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Re: don't ask don't tell [message #442451 is a reply to message #442444]

Tue, 11 January 2011 09:38

CarrierII
Messages: 3804
Registered: February 2006
Location: England

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General (3 Stars)

Spoony wrote on Tue, 11 January 2011 14:56

CarrierII wrote on Tue, 11 January 2011 08:35

Spoony wrote on Tue, 11 January 2011 13:02

CarrierII wrote on Tue, 11 January 2011 03:58

From the perspective of those who hold faith, atheists attempting to enforce secularism is, I'm sure, obnoxious.

Yes, for exactly the same reason that from a dictator's perspective, democracy and those who insist upon it are "obnoxious". EXACTLY the same reason.

Doesn't stop it causing offense, I never claimed it was a reason to stop enforcing state secularism.

offending dictators and theocrats is usually a sign that you're doing something right

Only right in your opinion, that your opinion maybe more justifiable is of little difference to those who care neither for your opinion nor the justification. (That's not me, incidentally, I'm merely pointing out that a lot of people who live in religious states like it. Sure, some people don't like it, and the humanitarian record isn't good either)

Quote:

Does it help if I phrase it as "Your God, or insistance upon a lack thereof,"?

No; if there really was a god I'd still be very firmly in favour of secular democracy.

A hypothetical God might not be in favour of secularism, but that's an entire discussion of its own. Very Happy

yes, we can have it very quickly

1. prove there's a god
2. prove that what this god wants is what the holy book says he wants
3. explain why his wishes trump democracy

nobody's done the first one never mind all three

The hypothetical God in the scenario I created with that sentence isn't about holy books and proof. He's more about using lightning bolts on people he doesn't like. It was a joke, hence the ":d" smiley.

I see where the confusion came from (my lack of an editor) - Let me try again: In a hypothetical world with a powerful deity that certifiably exists - secularism may not be the best option in terms of long term survival (due to aforementioned lightning bolts).

Quote:

Faith is the belief in something. We speak of "faith in humanity", for instance.

i was talking about the most common usage of the word "faith". if you meant a general positive opinion instead then that's obviously an entirely different question.

Having a generally positive opinion about a species hardwired for selfishness (due to evolution, struggle to survive etc) is hard, thus it requires a belief people can act better than their worst - that is having "faith in humanity" - not having "faith in humanity" is feeling that all people will be selfish etc.

Quote:

Not from your perspective, doesn't make your perspective (IE, secularism) the best (or indeed, worst) option from someone else's perspective, though.

a secular democracy is the best option for everybody. religious countries are only good for a small minority of one particular religion, and bad for everybody else - including, usually, many people from that religion.

Not in the opinion of those who benefit from a non-secular arrangement.

Quote:

I have several Christian friends who keep their faith to themselves, and have never once asserted to myself, nor anyone else, as far as I'm aware, that non-believers will be "tortured", or otherwise persecuted or punished.

If they haven't said so, has it occurred to you to wonder if they think so? If I thought a fellow human being was in danger of being tortured, the very least I'd do is warn them - even if it was someone I didn't like. Friends?

If they do think so, I'm not too scared of what someone else thinks (or says, until their speech goes from a general threat to a specific one) - to be paranoid of what other people's thoughts are is a shortcut to madness, for you will never be able to tell what others are thinking. The good news is it doesn't matter, until their thoughts become actions, they can't touch you. This isn't "Inception" (which is a good movie).

Quote:

Once again, it's the "being obnoxious" thing - forcibly telling people they will "go to hell" if they don't believe is wrong. (Free speech otherwise protects them. If they wish to post stupid billboards, that's fine. We can all have a good laugh)

Free speech protects them? I assume you mean it also protects someone calling in a bomb threat, for example, or any conman who lies to you to get your money, or someone who tells you he'll kick your ass if you don't hand over your wallet. Does the word "coercion" mean anything to you?

See the word "forcibly" in italics? We're on the same page. (I don't find a written message at all scary, unless the threat is specific - I don't think we'll ever see billboards insisting that a "Mr J. Smith" of <some address> must convert or we'll attack him", not least because the paper trail will easily lead to the people who had it displayed)

Quote:

Implying that all faith is as bad as heroin. Again, needing to distinguish between harmless faith (eg: attending church) and harmful faith (eg: encouraging radicalisation of communities, children etc).

I didn't compare heroin to 'faith', I compared it to hell. This comparison is unfair to heroin; heroin is absolutely nowhere near as bad as hell.

Perhaps my fault for not being clear: when I said "... find a lack of hellfire scary", I meant the whole afterlife shebang that religions like to peddle - death scares a lot of people, with good reason, it's very damn scary.

Edit: Expanding upon this point: these people also can't see how a world could work without threats like eternal damnation to keep people from misbehaving.

Quote:

Faith that some people wanted me to be alive stopped me killing myself. I can't prove my worth to them, to myself, but it stopped me.

Did you have a good reason to think that? I'm not asking for lab results, I'm asking did you have a good reason to think "these people wanted me to be alive"; if not, why did you think it?

See reborn's post. I'm glad you display that much compassion towards your fellow man. One of the nice things about my Christian friends is the amount of compassion they have, which they assure me is related to their faith...

Renguard is a wonderful initiative

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		don't ask don't tell By: Starbuzzz on Thu, 16 December 2010 11:07
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: nikki6ixx on Thu, 16 December 2010 12:29
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: snpr1101 on Thu, 16 December 2010 18:17
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Dover on Fri, 17 December 2010 00:19
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: R315r4z0r on Thu, 16 December 2010 13:23
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: bmr_71 on Thu, 16 December 2010 19:54
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: R315r4z0r on Thu, 16 December 2010 20:12
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: InternetThug on Fri, 17 December 2010 08:34
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: R315r4z0r on Fri, 17 December 2010 12:30
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Pyr0man1c on Fri, 17 December 2010 14:41
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: nikki6ixx on Thu, 16 December 2010 13:30
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Spoony on Thu, 16 December 2010 15:35
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: bmr_71 on Thu, 16 December 2010 22:46
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Crimson on Fri, 17 December 2010 05:49
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: snpr1101 on Fri, 17 December 2010 07:08
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: bmr_71 on Fri, 17 December 2010 09:53
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Fri, 17 December 2010 11:09
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: CarrierII on Fri, 17 December 2010 13:22
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Tunaman on Sat, 18 December 2010 04:33
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: bmr_71 on Sat, 18 December 2010 09:16
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: R315r4z0r on Sat, 18 December 2010 13:12
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: bmr_71 on Sat, 18 December 2010 13:19
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Jerad2142 on Wed, 05 January 2011 15:14
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: R315r4z0r on Wed, 05 January 2011 16:25
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Jerad2142 on Wed, 05 January 2011 16:43
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: bmr_71 on Sat, 18 December 2010 13:23
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: R315r4z0r on Sat, 18 December 2010 13:57
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Pyr0man1c on Sat, 18 December 2010 14:34
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: R315r4z0r on Sat, 18 December 2010 15:50
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Tue, 21 December 2010 11:50
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Herr Surth on Sat, 18 December 2010 15:54
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: GEORGE ZIMMER on Mon, 20 December 2010 23:57
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: NukeIt15 on Tue, 21 December 2010 00:46
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Starbuzzz on Tue, 21 December 2010 04:38
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: snpr1101 on Tue, 21 December 2010 06:15
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Starbuzzz on Tue, 21 December 2010 06:42
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Pyr0man1c on Tue, 21 December 2010 12:10
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: InternetThug on Tue, 21 December 2010 15:20
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: R315r4z0r on Tue, 21 December 2010 15:50
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Spoony on Wed, 22 December 2010 08:05
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: InternetThug on Tue, 21 December 2010 19:34
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Pyr0man1c on Wed, 22 December 2010 03:51
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: snpr1101 on Wed, 22 December 2010 04:20
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: R315r4z0r on Tue, 21 December 2010 21:04
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: InternetThug on Tue, 21 December 2010 22:16
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Rocko on Tue, 21 December 2010 22:22
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: appshot on Wed, 22 December 2010 02:25
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: InternetThug on Wed, 22 December 2010 09:54
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Spoony on Wed, 22 December 2010 10:30
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Wed, 22 December 2010 10:32
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: R315r4z0r on Wed, 22 December 2010 17:52
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Starbuzzz on Wed, 22 December 2010 22:08
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Wed, 22 December 2010 22:52
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Starbuzzz on Thu, 23 December 2010 17:01
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Thu, 23 December 2010 21:15
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Starbuzzz on Fri, 24 December 2010 08:14
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Spoony on Fri, 24 December 2010 08:29
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Dover on Fri, 24 December 2010 10:15
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Fri, 24 December 2010 12:11
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: R315r4z0r on Thu, 23 December 2010 21:59
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: SSADMVR on Wed, 22 December 2010 10:12
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Herr Surth on Wed, 22 December 2010 10:21
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: InternetThug on Wed, 22 December 2010 10:38
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Wed, 22 December 2010 10:47
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Pyr0man1c on Wed, 22 December 2010 10:57
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Starbuzzz on Wed, 22 December 2010 22:09
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Pyr0man1c on Thu, 23 December 2010 02:42
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Spoony on Wed, 22 December 2010 16:10
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Rocko on Wed, 22 December 2010 16:18
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: snpr1101 on Wed, 22 December 2010 17:30
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: InternetThug on Wed, 22 December 2010 22:16
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: InternetThug on Wed, 22 December 2010 23:37
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Hitman on Wed, 22 December 2010 23:43
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Spoony on Thu, 23 December 2010 04:05
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Herr Surth on Thu, 23 December 2010 04:11
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Hitman on Thu, 23 December 2010 05:35
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Rocko on Thu, 23 December 2010 16:37
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: InternetThug on Thu, 23 December 2010 18:14
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Starbuzzz on Thu, 23 December 2010 18:20
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: InternetThug on Thu, 23 December 2010 18:36
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Spoony on Thu, 23 December 2010 21:12
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: InternetThug on Thu, 23 December 2010 22:45
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: CarrierII on Fri, 24 December 2010 01:30
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: snpr1101 on Fri, 24 December 2010 01:45
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Pyr0man1c on Sun, 09 January 2011 03:37
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Starbuzzz on Sun, 09 January 2011 12:58
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: R315r4z0r on Sun, 09 January 2011 15:46
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Dover on Fri, 24 December 2010 07:01
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Pyr0man1c on Fri, 24 December 2010 11:13
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Pyr0man1c on Fri, 24 December 2010 11:16
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: R315r4z0r on Fri, 24 December 2010 14:00
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Fri, 24 December 2010 21:48
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Rocko on Fri, 24 December 2010 18:22
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Dover on Sat, 25 December 2010 10:51
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Sat, 25 December 2010 14:28
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Starbuzzz on Fri, 31 December 2010 09:55
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Fri, 31 December 2010 16:05
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Starbuzzz on Fri, 31 December 2010 19:06
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Fri, 31 December 2010 23:35
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: NukeIt15 on Fri, 24 December 2010 22:58
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Rocko on Sat, 25 December 2010 01:30
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: liquidv2 on Sat, 25 December 2010 07:20
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: liquidv2 on Fri, 31 December 2010 19:30
		pulling in and out again... By: Muad Dib15 on Fri, 31 December 2010 22:29
		Re: pulling in and out again... By: nikki6ixx on Sat, 01 January 2011 10:50
		Re: pulling in and out again... By: Dover on Wed, 05 January 2011 11:43
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: InternetThug on Wed, 05 January 2011 17:56
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Jerad2142 on Thu, 06 January 2011 17:24
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Wed, 05 January 2011 21:47
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: R315r4z0r on Wed, 05 January 2011 22:17
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Wed, 05 January 2011 23:20
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: R315r4z0r on Thu, 06 January 2011 00:47
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Starbuzzz on Thu, 06 January 2011 03:00
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Thu, 06 January 2011 08:41
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Jerad2142 on Thu, 06 January 2011 17:29
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: InternetThug on Wed, 05 January 2011 22:25
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: R315r4z0r on Wed, 05 January 2011 22:32
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Pyr0man1c on Wed, 05 January 2011 22:47
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: InternetThug on Wed, 05 January 2011 23:53
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: InternetThug on Thu, 06 January 2011 11:11
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: R315r4z0r on Thu, 06 January 2011 11:40
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Pyr0man1c on Thu, 06 January 2011 12:44
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: CarrierII on Thu, 06 January 2011 14:44
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: R315r4z0r on Thu, 06 January 2011 15:58
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: appshot on Thu, 06 January 2011 15:30
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: bmr_71 on Thu, 06 January 2011 18:33
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: R315r4z0r on Thu, 06 January 2011 19:22
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: nikki6ixx on Fri, 07 January 2011 09:32
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Pyr0man1c on Fri, 07 January 2011 14:46
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Starbuzzz on Fri, 07 January 2011 19:30
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Fri, 07 January 2011 20:07
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Starbuzzz on Fri, 07 January 2011 21:16
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: R315r4z0r on Fri, 07 January 2011 21:24
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Starbuzzz on Fri, 07 January 2011 21:55
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: InternetThug on Fri, 07 January 2011 22:00
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Fri, 07 January 2011 23:09
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Starbuzzz on Sat, 08 January 2011 08:21
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Sat, 08 January 2011 11:24
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Muad Dib15 on Sat, 08 January 2011 14:58
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Starbuzzz on Sat, 08 January 2011 15:42
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Sat, 08 January 2011 17:37
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: CarrierII on Sat, 08 January 2011 09:21
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: kadoosh on Sat, 08 January 2011 09:30
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Spoony on Sat, 08 January 2011 15:53
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: HaTe on Sat, 08 January 2011 16:13
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: grant89uk on Sun, 09 January 2011 09:33
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: CarrierII on Sun, 09 January 2011 13:45
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Pyr0man1c on Sun, 09 January 2011 14:43
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: CarrierII on Mon, 10 January 2011 10:37
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Mon, 10 January 2011 11:01
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Pyr0man1c on Mon, 10 January 2011 13:21
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Herr Surth on Mon, 10 January 2011 12:18
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Mon, 10 January 2011 13:22
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Rocko on Mon, 10 January 2011 18:20
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Starbuzzz on Mon, 10 January 2011 22:23
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: nikki6ixx on Tue, 11 January 2011 00:10
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Tue, 11 January 2011 01:43
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: CarrierII on Tue, 11 January 2011 02:58
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: reborn on Tue, 11 January 2011 04:41
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Herr Surth on Tue, 11 January 2011 05:36
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Spoony on Tue, 11 January 2011 06:02
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: CarrierII on Tue, 11 January 2011 07:35
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Spoony on Tue, 11 January 2011 07:56
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: reborn on Tue, 11 January 2011 08:17
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: CarrierII on Tue, 11 January 2011 09:38
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Spoony on Tue, 11 January 2011 11:09
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: reborn on Wed, 12 January 2011 06:12
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Spoony on Wed, 12 January 2011 06:24
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: reborn on Wed, 12 January 2011 07:59
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Spoony on Wed, 12 January 2011 11:28
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: CarrierII on Wed, 12 January 2011 13:17
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Spoony on Wed, 12 January 2011 14:06
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: CarrierII on Tue, 11 January 2011 12:03
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Muad Dib15 on Tue, 11 January 2011 22:30
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Tue, 11 January 2011 23:51
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Spoony on Wed, 12 January 2011 04:59
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Wed, 12 January 2011 06:54
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: R315r4z0r on Wed, 12 January 2011 16:12
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: reborn on Wed, 12 January 2011 23:39
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Spoony on Thu, 13 January 2011 01:18
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: reborn on Thu, 13 January 2011 01:49
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Spoony on Thu, 13 January 2011 03:30
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Pyr0man1c on Thu, 13 January 2011 03:53
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: reborn on Thu, 13 January 2011 04:54
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Pyr0man1c on Thu, 13 January 2011 02:37
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: reborn on Thu, 13 January 2011 02:49
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Pyr0man1c on Thu, 13 January 2011 03:01

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