal with the artillery(2 tanks minimum) they have to also deploy enough units to deal with the n00bjet(2 additional tanks + repair and infantry coverage to guarentee elimination) so to defeat 5 enemy units the opposing team has to deploy at least 7, more likely 10 or more. In what way is that fair? The opposing team should at most have to deploy an equivalent number of units, probably less because in order to balance their awe inspiring offensive abilities, artillery has very limited defensive abilites.
There was a time when people were impressed that I have the firepower to decimate a planet in under 10 minutes.
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| Fix the damn gun [message #125364] |
Wed, 08 December 2004 19:47 |
knight1b
Messages: 70
Registered: August 2004
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The only time a Ramjet should not kill a basic infantry in 1 shot is if they where hit in the arm and that arm was well away from the torso. Why you may ask? Becuase your in a battle feild if your shot in the chest area with that much power your dead same with the head if your shot in the leg you got no leg and somehow i doubt your going to live long hoping around with out one.
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| Fix the damn gun [message #125378] |
Wed, 08 December 2004 21:11 |
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YSLMuffins
Messages: 1144
Registered: February 2003
Location: Moved a long time ago (it...
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star)
Moderator - Mod Forum |
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Call me a purist, but there are bigger problems manifesting itself in the point system. The Ramjet is just a part of an array of weapons that deliver way too many points for the damage inflicted. You could rack up a lot of points with APCs, Buggies, and Humvees. Such tactics are irritating, but can earn a lot of points--ever seen a Buggy leech points off of the enemy harvester on Hourglass when the harvester is in green health?
No one has proven to me that your current state of health has a significant impact on how much damage you take. Logically, you would take more damage if your armor was diminished, but that only seems to be important with infantry (to a very little extend with high-explosive weapons). With vehicles, you don't take more damage when your armor is worn down, but when it is, you actually give less points to the enemy in most cases. Try it out yourself in a 1 player LAN--get a hummer and shoot at your harvester until you wear it down into yellow, and you will see you start to earn dramatically less points.
If all vehicles were just given all health and no armor--as in, instead of 600 health/600 armor, simply give the mammoth tank 1200 health--then we would be rid of this point whoring--not just with Ramjets, but with other units as well. This would also allow the additional benefit of delivering points based on how much damage you inflict, not some insanely inflated number when you only do 5 units worth of damage. We can see that this works because buildings have only health, never any armor, so you always get a reliable and predictable award for every hitpoint you take away.
-YSLMuffins
The goddess of all (bread products)
See me online as yslcheeze
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| Fix the damn gun [message #125520] |
Thu, 09 December 2004 16:29 |
flyingfox
Messages: 1612
Registered: February 2003
Location: scotland, uk
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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The damages are all preset and there's little difference in all of the armour types. I know a few differences are that chemical warriors and flamethrowers take less damage from handheld explosives and probably tank shells, making them useful to sneak with and fight engineers. Another is that the mutant and chemical thrower can walk on tiberium. The flamethrower is nearly immune to flame attacks (0.010% or something) and the chemical thrower won't lose health from another chemical sprayer. Everyone suffers against the ramjet though.
there do need to be a few other changes though.....the nod rifle soldier does crap to an orca. Nod doesn't have a decent basic unit to fight vehicles with, so flamethrower damage against CnCVehicleMedium and CnCVehicleHeavy (as well as their armour types) should be upped. rocket soldiers must have seeking rockets. let the MRLS be less susceptible to sniper attack and allow more of its rockets to heat seek so that it can be a better anti-air unit alongside the rocket soldiers. give the orca/apache less ammunition/rockets but let the ammunition they have do good damage. add repair pads to walls fly and city fly, but don't let them be base-critical structures (meaning you take out the base and win while having them alive). add small invisible barriers to the walls fly defensive planforms, so that people will not lag off but can hop over them if they need to get off quickly. etc etc.
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| Fix the damn gun [message #125547] |
Thu, 09 December 2004 18:39 |
Spoony_old
Messages: 1105
Registered: December 2004
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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OK, my thoughts.
I personally don't care all that much about their one-shot kill on basic infantry, or the fact they do rather a lot of damage to higher-class characters with a mere bodyshot. I can understand why others might, but I don't. Simple reason is well over 99% of players who choose the Ramjet over the 500 sniper are, quite simply, inferior shots.
(I don't claim to be much good at sniping, but when I do choose to buy a sniper, I always seem to follow the same pattern: kill 4 havocs, get killed by a deadeye. kill 3 havocs, get killed by a deadeye. It happens 99% of the time, and I do not believe it is a coincidence)
I am concerned about the damage they inflict on light vehicles. What are supposed to be the anti-tank units in Renegade? PIC/Raveshaw, Mobius/Mendoza, Gunner etc. A ramjet can take out a light vehicle faster than any of the above, and does NOT have the weaknesses each of those weapons have (PIC reload time, Mobius short range, Gunner rocket can be avoided). If anybody does not believe that is complete bullshit... they are, quite simply, wrong.
If anybody believes that will make MRLS/Artillery too powerful, then you really don't understand the game, because ramjets are not and have never been the best weapon for killing those.
However, the main problem is the points. Nobody has ever provided a logical explanation why a ramjet should get 10 points a shot or more (depending on the vehicle), for attacking something it does negligible damage to. It makes me sick to play in a 50 player server where 30 players have been n00bjetting ever since they had $1000, and by the end of the game they have zero kills, done absolutely nothing to affect actual gameplay, but have 5000 points to show for it.
Again, the word "bullshit" is the most appropriate description I can think of.
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