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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #466761 is a reply to message #466716] Fri, 27 April 2012 13:25 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
fredcow9 is currently offline  fredcow9
Messages: 32
Registered: December 2005
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Deuteronomy 13:13-19 Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him.

Deuteronomy 13:7-12 If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst.

Deuteronomy 17:2-5 Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death.

ok...whats the famed instruction to me? I dont blame God for suggesting the killing of people regardless of who they are trying to entice them to serve other gods. Only makes sense if you drag a group of people out of slavery, perform great wonders before them all, give them a nice plot of land as an inheritance and then they go and worship something else? Of course that threats going to be eliminated. If you really think God commanded that for anyone except the Israelites then you must think I cant eat anything without cloven hooves...

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isn't there some small part of you that wonders why you're trying to justify intentional and systematic genocide of innocent children?

Im not even trying to justify pharaohs actions...he was just a dumbass.

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i guess i do need to repeat them, then?
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^^

I dont know what you want me to do with this... am I responding to myself and you? just you? or are you pointing out that your going to just say the same things over and over again. why is hell in religion. why are you punished for being the wrong religion. why is god so merciless to people who dont believe in him. the short answer is because they are very real.

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Thumbs Up

ok?

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Thumbs Up

ok?

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i've been asking for pages and pages a simple question about where the likes of Josephus got their information from...

He said his disciples reported these things in the quote. I dont know why you would ask pages and pages as to how a historian is getting his information about things hes telling you hes got.
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nobody seems to know. they were repeating what they'd heard... from whom?

Jesus disciples, they reported it.
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even if these historians believed it themselves,

Thats not relevant, what is, is if they contradict the gospels or not.
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which they generally don't, there's still not much credibility to what they write, and what they write would be unimpressive even if it were true (generally stuff along the lines of "there was a group of people who believed X...")

right, but again thats not even the point at all. The whole point is that secular historians recorded accounts of Jesus that do exist only confirm what the gospels are saying.

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...when do you think josephus wrote about jesus?

probably around 60-70 ad. He completed his work in the 90s so its only reasonable for him to accuire information over this time period so he could write his great work hes known for.

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in a time when most people couldn't read or write, and the world (at the time and place) was frothing with messianic delusions and schismatic sects?

So everything we know about ancient history cant be trusted because all the historians at their respective times would have been delusional? You dont think anyone wrote what they ACTUALLY SAW. I understand the skepticism but you honestly cant think everyone had some sort of an agenda, those that did, they failed. greek mythology is known as greek mythology for a reason. Christ is not mythology.
Yes they are in a time when most couldnt read or write which is why its amazing the gospels are not lying when matched with secular writings dont you think?
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sorry, but you're gonna have to do a little better than a few droning scribblings written decades after the guy they're talking about is supposed to have died.

Oh did you want writings from people that believed Jesus was the son of God? I was only using people who rejected him and would be the most neutral source.
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that's feeble, and if your god is intelligent, he'd know how feeble it is. a decent god who was interested in people all over the world joining his religion ought to be able to do better than this.

Id say considering how Christianity swept the world pretty quick did a fine job. the disciples went around getting lots of believers for a reason.

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"tacitus wrote during Christ's life"? are you sure you meant to say that?

no its not lol, my bad.

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why don't so many people believe it even though you threaten them with worse than death?

In the meantime, the method I have observed towards those who have been denounced to me as Christians is this: I interrogated them whether they were in fact Christians; if they confessed it, I repeated the question twice, adding the threat of capital punishment; if they still persevered, I ordered them to be executed.-pliny

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not quite the same thing in practice, because you're obviously full of shit, but the principle is the same.

nice question dodge. please answer it next time.

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let's not compare the two.

ok...

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which is another way of saying that jesus and god have nothing to do with each other.

no its a way of saying the jewish elders at the time didnt care about God, his prophecies or following his orders anymore. They were the heads of state and enjoyed their power even amongst roman occupation.

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sounds quite devout, by old testament standards.

regardless its the case.

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"you can't seem to come up with better eyewitness accounts, not counting the Jewish authorities"

all writings in secular and church history do not discredit the gospels but support what they said. I can post the pro Jesus peoples writings at the time if you wish, just let me know right here.

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whatever makes you feel better about the fact that you can't prove anything important about jesus.

So far I have proved the gospels can be trusted, the say hes the son of God. Im not so sure what else you need to classify it as "important"
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"claimed to be the son of God" - plenty of people claimed stuff like that

not like him, who else who claimed to be the son of God fullfilled over 300 prophecies, written about in secular history, started a whole religion that exists till today where the direct disciples didnt deny their son of god till the bitter end?
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"died" - woop de doo

an innocent man dying one after reading your posts would think they would have more concern and be blasting the roman government for such atrocities. Of course when it comes to your enemies though you dont care.
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"fulfilled prophecies" - wanna give a few examples?

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.
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Mattthew 1:20-23 [20] But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. [21] She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins." [22] All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: [23] "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" --which means, "God with us."

Isaiah 37:31 Once more a remnant of the house of Judah will take root below and bear fruit above.
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Matthew 1:1-2, 16 [1] A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son [descendant] of David, the son of Abraham: [2] Abraham was the father of Isaac, Isaac the father of Jacob, Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers, [16] and [a later] Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

Isaiah 16:5 In love a throne will be established; in faithfulness a man will sit on it--one from the house of David--one who in judging seeks justice and speeds the cause of righteousness
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Matthew 1:1-2A, 6, 16 [1] A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son of David, the son of Abraham: [2] Abraham was the father of Isaac, ... [6] and Jesse the father of King David. [16] and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

Micah 5:2 But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.
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Matthew 2:1 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem

Jeremiah 31:15 This is what the LORD says: "A voice is heard in Ramah, mourning and great weeping, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because her children are no more."
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Matthew 2:16-18 [16] When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi. [17] Then what was said through the prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled: [18] "A voice is heard in Ramah, weeping and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because they are no more."

Hosea 11:1 When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.
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Matthew 2:14-15 [14] So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt, [15] where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: "Out of Egypt I called my son."

Isaiah 49:6 he [the Lord] says: "It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."
and
Isaiah 42:1-4, 6 [1] "Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him and he will bring justice to the nations. [2] He will not shout or cry out, or raise his voice in the streets. [3] A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out. In faithfulness he will bring forth justice; [4] he will not falter or be discouraged till he establishes justice on earth. In his law the islands will put their hope." [6] "I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness; I will take hold of your hand. I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people and a light for the Gentiles,
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Matthew 12:14-21 [14] But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus. [15] Aware of this, Jesus withdrew from that place. Many followed him, and he healed all their sick, [16] warning them not to tell who he was. [17] This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah: [18] "Here is my servant whom I have chosen, the one I love, in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will proclaim justice to the nations. [19] He will not quarrel or cry out; no one will hear his voice in the streets. [20] A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out, till he leads justice to victory. [21] In his name the nations will put their hope."

Isaiah 35:5-6a [5] Then will the eyes of the blind be opened and the ears of the deaf unstopped. [6a] Then will the lame leap like a deer, and the mute tongue shout for joy.
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Luke 7:20-22 [20] When the men came to Jesus, they said, "John the Baptist sent us to you to ask, `Are you the one who was to come, or should we expect someone else?' " [21] At that very time Jesus cured many who had diseases, sicknesses and evil spirits, and gave sight to many who were blind. [22] So he replied to the messengers, "Go back and report to John what you have seen and heard: The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor."

this one pertains to you lol
Psalm 69:4 Those who hate me without reason outnumber the hairs of my head; many are my enemies without cause, those who seek to destroy me. I am forced to restore what I did not steal.
and
Isaiah 49:7 This is what the LORD says-- the Redeemer and Holy One of Israel-- to him who was despised and abhorred by the nation, to the servant of rulers: "Kings will see you and rise up, princes will see and bow down, because of the LORD, who is faithful, the Holy One of Israel, who has chosen you."
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John 7:48-49 "Has any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed in him? [49] No! But this mob that knows nothing of the law--there is a curse on them."

and
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John 15:24-25 [24] If I had not done among them what no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. But now they have seen these miracles, and yet they have hated both me and my Father. [25] But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: `They hated me without reason.'

Psalm 118:22 The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone [cornerstone of a building]; [23] the LORD has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes
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Matthew 21:42 Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures:" `The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone; the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes' ?

Zechariah 11:12 I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver.
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Matthew 26:14-15 [14] Then one of the Twelve--the one called Judas Iscariot--went to the chief priests [15] and asked, "What are you willing to give me if I hand him over to you?" So they counted out for him thirty silver coins.

Psalm 22:16 Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet.
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John 20:25 So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."

Psalm 22:17 I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me.
and
Psalm 34:20 he protects all his bones, not one of them will be broken.
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John 19:33; 36a [33] But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. [36a] These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: "Not one of his bones will be broken,"

Psalm 22:18 They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.
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Matthew 27:35 When they had crucified him, they divided up his clothes by casting lots

Isaiah 53:9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death ...
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Matthew 27:57,59-60 [57] As evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus. [59] Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, [60] and placed it in his own new tomb that he had cut out of the rock. He rolled a big stone in front of the entrance to the tomb and went away.

Isaiah 53:8, 11 [8] By oppression and judgment he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken. [11] After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.
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Matthew 28:2, 5-7, 9 [2] There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. [5] The angel said to the women, "Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. [6] He is not here; he has risen, just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay. [7] Then go quickly and tell his disciples: `He has risen from the dead and is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him.' Now I have told you." [9] Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him.

Now one might say oh they just orchestrated all these things ect ect blah blah blah. get real. No one in history has done such a thing going to their dying grave believing it to be true expecting a hoax to carry through the government in a time when said government has made it illegal to even believe such things under penalty of death.


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"rose from the dead" - prove it

the gospels claim it, the secular writings claim others claiming it. Im really not sure what your expecting. you think the roman government at the time cared at all what some random local in israel was doing? let alone record anything specifically about him?
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as for me "falling in line with the pharisees", let's remember that i've consistently been in favour of religious freedom, whereas you've openly defended murder and torture as punishments for not being the right religion,

no, you are talking about the things the ancient israelites were commanded, because I believe God carried out these commandments and I dont doubt the reasonableness of them then you automatically attach some label to me of defending murder and torture for being the wrong religion. please try again.
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for offending the religious bullies of the time... which happened to jesus, didn't it?

No if you are talking about ot commandments these are directly from God. the pharisees are not God.
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doesn't that make you reconsider? can you really be in favour of persecuting people for not being the right religion when someone you admire was the victim of the same thing?

Its not the same, Christ was guilty of nothing according to the scriptures except trying to save everyone.

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what utter drivel

well I could have guessed that!

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no, you're just too fucking retarded to realise that you think it too.

So because I dont share the same life values and what punishments are deserving in life im retarded?
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do you want to live in a society where you can be horribly punished for not being the right religion according to those in power?

Where does the bible command anyone in this age to do such a thing?
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where the ones in power say that the right religion is not the same as yours?

This happens but not from a christian point of view. All over the world christians are killed on a daily basis for not conforming to the governments belief system. I dont think thats right and it is fucked up, its why in america the constitution is written the way it is.

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you're still aware that i don't think this god of yours is real?

even if you thought he was, you wouldnt believe. I think you even said that once a long time ago, though i could be wrong.
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So did Satan.



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i have a question. why's satan the villain of the bible?

In a grasp of greed, satan sought to take over the throne of God with 1/3 the angels. as punishment for this he was condemned to hell (made just for him and the angles originally). Since he cant do anything to God, hes decided to go after Gods children. Now why does God permit this I dont know, however its reality and thats just the way things are so I accept it.

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isn't it true that the overwhelming majority of conversions are done by indoctrinating children?


no, its more than likely that the work done overseas creates more real followers.
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telling kids that religion X or Y is real when they're too young to know any better.

I know alot of people that had christian upbringings. They are not christian in the least lol.
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kids are taught this bullshit with the same certainly as what they're taught in maths and science, and they're not told "by the way, there's basically no evidence that any of this crap is true, and you can just live your life without a religion btw", and they're threatened with extraordinary punishments.

You dont think theres any evidence and that its all just that faith crap. the bible itself regarding the existence of God? "the fool hath said in his heart, there is no God" thats it because its just outlandish to even THINK FOR ONE SECOND that we were put here by chance or some other retarded theory running around of evolving species. Look at the bullshit "science" they teach kids at a young age and tell me whoes really lying to who?
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and of course children are the target demographic, because it doesn't work on intelligent adults.

are you saying I cant come up with a list of intelligent people through history that were christian?
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i've debated dozens of religious people and not a single one has said anything to make me think their religions are worthwhile. seriously, not a damn thing. (most of them were less fanatical than you)

How is that relevant? if anything it just sounds like your full of yourself tbh.

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so?

If he existed he either died on a cross or didnt. he either rose from the dead or didnt. Based on all I have presented thus far your not doing the best job of showing me my errors here.

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the gospels don't even agree with each other. but then, i wouldn't expect them to.

where?

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and their writings didn't even turn up until decades after the events they purport to describe. sorry, are you still talking about why they're reliable?

I asked you what reasonable amount of time after a persons death is a source reliable. I dont see the problem with them being written decades after. Thier instruction wasnt "go and write a book" it was "go and make disciples of all nations" they went and did their work then they wrote about it. I dont see the problem.

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and most of the secular historical sources you cite, josephus etc, they deny it too despite believing in the jewish messiah.

I purposely picked people who denied him...Yet even they agree with the gospels.
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sorry, are you still talking about why jesus really was the messiah?

are you talking about why he wasnt? Im yet to see anything from you on this.

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the fact it became so widespread is because it was given power by the roman empire Sarcasm

why was it given power by the roman empire Sarcasm
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collusion with secular dictatorship + indoctrination of children = survival. but despite all this, you still can't prove it's true.

what are you talking about?

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first, swap "never existed" for "was a man, not the son of a god". as for lunacy, have you even read the "secular historical sources" you keep citing?

It seems thus far you havent even glanced at them.
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they tend to refer to "the christians" derisively, calling them superstitious and troublemakers, and the jewish ones among them who do believe in the messiah don't think jesus was it.

They affirmed, however, that the whole of their guilt, or their error, was that they were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to perform any wicked deed, never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to make it good; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food - but food of an ordinary and innocent kind
In the meantime, the method I have observed towards those who have been denounced to me as Christians is this: I interrogated them whether they were in fact Christians; if they confessed it, I repeated the question twice, adding the threat of capital punishment; if they still persevered, I ordered them to be executed.
some quotes you clearly dont want to deal with.
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EDIT: just wanted to add to this already long post what happened to the disciples and their associates.
Matthew - killed by stabbing as ordered by King Hircanus
James, son of Alphaeous - crucified
James, brother of Jesus - thrown down from a height, stoned and then beaten to death at the hands of Ananias (circa AD 66)
John - tortured by boiling oil, exiled to Patmos in AD 95
Mark - burned during Roman emperor Trajan's reign
Peter - crucified upside-down by the gardens of Nero on the Vatican hill circa AD 64
Andrew - crucified on an "X" shaped cross by Aegeas, governor of the Edessenes, around AD 80
Philip - stoned and crucified in Hierapolis, Phrygia
Simon - crucified in Egypt under Trajan's reign
Thomas - death by spear thrust in Calamina, India
Thaddaeous - killed by arrows
James, son of Zebedee - killed by sword in AD 44 by order of King Herod Agrippa I of Judea
Bartholomew - beaten, flayed alive, crucified upside down, then beheaded

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Nasty stuff. But I can say that, cos unlike you i've always been against people being persecuted for their religion (if that is, indeed, why they were all killed...), whereas you're enthusiastically in favour of it.

I thought the Christians were doing the persecuting according to you?

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it's a shame you didn't put any full stops in here, because this might be a record for the most number of fallacies in a single sentence.

Big Ups
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1. "find me in history any religion..." - you must realise you're asking the wrong guy here

fair enough, point though is you wont. anyone else reading this the challenge is also at you.
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2. "claimed that God was in human form" - you haven't proven that jesus said any such thing.

long scripture post #2
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John 14:7-10 [7] If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." [8] Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." [9] Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, `Show us the Father'? [10] Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

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John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."

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John 14:11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.

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John 10:37-38 [37] Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. [38] But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."

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Matthew 27:43 He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, 'I am the Son of God.'"

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John 17:11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name--the name you gave me--so that they may be one as we are one.

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John 10:31-33 [31] Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, [32] but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" [33] "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

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John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.


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3. "did not forcibly take over or preach through force" - are you fucking retarded? what is Hell? jesus says follow me and do as i say or you'll go to hell.

wheres the force?
Jesus: Im God heres a consequence if you dont believe me even though Iv been performing miracles for years and it shoudlnt be this difficult
Man: I dont believe you anyway. why are you forcing me to go to hell?
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4. "outside sources corroborate the story" - they do more to undermine than corroborate

where and how?
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5. this isn't exactly a fallacy, but rather something odd i've noticed about you.
you speak highly of the disciples who supposedly stuck to their religion even in the face of threats of death and torture. if this is admirable, why are you so contemptuous towards me sticking to my intellectual position in the face of torture?

of course its intellectual to you Listen . The point of the disciples sticking to their death and torture is that its reasonable to assume they are not lying.
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it isn't exactly the same thing, if only because your threats are obviously lies, but if you're gonna praise the disciples who kept their faith under fire, can't you admit a grudging respect for someone like me who continues to be honest and open about my non-belief no matter what you threaten me with?

of course, I have no contempt for you or your positions even though it may come across that way its just because we are in debate. I greatly appreciate people being open bout their beliefs. what I do not respect however are people who claim to be open but when questions come up they are dodged or twisted around. believe it or not I have respect for you spoony.

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