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Re: Liquid trying to understand British logic - cleared [message #438743 is a reply to message #438525] Mon, 01 November 2010 15:52 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
liquidv2 is currently offline  liquidv2
Messages: 3407
Registered: February 2007
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General (3 Stars)
Quote:

i think you're focusing too much on the excuses and not enough on the complete absence of effort or results.

i'm explaining why i feel there may have been an absence
just saying "no one gave a shit" could be entirely true, but i like to think that it's not the case
and my suggestions make sense

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why? i don't have magic powers, i don't have access to some source of wisdom that's denied everyone else. if your statement boils down to "you're the only one with the sufficient dedication" then it doesn't belong in an argument against me, does it?

not really an argument that makes logical sense, no

Quote:

uh no, letting him play was what probably would've caused that. like i said, the global admins thought that me and blkst0rm were the only decent people in a community that was - aside from we two - a complete cesspool and not at all worth CLAN WARS's resources to host. the exception were the two admins who ran things as fairly as we did no matter how retarded the general community was being at the time.

alright, so it could have
it was possible, but not certain
i wouldn't call it a cesspool but it seems odd that no one else felt he should be banned or didn't speak up about it

Quote:

well, if the entire anti-pointsfix crowd (everyone except me and whiskey, supposedly) clubbed together and still couldn't with their combined might do better than spoony, you might think this would make people think that spoony's doing something right and perhaps, just perhaps, his decisions are worth some respect.

in time

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instead we seem to've had a situation where the community needed spoony to survive just as long as spoony didn't make any decisions. perhaps i can just wave a flag from the touchline or something.

Big Ups

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no, that analogy does not work at all. a politician is your employee. your vote decides who gets the job, your taxes pay their salary, they're (supposed to be, at least) there to serve you. people always compare the clanwars league to a government, and the analogy fails on every level. it's more like a cinema or a bowling alley that the owner lets you use for free. i let you play there, or you could play in someone else's bowling alley, or make your own, or not go bowling at all. if you play in my bowling alley you play by my rules, if i decide that there's no smoking or whatever. you can smoke in someone else's bowling alley for all i care. you can smoke out in the street for all i care. you can make your own bowling alley where smoking is allowed for all i care.
in my bowling alley, thou shalt not smoke.

what if a poll was held and smoking beat not smoking? Surprised

Quote:

i would have thought that you have your hands full enough with things i have said without needing to deal with things i didn't say.

i pick up on other things whether you intended them or not
some things you probably didn't even think of or mean at all, which is why i asked to be sure

Quote:

"treated them as fact" is your euphemism for "explained why they were right", and "dismissed them" is your reverse-euphemism for "explained why they were wrong".

i disagree, but i don't have an example so i'll drop it

Quote:

i'd certainly have responded to a question about MSGTPain, unless you're talking about the thread that got locked (with one of my posts bizarrely deleted right before)

nah, i'm pretty sure it was in a PM

Quote:

and yet you can't point to a clanwars player who actually did DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT, can you? like i said, you're focusing too much on their excuses and ignoring the fact that nobody can be found who put in the slightest effort.

this is true - none of them tried to make their own league
there may be more reasons for that than simply "they didn't care" but it doesn't matter since your point is "it never happened"

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i just had the gut feeling that simpee was telling the truth for a change, and his explanation certainly fit the known facts.

pfft, your gut or your mind thinking simpee's finally telling the truth about something because it betters your argument
your gut is full of Lies, and straw

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yes, for quite a significant period of time actually. CLAN WARS set up the league a few months after the game's release (in large part due to the absolute shittiness of Westwood's official clan ladder). that would have been around summer 2002. i didn't become an admin until summer 2005.

cool renehistory
so how did they run things before you came along?

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it's hard to square these comments with getting called the "worst admin in history" whenever i make a decision that someone disapproves of

you couldn't have been that bad because no one got up and made their own Spoony-free clanwars league

Quote:

you're confusing "spoony playing in the league" with "spoony being the admin"

i thought you said stopped playing, and that people asked you all the time but that you declined
fine, that makes sense
all you're doing is strengthening my statement that "Spoony is clanwars"

Quote:

i would never say something as ridiculous as that.

then what was it that you were saying? that not banning Soul may have been the end of Renegade at cw.cc? it didn't click in my head until you explained it earlier, i was thinking they wanted to cut Renegade out because of the bickering and bitching on the forums and that had you just let it go it all would have subsided
my mistake; carry on

Quote:

what do you mean by "uproar"? the community going apeshit at me and blkstorm? well, we weren't to know what a terrible low the community was about to sink to.

yes!

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uh no, you've got this totally wrong. the higher-ups thought me and blkst0rm were the only things good enough in the renegade league to justify keeping it alive, precisely because we were playing it by the rules and fairness and honesty instead of just doing whatever these idiots wanted.

i understand
it just took a while

Quote:

if it is, we can refer to my earlier statement on the subject. either they couldn't marshal their thoughts to justify their views in the debate thread that the admin specifically put there for their benefit, or they didn't dare join the debate for fear of being proved wrong. in neither case am i going to do what they want.

i dare say that you are Mean

Quote:

that's feeble of you. you made so many posts and PMs saying whiskey was obviously only speaking in favour of the pointsfix because he was spoony's renadmin at the time. this was flat out untrue, and you just swallowed the bullshit the anti-pointsfix crowd were putting out at the time; that anybody who likes the pointsfix MUST have some hidden agenda. it's an odd thing to think from someone whose only admissible evidence is "here's how many people like it or don't like it". once again, the game is rigged.

if that's true then it was wrong of me and i was mistaken

Quote:

yeah, they like just saying things and expecting it to be accepted without giving anyone the platform to challenge it.

a lot of the time

Quote:

that's right. it's a very similar situation to the "nobody else hosted a clan ladder" scenario. i'm focusing on the complete lack of effort or success, you're focusing on the excuses for that lack - even going so far as to make them on other peoples' behalf.

i can't change the fact that it didn't happen, but i'm open to the idea that your reasons as to why may be incorrect

Quote:

of course you're allowed to ask, and i'm allowed to reply explaining why it's a stupid question

booooooooo

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if only i had gotten some credit for hosting a pointbugged ladder for so long, despite being the biggest opponent of the point bug.

that's true generosity, giving something expecting nothing in return

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don't look so surprised. "why are they acting like idiots?" "because they're idiots" quite simple really

more like =O
that's not a nice thing to say

Quote:

my reason was "i've put up with you ungrateful twats long enough, you treat me like shit despite all the favours i've done for you and you don't deserve any more of my effort" - this reason seemed to be unacceptable to a lot of people

cuz they loved you and didn't want to see you go, duh
even though they were mean to you
clanwars is a violent relationship, that's all

Quote:

wow, why don't you pay attention to what the person you're arguing with is saying?

i just told you that i read them and cannot remember what they were, though i believe one was the lack of a vehicle alignment fix at the time
i'm telling you what i thought at the time after having read your post
i suppose the other reasons are irrelevant because you never played him

Quote:

i pointed out the colossal flaw in simpee's argument again and again and again. neither of you acknowledged it. simpee was trying to prove two things at the same time - firstly that i sucked at the game, secondly that mesa was unfair. and his way to prove this was to play me on mesa. stop and think for a second. how can you prove one player is great and the other player sucks by arranging a match on a horribly unfair map? conversely, how can you prove mesa is unfair by pitting a great player against a terrible player?

oh yeah, he wanted to do it on Mesa, not Mesa2
see, you're helping

Quote:

there were other reasons i posted at the time, you both ignored them too - such as the fact simpee had already been proven wrong in these pointsfix debates many times already and had shown a pathetic reluctance to admitting it - therefore it wouldn't change a damn thing if he was proven wrong about this too (yet again, the game is rigged).

fair enough

Quote:

also, i vaguely remember having internet problems at the time, but never mind that.

thought you were one of those "get the job done" people
HMMMMM?!

Quote:

yes, especially those people who had a track record of profiting from unfairness.

that's not really relevant though, it seems like a way for you to justify their differing opinions not meaning anything
what if only the respectable, clean track record clanwars players had supported using the original points and the rapist genocide club had wanted the original points?

Quote:

you tell me. i don't want to assume why you didn't do that, do i?

i figure you already have, and since i don't know i asked you
i'll say lemonade because it's a tasty beverage

Quote:

no, i was inferring what i actually said, which was "we do not decide policy by polls, we never did, nobody said this poll was important, and anyway the anti-pointsfix crowd has already tried rigging these things in the past"

alright
more reasons why you don't use polls instead of a reason why this one came out a certain way, which is what i thought you were on about

Quote:

you're not backing far enough away from your original point, which was "this poll is the only evidence we need to consider"

you make me sound really stupid or something
;\

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oh dear.

see the violent relationship quote above

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firstly, a lot of your statements have been along the lines of "you should do what the majority wants". as i've said before, this would mean that one of the worst cheaters in history gets away with it, whereas the fairest and most honest player around is fucked. have fun in a league like that.
secondly, i'm not talking about the fact they didn't like me, i'm talking about the fact they supported me being banned purely because of personal dislike, with not even so much as a thought as to what justification there might be for it.

this means they would not have made good clanwars admins, based on your previous teachings

Quote:

don't say "stuck around" as if there's anything praiseworthy there... they carried on accepting my charity?

is that not what you intended for people to do when you hosted a league for them? you act as if they're in the wrong for playing there

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excuse me, but if you're capable of saying "here's what i think the rule on this matter should be" you're capable of being an admin and making that rule. and if the anti-pointsfix crowd was as enormous as you've decided that it is (though on what evidence i'm not quite sure) then you'd think that they could easily club together to outdo someone who knows as little about coding as i do.

i felt that the way renegade was scored should be what the players wanted, but i didn't think that all rules or decisions should be decided by the players
so if what you say is true i'm capable of being an admin and making that rule, but then what? it falls apart because it stops there
either way what i say previously remains true - there is no clanwars without Spoony
you're welcome to disprove that if you can

Quote:

are you kidding? it'd be more fun if i DIDN'T put myself through those debates. it's depressing how stupid most of the other participants were, depressing having to repeat myself again and again because they just weren't reading what the person they're arguing with was saying, depressing watching so many people lie through their teeth to try to get what they wanted, etc etc etc

the whole intellectual sparring thing was lost you say? bah, i say

Quote:

if something that improved the level of fairness in the league made people who'd already proven their preference for unfairness leave, this would probably have made me realise even sooner what a waste of effort the community was. that's a result, i suppose.

i don't think it was a waste of effort, and i'm sure the people who played there wouldn't say that
if they did they would be lying

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see, this is the curse of renegade debates... people are always trying to make things that aren't bad sound bad. the fact i went to great lengths to encourage debate and listened to what everyone said and replied to every post... that's good. the fact i was willing to put the question to the test is a good thing, and it doesn't become a bad thing because the other side of the debate fared so badly.

was it just a way to assure that you were correct on the issue then? so they couldn't come back later and say that?

Quote:

more fair, better for the league, etc. "do you prefer this" seems like a waste of a question to me, though i might ask "why do you prefer it"

i understand
it just seems harsh
that all comes with the business of clanwars i suppose

Quote:

that's right, it is odd that this didn't appear as a counterpoint to "you're a douche because it's not being done in this particular way"

it still seems douchey to me, on principle
but does it make the game more fair, and could it potentially better the league? sure
perhaps to do the right thing in this case you had to be a douche
maybe in the end when it all worked out you wouldn't have seemed like a douche

Quote:

when it comes to changing the rules of a league, they don't matter enough. the opinion of someone who's right is worth more than the opinion of someone who's wrong.

let me illustrate it with a hypothetical.

question: should base to base be allowed on islands with a MRLS?
someone says: yes, because nod can buy a MRLS and do the same thing
spoony: uh no, nod can't do that.
someone: stfu you should respect my opinion
spoony: you're factually wrong here
someone: STFU MY OPINION IS WORTH AS MUCH AS YOURS

no, the someone else's vote should not count as much as mine, because i'm right and he's wrong, and this is exactly what happened in the pointsfix debates.

that was awesome

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no?

you seemed surprised to me that people in clanwars were the way they were; that's why i asked

Quote:

if that was the case they'd have been grateful for pointing out how crashingly wrong they were, and they'd have been relieved to learn that the guy who they thought was such a corrupt admin was in fact very honest.

this was not their reaction at all, in case you missed it.

that's just talking about their accusations against me (which were, of course, all untrue). now let's look at my counter-accusations against them (which were all true, though they denied them). what is your theory for why they denied them? do you think they might have been equally honest in that case?

they could have been but they were not
maybe their dislike for you made it impossible
shame on you for making good guys like simpee and clearsh0t hate you!

liquidv2

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