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| Re: WBC [message #443635 is a reply to message #443627] |
Mon, 07 February 2011 01:13   |
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Starbuzzz
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Registered: June 2008
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| Dave Anderson wrote on Fri, 04 February 2011 00:44 |
Everything you wrote is a result of your experience in life, and nobody elses. Thus, leading you to believe what you do, and set the foundation for the principles by which you live.
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Your entire post is based on the wrong premise that atheism is a belief system. You can't make a entirely wrong statement such as above when you yourself don't seem to understand what atheism is or what the concept of reason is. It doesn't work this way.
Regardless of what we think, the truth will be constant. Is the earth flat? We now know it is not. Is the earth the centre of the universe? We now know it is not. See, the answers will always be out there but our attitude to the question is crucial to us finding them.
With a theistic attitude of upholding dogma, the answers will NEVER be found. How many times have you repeated the same thing over and over again? I have trimmed the possibilities according to probability, historical record, and fostered a healthy attitude that is ready to include more evidence as it becomes available.
I came to the conclusion I hold now thru intellectual curiosity; a need to find a better explanation because the old one (yours) didn't make any. i.e, initial questioning and doubts arose not due to life experience, but thru seeing the fallacy presented to me as fact. Your statement doesn't hold.
I was less than 10 years old when I began doubting the christian concept of the soul after observing birds, for example. Sure did take a lot of life experience to ask that question at such an early age, huh?
My point is, I came to my position using reasoning whereas, a believer would be more motivated by the "struggles" in their lives and the need for some sort of emotional anchor to hang on to. The belief systems essentially simplify AND personify the unknowns of the universe into a male-gendered "God" with a capital G also referred to as "Lord" and provides a cosmic friend-in-need during times of doubt and fear. I am pretty sure without the "Lord" many will feel empty and vulnerable in life and I would stand by them though never accept that as the truth.
| Dave Anderson wrote on Fri, 04 February 2011 00:44 |
Point being, belief is through experience; your experience.
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Absolutely. But how is this applicable to atheism? Christianity heavily relies on the emotional rollercoasters of its believers' minds to keep them in-check praying. I merely point this out for the lie it is. The important question is, are these factual?
Having good warm-fuzzy feelings inside and praying and singing "Better is one day in your courts!" is absolutely fine. But it is entirely another matter to press this as fact when it is quiet clearly not.
| Dave Anderson wrote on Fri, 04 February 2011 00:44 |
No one is going to change what you have been through, how you feel, or what you believe except for yourself.
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Not entirely true. Atheism isn't a belief system and it doesn't work as such.
It is a logical evidence-based system of reasoning and critical thinking that uses all available information while pressing for the need for new information and evidence. A believer's mind doesn't at all work the same way (as a former believer, I can vouch for it dead accurately): old validated information doesn't matter, new information and evidence doesn't matter. Rather, it is a dogma-based constant; a mental "comfort zone" that OUTRIGHT REJECTS old, new, and ANY information contrary to the dogmatic teachings it was indoctrinated with in the first place.
So you need to apply what you said to yourself. I stand absolutely ready to change my view pending new evidence and reasoning; you probably won't.
| Dave Anderson wrote on Fri, 04 February 2011 00:44 |
No one can tell you God exists and make you believe it.
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This statement works only if the "you" in the sentence is a well educated adult that can reason back. It seems to work easily on everyone else; most effectively (and sadly) on children. In fact, that's the best time to indoctrinate the mind; when it is young and unable to defend itself.
Another group are adults that are particularly vulnerable due to issues in life as well as those who don't have the intellectual bargaining power to resist a soft-speaking but ultimately delusional pastor or believer.
This is how the religion has kept itself alive. Not because its followers "find" their god but because of indoctrination and the fraudulent abuse of human psychology.
You may resent me saying this but I have seen EVERY shade of this ghastly religion known as Christianity. I still listen to them just incase I hear something new; so far it is the same recycled arguments. Though, I must thank you for offering it from a fresh prespective.
| Dave Anderson wrote on Fri, 04 February 2011 00:44 |
My only advice to you is do not condemn a person for believing what they do.
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How is defending a position equate to "condemning" others for their beliefs? A degree of resentment is to be expected by a believer if such beliefs collectively and negatively affect those who do not share similar beliefs; whether it be the 9/11 hijackers or the advocates for DADT.
I choose to reply to theists all the time NOT because I want to put them/you down (ridiculous) but to offer a valid counterpoint that exists to your "truth."
You have something to sell. I am not obligated to buy it. But I can tell you why I am not interested in buying it as I do all the time. In all universal honesty, this analogy is absolutely accurate. You seem to think I am doing so because I either blindly "hate" the seller or the product. Please see past this as it is not true.
| Dave Anderson wrote on Fri, 04 February 2011 00:44 |
Not a single Christian, or servant of God can sit down and say "this is why I believe in God and why you should reconsider your beliefs". That is utter crap.
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Absolutely. Those people can use your advice. Best of all, my recommendation is they FIRST take a course in comparative religions.
| Dave Anderson wrote on Fri, 04 February 2011 00:44 |
These people may not be the smartest people in the world, but through their own experiences in life they have come to know God, and form that relationship. Someone's relationship with God, is not something that can be explained to anyone else. They understand it because it is their own.
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| Dave Anderson wrote on Fri, 04 February 2011 00:44 |
Understand that they believe what they do as a result of their own life experiences. Just as they do not understand what you have been through in life, you don't understand their experiences either. Being told an experience is one thing, but being that person and living it is inexcusably different.
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You can use this argument effectively against someone who has been brought up in a non-religious or non-christian environment. AND so I am pleased to inform that it is not applicable to me. I had known, savoured, and lived as a christian for the good majority of my life in a christian household. A good 22 years. I know what it's like to be a believer. The ONLY THING I happened to have done was to to actually seek answers to my doubts.
Also, this is the plain old argument from seniority. I hear this tripe from the older people in my family all the time including evangelists. "We are older, we have seen the work of god all our long lives, we KNOW about god's work in our lives, you will too."
If they had an ounch of reasoning capacity, they would see how short-sighted they have been all their lives. This is what belief systems do; break down a person's logical thinking capacity so they run on emotions. I can't blame them.
Young and old, all believers are like this man Dawkins counters here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKGtcVoBhBQ&feature=player_embedded
I feel bad for him and won't mind having a chat with him or being his friend. I would give the same response though much nicely as he is absolutely honest and sincere but sadly he is wrong.
I have no problem with how they have chose to live their lives. I am truly happy they were able to find solace in their dieties, dogmas, and ideals that kept them going through life. I am glad that it kept them alive, happy, and content. But if they want to sell that to me, the onus is on them to do a good job with the marketing. A product that is defective in design won't sell. That should explain why despite the most hideous threat of punishment in human history (hell), the religion is failing.
| Dave Anderson wrote on Fri, 04 February 2011 00:44 |
It is not elitism for providing advice to seek out knowledge from other people then who you are around.
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You are giving this advice to someone who has already used it to its full potential. I have already mentioned how this is exactly what I DID. I reached out to other people other than my immediate family who are Christians themselves and I found their dogmatic views extremely unsatisfying. I ended up atheist. To take this advice again is to go back to these very same delusional folks and get their opinion; and I think you can see how counterproductive it would be.
It doesn't help me that you repeat the same views they hold.
| Dave Anderson wrote on Fri, 04 February 2011 00:44 |
Any intelligent being knows that if you are honest and legitimate about learning something, that you would truly utilize all of your resources, and take in information from every input you can find, up until the point where you can make a self educated decision for yourself.
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Again, you have to see my reply to the previous quote. I realized this a long long time ago, friend. If I had not done so, I would never have left christianity. Tell me in all honesty, have you ever considered going to a devout Hindu and asked for advice? I hope you don't chuckle this time! I have learned some incredibly valuable lessons regarding compassion to lifeforms and animal cruelty; lessons christianity does not teach.
I have also kept a much more open mind on afterlife mysteries (if there are any) thanks to listening to what agnostics have to say. In other words, you will be hardpressed to find a more open mind to give new information to. I am desperately hungry for it. What I can't do is take something that is clearly illogical and have "faith" that it is true.
| Dave Anderson wrote on Fri, 04 February 2011 00:44 |
I am not here to pick apart everything you say to disprove it, or insult your intelligence and/or beliefs.
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I am merely defending my position and saying why exactly I don't share the same views as yourself. Or more importantly, why I found my previous views difficult to advocate for. If this comes off to you or anyone as "me on a high horse condemning others" for what they believe in, the least I can do is sincerely say that's not what I am doing.
| Dave Anderson wrote on Fri, 04 February 2011 00:44 |
I can tell you all day long that God exists, but that does not accomplish anything.
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For thousands of years, religions have thrived by using the concept of faith, the belief in something where there is no evidence for it.
It was only a matter of time before a newer standard was going to develop to try to sort the mess we have now; why is a evidence-based approach sound so bad to theists?
| Dave Anderson wrote on Fri, 04 February 2011 00:44 |
Spoony reminds me of a few of my close friends that are indeed atheists; they are very intelligent and ask a lot of questions, they discuss the matter at hand. They do not however do the latter, pick apart what you say claim you are wrong or do not understand because thier life experiences are different from mine; nor do we judge one another based on what influences we have had, or visa versa.
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Obvisouly there's a difference between real life (where people will put on their best face and even lie to your eyes). You can expect more honesty in an internet debate made to specifically debate the issue. I am sure you will hear the same verbal accounts if the debate was in-person.
| Dave Anderson wrote on Fri, 04 February 2011 00:44 |
I am not here to argue or pursuade you into thinking their is a God, but my opinion is simply that a subject like this, a belief that essentially effects your entire life, is not something that is decided over night and set in stone.
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For a believer, yes. It's a emotional rollercoaster life journey that has nothing to do with intellect or reason but pure emotions, convictions, and faith; the immediate answers.
But that's not how a "lack of belief" works. Most atheists have been born into religious families and have made a educated and well-reasoned conclusion that their religion is fradulent.
It took me three years to come to the conclusion. Life experience won't matter to change me mind; new evidence and information will. The sooner the better; if not, it still makes no difference as I would have lived my life fully eitherway. Though I would hope future generations will uncover more.
| Dave Anderson wrote on Fri, 04 February 2011 00:44 |
My opinion is that through your life experiences your own opinions may or may not change. You will mature, mentally/psychologically, and you may reconsider things, or you may change over time. Your beliefs will probably change. Maybe alot, maybe a little. What you believe right now and in the future is for you to decide.
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Once again as in many times, atheism is not a belief. The reasoning mind doesn't work the same way as the delusion mind.
Plus this bit of advice sounds incredibly similar to what that disgraced Ted Haggard arrogantly said to Dawkins; please watch from 4 mins onwards:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZC1cMyA-Hhw
Not replying to anyone in particular, theists love to say this kind of advice because first, it gives them breathing space and buys them more time while deflecting the entire topic at hand. While they ignore religious history, deny ancient history, and selectively practice the bible, the truth that we all seek to discover of our existence lies untouched.
The fact is that we all live in a very small planet, Dave. We all have our differences of opinions and the way we look at things. But that is not an excuse to disregard our differences, look back at how far we have come along, and how far we have to go, and to suspend our ability to reason, and close the mind to advice.
Arrogant theists like Ted Haggard can spew such propaganda all they want. In the end, despite their grandest of shows, the question remains; was it all worth it? Was it based on fact? Was it logical? Looking at our great diverse history of the human race and the history yet to be written, the answer is a painful No.
| Dave Anderson wrote on Fri, 04 February 2011 00:44 |
There's no God? That's your belief? Good for you, I'm happy you feel that way.
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You mock here without trying to see WHY I arrived at this position. Plus, it's not a belief (again). Does the ancient religions and present day religions mean anything to you? Is it all YOUR "God?"
Here is something I asked before in my previous reply you did not respond to; requoted:
Toggle Spoiler| Starbuzzz wrote on Thu, 03 February 2011 23:18 |
| Dave Anderson wrote on Thu, 03 February 2011 19:54 |
I really couldn't help to chuckle here.. What I said is a little abstract. To me, it's a bit of direction to someone who is searching or trying to educate themselves, or even try to understand "God". You cannot believe in something truly, with full faith just by reading it from a book. You cannot be forced upon yourself, to believe in any God, 'a' God, or be forced to agree that all of this information is true. It is a decision that each individual has to make for themselves.
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You seem to misunderstand. If one needs "a bit of direction" to find your god, then your god doesn't deserve to be found, let alone worshipped. I hope my example wasn't that hard to understand; left all alone in the jungle and growing up by yourself, would you have, all by yourself, come to worship the god you worship now and refer to as "Lord" with the gender of a
male? Please tell me this.
You had influence, rumours, parental teaching, church indoctrination, geographical factors (such as being American born in a predominantly Christian nation), etc etc. All these factors influenced you in your decision as they do to people of different faiths. Take away such factors and tell me if one can truly find YOUR Lord? Are you sure you have found the the right god? That you have found the right answer in your lifetime?
I would hope now my example with finding a nature goddess would start to make sense.
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| Dave Anderson wrote on Fri, 04 February 2011 00:44 |
However, a few years from now when something happens in your life that effects you on such a massive level that causes you to rethink things like this, you will probably look back and see that it has taken all that time, and through that experience, to get to that point in your life where your beliefs are more mature then they are now. I am not saying something is going to happen all of a sudden where you feel there is a God, but I am saying things will happen in life that will either change what you believe or build upon what you already belief; again, your beliefs will mature.
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What I said above with Ted Haggard applies here as well. Though there is a lot more here.
If there is something that people want to know about the christian religion and how it keeps going, it is all summed up in this paragraph.
Essentially, it is the argument from misfortune/ofrtune. "Misfortune" is a meek word to use here; disaster and tragedy would be better. And so, I feel there is something abhorrent in this statement (though I blame the religion, not Dave). This is how religion essentially survives; by playing on the fears and emotions of the people when they do face such events.
"Rethink things like this"? and "feel there is a God?"
This is not a belief system, my friend. A reasoning mind doesn't work that way. We are all infalliable humans. If you came up to me and surprised me, I would most probably jump. If you clapped your hands in front of me, my eyes would shut on reflex. You can waterboard me to make me change my mind and YET, SOMETHING will never change.
My point?
The ultimate truth in the Universe and beyond WILL NOT change at the whimsical emotional tides of a mere human mind.
As a fine example, it doesn't matter if I come home to see my family dead or heard some horrible news, the fact that hundreds of religions existed before christianity wouldn't change. The fact that the continents were all one at some time won't change. The history of everything won't have changed despite when the mind allows itself to delude in times of extreme urgency. This is natural ofcourse, but theists use this as a point of speciality; it is plain wrong.
You may be in an airliner which gets struck by lighting at 30,000 feet and bursts into a million pieces. And you may yet somehow survive and land with your seat in some forest and walk away with a few cuts. No doubt, you will be grateful to the the "Lord" for saving your life. But it really happened to this German woman who survived this real life incident:
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/07/02/germany.aircrash.survivor/index.h tml
In an age of madness where short-sighted people quickly have used the word "miracle" and "God" in the last 2 jet crashes with 1 survivor each (no miracles, let along a thought for the others killed), the story of this Juliane woman is refreshing. It is just incredibly sad that we have this story at the cost of so many human lives; maybe we shouldn't waste it.
People should be incredibly proud to have a living human being that despite the ghastly traumatic event in her life, NEVER suspended her abilty to reason unlike a believer or another weak-minded individual who would be more suspectible to say "God is real" at such a moment of harsh reality when it was down to pure circumstance. While I don't blame victims of trauma to seek the help of a divine entity in times of such emotional trauma, it is reckless of theists to claim that such divine entities "become true" as Dave wrongly states above. It is completely false.
The harsh truth of the Universe remains constant despite human trauma. This is exactly what I think and you would be hardpressed to disagree. Back in Dec 13, 2009 in a visit to India, me and a friend of mine were driving; Indian roads are supremely dangerous; the car that just paid the toll in front of us ended up in a deadly crash:
http://beta.thehindu.com/news/cities/Chennai/article64734.ece
Just imagine how I felt; I was only the 3rd car behind it. There was severe injuries and on-the-spot deaths. I saw the destroyed bodies myself. It could have been me. My entire life, though not specifically me, is full of me seeing the misfortune of others. It has yet to befall me; maybe it will.
After 9/11, church attendance rose. If people had a sense of reason and understanding of the human history of warfare, they would have known that everyday has a chance to be a 9/11 and that nothing should be taken for granted. So you tell me, why didn't "YOUR Lord" exist on 9/10 to thousands but did so on 9/11? Tell me in all honestly.
Concluding, our brain that is suspectible to such hallucination and lapse of judgment is not the good source to find "God." If this is how your "God" reveals himself, then he doesn't deserve to be worshipped. He makes it much more harder on himself when hell is introduced as well.
Ultimately Dave, short bursts of delusion under such emotional duress isn't the source of finding "God." Evidence and new information is; till that becomes available, we can all keep an open mind. I don't have the answer and I doubt anyone on the planet does. What we can do is stick together and look for it.
edit: typos
[Updated on: Mon, 07 February 2011 11:26] Report message to a moderator |
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