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it's interesting you're immovably focused on this part of the statement as opposed to either of the two more important parts, 1: the anti-pointsfix crowd had already been caught rigging these polls, 2: nobody important at clanwars ever said that poll was worth a damn thing, whereas it was made clear that the debate thread was central in determining policy.

what i still can't understand is why you would do something that everyone disagreed with[/quote]
i don't know why not. if you can understand why you - for example - didn't host a pointbugged ladder for everybody who wanted one, it isn't such a big step to realising that someone else might not want to either, especially when that someone has always been the most vocal opponent of the point bug.

of course, on that basis you might think that i deserve some credit for hosting a pointbugged ladder for such a long time despite my contempt for the bug, but no. no thanks are due there, only being called a "douche" when the problem is finally fixable.

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for example the soul case, had he just been allowed to play then clanwars.cc wouldn't have been breathing down your neck about the Renegade league

you've lost me there.

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Quote: this is because you're a fucking idiot who can't or won't understand a really simple but really crucial point. you don't care whether or not your playerbase is happy you care about what you'd rather have based on what you think is right, even if that means hosting an empty league what do you think i don't understand?

the fact that you have no credibility at all in criticising the way clanwars was run, because nobody else could be bothered running a clan ladder at all.

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Quote: the longer your list is of people who want a pointsbugged ladder, the sadder it is that not a single one of them could give enough of a shit to provide one themselves. you keep calling me a douche for running the league the way i think it should go... how stupid are you? why have you never called EVERYBODY ELSE ON RENEGADE a douche for not giving enough of a shit to provide a league at all? you really are thick if this has never occurred to you, even if i hadn't carefully tried to spell it out to your dumb ass over and over and over and over again. you're rude! they're douchebags because they would rather you run the original points than the pointmod in your league?

i'd rather be rude than a bald-faced liar, liquid. why do you keep ignoring what i say and then deliberately pretending i said things i absolutely did not say? i'd respect you more if you just admitted you lost the argument instead of trying to lie your way out of it.

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Quote: i'd rather call it a fact than a law. why is everything you say fact?

and there you go again. why do you keep lying? when did i say "everything i say is a fact"? why are you lying by claiming i said or think this?

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Quote: again, this is a really sad attempt to shift the fault. the reason nobody other than me hosted a league is because nobody could give a shit about the clan community. even when they admit to not being able to care enough - as simpee said - or even when they say that they would not lower themselves to hosting something for renegade - as orca said - you seem intent on thinking that what's easily explained by apathy and selfishness is actually caused by something noble. if that's the way it actually was then i'd agree with you

i suppose i'm glad to hear you would agree with me if only you were perceptive enough to see what's right in front of you.

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i just have a very hard time believing that everyone in cw.cc was like that and i think that had that been the case you wouldn't have hosted it at all

eh? one of the main reasons i hosted the clanwars ladder is because no fucker else on renegade could be bothered.

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would it have been the end of the world had you let the clanwars players play with their pointpushing best friend and avoided the whole scenario altogether?

there you have it, ladies and gentlemen. no rebuttal necessary, the quote speaks for itself.

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i've purposely left my original statement in the quote box, so everyone can see the point i made illustrated again by your reply to it. look at the point i made, about how i just can't get you to show the slightest reaction to incredibly important things, and yet all you can focus on is counting how many people are on which side.

it's because i don't believe you when you say the only people against using the pointmod in clanwars were simpee and his named band of rapist cheaters[/quote]
oh dear, you completely changed the subject.

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Quote: whiskey was originally against the pointsfix, then changed his mind. the anti-pointsfix crowd were simply intolerant of anyone who disagreed with them (just look at the pathetic way they've continually treated me). there'd just HAVE to be some other explanation for whiskey's opinion than "he thinks this is a good thing for the league" i understand that that's why i said it could have gone either way, i didn't know for sure

translation: you blindly swallowed what a small number of cheaters and compulsive liars told you, despite the fact that at the time i was carefully pointing out the simple truth of the matter

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Quote: i certainly gave them every opportunity. if every clanwars.cc member enjoyed openly engaging in debates on the forums it would have worked more the way you'd intended it to

who gives a shit whether anybody "enjoys" debates? if you want a rule changed, explain why. if you can't, don't expect it to be changed. who cares whether you enjoy trying to explain why?

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Quote: much, much less of a douchebag than you, as i've tried over and over and over again to explain how rude! if i ran a league and everyone was telling me one thing i'd more likely than not side with them though if what you tell me is true it's further from everyone than i thought and i may be mistaken

the "if i ran a league" is the critical bit. if you gave enough of a shit about clan gaming to host a league, here's how you'd run it! well, i suppose we have to take you at your word, such as it is, because you didn't give enough of a shit about clan gaming to host a league, though you've got plenty of criticism to aim at the only person who DID host one because it wasn't exactly as you wanted it to be.

your parents must have had a hell of time

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Quote: this is just plain wrong. clanwars died when *i* stopped playing, and i stopped playing because i eventually reached the point at which the unbelievably pathetic nature of the clanwars.cc community made me not want to spend any more effort on them (putting me down to the same level as everyone else who didn't run a league for them) i think it would have been swell of you to keep doing it, despite their abuse, because it was the right thing at least something you could honestly argue was the right thing, and eventually they would have realized it and some would have it in them to thank you you would have been a Renesaint

as would anyone who could be bothered hosting a pointbugged ladder when, according to you, everyone except me and whiskey wanted one.

what a pity that not a single person on the planet could, so instead you direct your anger at the only person who hosts a league and the only person who helps him run it.

if you can't see how phenomenally stupid you are being here, i just don't know how many more times i need to repeat it.

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Quote: and the need to lie to everybody for about a week when he was under investigation, including his own clan. i'd call lying to your own clan about the worst thing you can do in the clan world, and that wasn't even the first time he'd pointpushed. yet they still loved and forgave him if it's an unforgivable sin why did they almost unanimously want him allowed back in?

because they're a bunch of idiots? that's the short answer.

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Quote: it's not strange at all, why would someone continue to spend their resources for such a cesspool of a community? that line made me laugh it doesn't seem like such a cesspool to me, lots of people enjoyed the years they spent there and the fun they had i'm sure it had low points but i don't think they would have been reason enough to close it down, based on what i've heard and seen

i'm specifically talking about a specific period in its history (the Soul episode) - and at this point, the community truly was a cesspool.

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then again IM STILL NO CW.CC ADMIN SO IDK

you're almost on to something here. you don't run a clanwars league for these people so you don't know? indeed. so you know what it's like to not host a league for a bunch of idiots... so you ought to understand what might drive someone else to decide not to as well.

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Quote: that thing i kept telling you about some maps being blatantly unfair, so unfair that certain players would leave if they got the bad side. aren't there still some maps like that with the pointmod on? like, say, mesa

not with mesa2... guess who solved that problem?

again?

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Quote: then these exact same people later turn up crying about how they think mesa is unfair with the pointsfix, it's enough to make a cat laugh why wouldn't you just play simpee then and shut him up, your cat would have been laffin

why didn't you read my detailed and repeated explanations of why i wouldn't play him at the time?

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Quote: apology accepted. you realise that everything you just said could be said about the soul episode? sure, but had you just said Ok you guys are stupid, but at least you've accepted it so we're allowing this pointpushing baby-rapist scumbag Soul to play

again, i'll just leave this quote to stand on its own, it says a lot more than you meant it to

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no they couldn't post why it would increase fairness, but they did try anyways

you seem reluctant to finish your sentence. the last words that belong on the end are "but they were wrong"

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had the entire league wanted it left on you wouldn't have because they can't prove it increases fairness what do you lose by letting them play that way? it makes them happy

it might be the same thing you thought you would lose by hosting a pointbugged clan ladder for them?

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you're right and everyone is happy at the same time i think that's what i would have done, but history has shown that that would have made me a bad cw.cc admin

the fact you don't give enough of a shit about the clan world to host a league at all is enough to demonstrate you wouldn't be a good admin, we don't need much more evidence than that. we don't even need to notice your contempt for the only person who actually did and the renadmin at the time, though that helps form the picture too.

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Quote: i'm glad that after mentioning these sort of tactics again and again and again, you've finally managed to acknowledge it. i don't agree; just because some polls in the history of cw.cc were rigged doesn't mean they were all rigged

nobody said they were, though you lied and tried to make it sound like i did.

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Quote: and yet even with your dumbass poll thread, you can add up the Yes and the Don't Mind Either Way votes to outnumber the Nos. but like i said, my argument never relied on counting the number of people who agreed with me; it's not so weak as yours. i wasn't aware of the overall indifference that or i just forgot or neglected to remember it

or you were just overly focused on the small group of cheaters and pointpushers

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Quote: yes, it does. the one and only person from clanwars.cc who actually did do what i kept suggesting was whiskey, and he got no end of contempt for doing so. what does that have to do with you saying no one gave a shit about clanwars.cc

i can't tell if that's a serious question or not

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Quote: ...that they like playing clanwars? that doesn't demonstrate a generous nature. who said anything about generous? if they didn't give a shit they wouldn't post or ask things or participate at all

is there anything praiseworthy here?

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Quote: i know nothing about coding at all, never stopped me. i've always found there to be two kinds of people in this world, people who get the fucking job done whatever the obstacles, and people who come back to you with excuses for why they didn't do it. what about the people that die trying

never mind them, we're talking about the enormous number of people who never tried at all, for whom you're very quick to make excuses.

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Quote: i might add that i offered several times to sell people a league and help them set it up. there is no clanwars without spoony if you haven't noticed people seem to want you around, even if they disagree with you

would that explain the general enthusiasm when i was suspended because a cheater lied his way into my clan?

still, carry on making excuses for these people if you like. the fact remains that none of them came up with the goods, and you attacked the only person who did.

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Quote: if they don't even dare say so in the debate thread that's specifically there for the purpose, i don't think i can persuade myself to do what they want. pfft, have a heart

having a debate thread at all is more generous than they have a reason to expect; i could just say "here's spoony's decision the madder, live with it" and lock the thread, as i was advised by quite a few people to do instead of actually talking to these idiots.

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Quote: you're right about one thing, you're not me. you know fuck all about how to run a ladder, and you've never shown that you care enough about the clan community to put the effort into trying. yes, if nobody can explain why X is better than Y for a rule, nor can anybody refute my detailed assertions on why Y is better than X, we're going with Y and if this makes cheaters and compulsive liars angry, so much the better. if the league becoming more fair has the added effect of angering people who prefer the game not to be fair, this is a bonus rather than a drawback. if that reduced the league to nothing would it be worth it in your eyes?

i've been asked the same question before, but in a more threatening tone.

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Quote: again, anyone can see i did not say that. i suppose it's easier for you to pretend i said something i never said, than to face your own stupidity in placing all your faith in a poll by and for people who'd already proven their willingness to rig them. erm Quote: i'm glad that after mentioning these sort of tactics again and again and again, you've finally managed to acknowledge it. i feel like your statements contradict each other

no? that was the first time you seemed to acknowledge the fact that the anti-pointsfix crowd at clanwars had been caught rigging polls like that before, despite the innumerable times i kept pointing it out to you and you obviously didn't care.

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Quote: my position, by contrast, is very simple and has always been consistent: those polls are worth jack shit to me and always were. debate is what matters. if people lose the debate then i'm not likely to do what they say; and if people are too scared to participate in the debate for fear of losing (my god, how sad is that) then i'm even less likely to do what they say. a lot of people don't enjoy debating or are no good at it because they can't win you over with essays because they're incapable of writing them their opinions mean jack shit to you seems kind of shitty to me

i suspect this is wilful dishonesty on your part rather than simple stupidity. i didn't say you have to crafted a beautifully worded essay, i just said you had to actually be right.

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Quote: you're better than this... deal with what i actually say, don't lower yourself into pretending i said things i obviously did not say. trying to say and actually saying are two different things from what i gather by your statements you're claiming that they are douchebags because they'd like their preferred settings used in clanwars over your proposed settings but won't actually go out and make their own league to do it

this one seems more like simple stupidity than wilful dishonesty. i can only advise you to actually read and understand what i say before replying to it.

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Quote: and yet i'd be far less of a douchebag than everyone who wanted a pointbugged ladder and couldn't be bothered hosting one, and there's nothing you can say that'll change that. do yourself a favour, just admit you've lost this debate. there is no overcoming that argument. i'm just trying to better understand you, call it what you want i don't agree with that argument

i know you don't, because it logically makes you much more of a douche than i could ever be, and given the sheer number of times you've called me a douche for this reason it would make you the most colossal douche in the world.

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Quote: then what a pity that in all the overwhelming majority that supposedly wanted the point bug, not a single one could give enough of a shit to make that happen. they couldn't even pull together and do it. meanwhile the people who actually DID deliver the goods - me and whiskey - have gotten nothing but contempt for doing so. that's untrue from some people sure, but not all people

from you and from the people you were so enthusiastically defending, it was absolutely true.

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you believe that someone asking you to change what you're doing is a douchebag move if they're not willing to do it themselves?

no. but your standards for meeting the label "douche" are much lower than mine; they apply to someone who's going to great lengths to do you a favour if that favour isn't exactly the way you'd like it.

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Quote: if you still haven't figured out by now that i couldn't give a shit which side of the argument majority is on, i don't think you ever will back to the soul case, if it's everyone vs. you what do you lose by going with everyone i'm actually interested in your thinking on that

i see you've already forgotten about the whole "CLAN WARS would have shut the league down" bit, maybe because - as i said several times before - it's not something you are at all bothered by.
at one point shortbus (global admin) said that blkst0rm and i were the only good things about the renegade community (he was specifically talking about the clanwars section, before anybody here objects), precisely because we were actually going by rules and fairness and honesty instead of caving in to a bunch of idiots.

that's one thing we could have lost - the entire league.
aside from that, what a great precedent to set. "here's a situation where you can get away with pointpushing and photoshopping screenshots for fake wins, guys". tell me, do you think that would lead to more cheating or less? but maybe you don't care about rules being applied fairly, maybe you think punishments should not be decided by what your offence was but how many people like you instead. well, i don't give a shit about pleasing people, i'd rather be honest. so under your system, me - maybe the fairest and most honest player you could find - would come off much worse than someone with such a colourful history of cheating and pointpushing and lying to everyone about it (the admins, his opponents, his own clan).
i suppose if you could give enough of a shit to actually run a clan league, this is what it might look like.

what could i lose? dignity, for one thing. ever heard of it? where there is a question of cheating or fairplay or honesty, you will always find me on the right side. there are quite a lot of people in the renegade community for whom this can't be said.

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Quote: oh dear, you're still under the impression that it was simpee and clearshot not playing any more than killed the league, as opposed to me not playing any more. if the events of the time when they were banned didn't convince you of the reality, how about when a new admin tried to revitalise the league recently with simpee and clearshot unbanned? i didn't play, despite being asked to all the time... and the league didn't fire up. the admin even gave people votes and choices on whether to use the point bug or not, and the league didn't fire up. ouch. did they play either? probably not

nothing stopped them. they had a pretty good deal - a clanwars league with an admin other than spoony, and the chance to have votes and choices on whether to play with the point bug or not. if you believe everything simpee and clearshot ever said about clanwars, you would think they would have leapt at the chance. but maybe, like me, you don't believe everything simpee and clearshot say.

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just because people don't post doesn't mean they don't have an opinion on something if everyone is of the same opinion on something i don't get what you gain by dismissing all of them because you disagree with it what are you left with then?

"dismissing all of them because you disagree with it" is a dishonest way to phrase it. it's not as bad as "didn't listen to them", which was an outright lie you should be ashamed of yourself for saying as often as you did, but it's still dishonest. "dismissing them because you disagreed with them", no. i read everything they said and replied to them all. shame they were all WRONG. perhaps you don't like to think that anybody's opinion could actually be WRONG, liquid.

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Quote: what i said about him was true. poor zell i don't remember what it was but it seemed less bad than the rest

yes, it was. not everyone is as bad as robo or simpee.

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Quote: you're dangerously close to a good point there i think you're ignoring the point i made about expecting everyone to be respectable and mature in such a competitive environment that's ok though

i don't remember saying i EXPECTED anyone from clanwars to behave maturely?

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Quote: no, clear and simpee on the jelly forum. it doesn't seem like that serious of an assertion if you can easily deflect it

it was obvious they didn't think i'd have such an easy time proving they were lying.