Renegade Public Forums
C&C: Renegade --> Dying since 2003™, resurrected in 2024!
Home » General Discussions » Heated Discussions and Debates » Liquid trying to understand British logic - cleared  () 1 Vote
Re: BHS Ladder [message #438612 is a reply to message #438593] Sat, 30 October 2010 05:07 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Spoony is currently offline  Spoony
Messages: 3915
Registered: January 2006
Karma:
General (3 Stars)
Tactics & Strategies Moderator
liquidv2 wrote on Sat, 30 October 2010 00:00

Quote:

a poll started by a player, without any admin endorsement. decisions at clanwars have never been determined by polls, and anonymous ones are obviously open to rigging... which the anti-pointsfix crowd had already been caught doing.

even if the rape mob comprised of evil scapegoats simpee and clearsh0t had rigged that poll and voted 20 times each it wouldn't help the fact that people weren't voting for using the pointmod

it's interesting you're immovably focused on this part of the statement as opposed to either of the two more important parts, 1: the anti-pointsfix crowd had already been caught rigging these polls, 2: nobody important at clanwars ever said that poll was worth a damn thing, whereas it was made clear that the debate thread was central in determining policy.

Quote:

Quote:

but even if every single player in the league besides me was adamantly anti-pointsfix, i'd still be right and you'd still be wrong here

i don't understand why someone would want something that upsets everyone else
that seems douchey to me; that's all i'm saying

this is because you're a fucking idiot who can't or won't understand a really simple but really crucial point.

the longer your list is of people who want a pointsbugged ladder, the sadder it is that not a single one of them could give enough of a shit to provide one themselves. you keep calling me a douche for running the league the way i think it should go... how stupid are you? why have you never called EVERYBODY ELSE ON RENEGADE a douche for not giving enough of a shit to provide a league at all? you really are thick if this has never occurred to you, even if i hadn't carefully tried to spell it out to your dumb ass over and over and over and over again.

Quote:

Quote:

then there's something seriously wrong with said eyes, since i certainly told them enough times that there was absolutely nothing stopping any of them hosting their own league.

so what? because you say it makes it law?

i'd rather call it a fact than a law.

Quote:

no one wanted to try and outdo you
people have faith in what you do, but they didn't agree with changing the way renegade is scored after everyone had played with it that way for years

again, this is a really sad attempt to shift the fault. the reason nobody other than me hosted a league is because nobody could give a shit about the clan community. even when they admit to not being able to care enough - as simpee said - or even when they say that they would not lower themselves to hosting something for renegade - as orca said - you seem intent on thinking that what's easily explained by apathy and selfishness is actually caused by something noble.

Quote:

Quote:

yes, like they did when blkst0rm and i banned soul for pointpushing with photoshopped screenshots. they were so angry at that that they - again - tried to sabotage the league (by trying to get people banned on purpose). this is the kind of people we're talking about here, the "playerbase" (cheaters) you want me to "listen to" (obey)

who is they? you make it sound like the majority of clanwars.cc went against you and blkst0rm and you're calling them cheaters
you're portraying cw.cc as a bunch of sabotaging cheaters

i know you're probably having a hard time grasping the unbelievably pathetic low to which the clanwars.cc community sunk during the Soul episode, and i understand that. still, everything i've said about it is true. it was me and blkst0rm vs the entire clanwars community on an issue, we were dead right and they were dead wrong. this is a much sharper divide than the pointsfix poll you're talking about. and they were so catastrophically wrong that if they'd been "listened to" (obeyed), there's a very real chance the entire league would have been shut down.
and, as i've said, because they weren't obeyed they actively tried to sabotage the league by using an exploit to get as many people banned as possible. getting the entire league banned seemed preferable to them than allowing spoony and blkst0rm to ban someone who was pointpushing and photoshopping screenshots. remember this when you talk about how it's spoony vs everyone else at clanwars, cos whenever this happens i have a history of being right and they have a history of being crashingly wrong.

Quote:

Quote:

you seemed very sure at the time. i kept pointing out that the entirety of the people you wanted me to "listen to" were cheaters, pointpushers etc who had a long habit of not "listening" to the, y'know, rules and stuff. i kept pointing out that the "majority" of clanwars have a demonstrable track record of extraordinary stupidity. again, no reaction. i said the last time it was spoony vs the entire clanwars community on an issue, the clanwars community was so catastrophically wrong that if they'd been listened to, it probably would've resulted in the entire shutdown of the league. EVEN THAT couldn't provoke the slightest reaction from you. no, the only thing on your mind was "listen to the playerbase" (obey the cheaters)

i didn't see anyone supporting you
it looked like spoony vs. the world
you labeled the world as cheaters and baby seal killers, but what else was there? you had whiskey on your side, but people felt he was only on your side because he was biased as your right hand man
i didn't get the chance to go from person to person with every cw.cc member and interview them and get their thoughts on the issue; perhaps i should have

i've purposely left my original statement in the quote box, so everyone can see the point i made illustrated again by your reply to it. look at the point i made, about how i just can't get you to show the slightest reaction to incredibly important things, and yet all you can focus on is counting how many people are on which side.

still, i'll answer your statements
Quote:

i didn't see anyone supporting you
it looked like spoony vs. the world

then perhaps you can explain the Yes and Don't Care votes to the poll, given the fact that added together they outnumbered the No votes (and also given the fact that I didn't waste my time voting at all). we're being very generous and assuming that the anti-pointsfix crowd DIDN'T rig that poll, which would make a change. the result would be the majority either liking it or not minding it.

of course, all that would assume that i could give a shit about those anonymous polls, and i think i've made it clear by now that i don't, but if it's the only thing that matters to you then how embarrassing for you that it's bullshit.

Quote:

you had whiskey on your side, but people felt he was only on your side because he was biased as your right hand man

i would think it sad you fell for that lie, but you fell for all the others.

whiskey was originally against the pointsfix, then changed his mind. the anti-pointsfix crowd were simply intolerant of anyone who disagreed with them (just look at the pathetic way they've continually treated me). there'd just HAVE to be some other explanation for whiskey's opinion than "he thinks this is a good thing for the league"

Quote:

i didn't get the chance to go from person to person with every cw.cc member and interview them and get their thoughts on the issue; perhaps i should have

i certainly gave them every opportunity.

Quote:

Quote:

would you think me less of a "douche" if i did?

sure; if it's your league and people change it into something you don't want without your permission you should do something about it
you don't have to listen to the majority of your league and use their preferred point system, but that just may make you a douchebag

much, much less of a douchebag than you, as i've tried over and over and over again to explain

Quote:

Quote:

don't be stupid. i know you're probably a bit embarrassed at who you were so enthusiastically supporting, but don't be stupid.

they aren't bad people, it's a shame you'll never get to know them
i don't approve of underhanded tactics and what you accuse them of doing, but i don't hate them for it

consider how many times you've called me a douche for running the league in the best way i can, and then look at your own wheedling excuses for why you haven't said anything bad about some extraordinarily fucked up behaviour from the people you've been defending.

Quote:

not all of clanwars.cc rigged polls and did similar things like that, but am i an idiot for supporting them as well?

yes, since at no point from the beginning of the episode until now has it been demonstrated that they even existed

Quote:

Quote:

there's no need to make excuses for these people. you can read their own excuses. you may have noticed me directly asking people like orca and simpee why they don't host a pointbugged ladder since they're the ones who think there should be one. simpee said he couldn't be bothered (the honesty came as quite a surprise), orca said he would not lower himself to putting any money or time into running anything for renegade.

it might be more than simpee knows or is capable of

you surely realise that there was a point in time at which i went from not being a clanwars admin to being a clanwars admin, and therefore a point in time when i was a clanwars admin who had zero practical experience.

Quote:

and orca is a criminal from the island of australia
all of the clanwars.cc players that would have enjoyed an original points ladder probably aren't all like orca; you assume the worst in people

no assumptions are necessary, you can just look at the facts. i attempted to recruit for renadmins many times, and the overwhelming majority of the community either didn't apply or did apply and turned out not be diligent enough to spend the very small amount of time it takes to do the AR's. i can count on one hand the number of people from the clanwars community who turned out to be good admins willing to put the effort in. i'm also more aware than most of the extraordinarily pathetic way the clanwars.cc community treats the admins; most of your moderators would quit within a week or so.

Quote:

Quote:

the entire community was firmly on the side of the guy who pointpushed with photoshopped screenshots and lied to everyone for about a week to try to get away with it (including his own clan, probably the worst thing you can do in the clan world). everyone was hailing him as a hero and flaming the shit out of me for banning him. thanks to how unbelievably low the community had sunk, there was an imminent danger of the renegade league being shut down altogether by the site owners purely because of the embarrassment the renegade portion of the site was causing. i can't fault CLAN WARS for looking at the clanwars renegade forums at the time and wondering why he was spending so much as a cent on such an unbelievably fucked up community.

clanwars.cc came to a screeching halt after you banned simpee and clear
was it justified in your eyes? i'm almost certain of that
does the majority of cw.cc agree with it? who knows, probably not
did that lead to the league going dead? yes

this is just plain wrong. clanwars died when *i* stopped playing, and i stopped playing because i eventually reached the point at which the unbelievably pathetic nature of the clanwars.cc community made me not want to spend any more effort on them (putting me down to the same level as everyone else who didn't run a league for them)

Quote:

i don't know what happened after soul was not allowed to play, but people were biased in that case because he obviously cared a lot about clanwars
a little bit too much, if he felt the need to pointpush in order to get ahead

and the need to lie to everybody for about a week when he was under investigation, including his own clan. i'd call lying to your own clan about the worst thing you can do in the clan world, and that wasn't even the first time he'd pointpushed.

Quote:

i find it hard to believe that clanwars was going to cut renegade off of the site due to that, but i'll take your word on it
that's quite strange

it's not strange at all, why would someone continue to spend their resources for such a cesspool of a community?

Quote:

Quote:

though several rules had to be made to deal with the problems the bug caused...

harv blocking, oh god not that
what else?

that thing i kept telling you about some maps being blatantly unfair, so unfair that certain players would leave if they got the bad side.

then these exact same people later turn up crying about how they thing mesa is unfair with the pointsfix, it's enough to make a cat laugh

Quote:

Quote:

that doesn't have quite the same kick, though, does it? doesn't actually sound as if i've done anything wrong if you put it that way, does it? so that's no good.

you went against what your players wanted
you neglected to side with them
you dismissed their wishes and went with what you wanted
it all sounds similar
once again i'm sorry, my mistake

apology accepted. you realise that everything you just said could be said about the soul episode?

Quote:

hey, i recall you saying this several dozen times
a lot of people don't enjoy debating on forums, and i'm sure you're not one of those people
it seems shitty to the people that may have wanted to use the original points but didn't feel like addressing it because you would have picked their posts apart and made them feel stupid

let's be clear that in being so encouraging of debate on the subject i was doing the community yet another favour they didn't deserve. the fact that they either couldn't say why their point bug would be better for the league's fairness than the original renegade points system, or that they were too scared of losing an argument if they had said so (jesus, how pathetic is that) is all on them. it's not a criticism to say that i was so diligent in reading everything everybody said about the issue and responding to every single post; you can make it sound bad but it isn't.

Quote:

Quote:

no, i said that what he said was stupid, because it was. he said it made sense for ramjets to get bucketloads of points off tanks because they did do damage after all, albeit a very very small amount of damage.

i think his point was that havocs had a way to pay for themselves or earn their keep since they were the 1000 character

no, it wasn't. i kept saying that it was bollock-brainedly stupid to get points when you're doing fuck all damage; he said actually yes havocs do do damage, just not very much, and that explains why they get such massive points.

Quote:

Quote:

you're assuming that all the No votes were different people, are you? that's generous of you, given the fact the anti-pointsfix crowd had already established the practice of rigging polls and lying about the results.

so because certain people rigged polls in the past this one without a doubt most certainly must have been rigged?

i'm glad that after mentioning these sort of tactics again and again and again, you've finally managed to acknowledge it.

still, i wouldn't say that. you're the one putting all your faith in that poll thread; i thought i'd made it clear by now that i couldn't give a shit about it.

[quote]that would explain why there were more votes in favor of not using the pointmod but it doesn't explain the lack of support for using the pointmod[/color]
and yet even with your dumbass poll thread, you can add up the Yes and the Don't Mind Either Way votes to outnumber the Nos. but like i said, my argument never relied on counting the number of people who agreed with me; it's not so weak as yours.

Quote:

just because someone doesn't up and leave your community and start their own or make a ladder for original point games doesn't mean they don't give a shit about the community

yes, it does. the one and only person from clanwars.cc who actually did do what i kept suggesting was whiskey, and he got no end of contempt for doing so.

Quote:

the fact that they're there at all should say something

...that they like playing clanwars? that doesn't demonstrate a generous nature.

Quote:

not everyone has it in them to go off and make their own ladder or league
most people wouldn't even know how either

i know nothing about coding at all, never stopped me. i've always found there to be two kinds of people in this world, people who get the fucking job done whatever the obstacles, and people who come back to you with excuses for why they didn't do it.

i might add that i offered several times to sell people a league and help them set it up.

Quote:

just because people didn't post doesn't mean they wouldn't have preferred using the original points to the pointmod in clanwars

if they don't even dare say so in the debate thread that's specifically there for the purpose, i don't think i can persuade myself to do what they want.

Quote:

just because they (the majority of cw.cc at that time) could not out-debate you on why they liked the original points over the pointmod and why it should be used doesn't mean you can't use it, especially if it makes them happy
would it be a bad thing if your playerbase was happy with what you were doing? i don't think so but i'm not Spoony

you're right about one thing, you're not me. you know fuck all about how to run a ladder, and you've never shown that you care enough about the clan community to put the effort into trying. yes, if nobody can explain why X is better than Y for a rule, nor can anybody refute my detailed assertions on why Y is better than X, we're going with Y and if this makes cheaters and compulsive liars angry, so much the better. if the league becoming more fair has the added effect of angering people who prefer the game not to be fair, this is a bonus rather than a drawback.

Quote:

Quote:

i suppose you're still assuming this vote of yours wasn't rigged like the previous ones were

some polls in the history of cw.cc were rigged - this means that all of them were rigged
correct?

again, anyone can see i did not say that. i suppose it's easier for you to pretend i said something i never said, than to face your own stupidity in placing all your faith in a poll by and for people who'd already proven their willingness to rig them.

my position, by contrast, is very simple and has always been consistent: those polls are worth jack shit to me and always were. debate is what matters. if people lose the debate then i'm not likely to do what they say; and if people are too scared to participate in the debate for fear of losing (my god, how sad is that) then i'm even less likely to do what they say.

Quote:

they're douchebags because they don't try to do what you're doing? they disagree with the lack of an original renegade points ladder but are douchebags because they don't host their own? not everyone knows how to go about doing such a thing or is capable of it
i myself have no idea what goes into it

been over this

Quote:

you're trying to say that they're douchebags for asking you to change what you're doing to cater to them

you're better than this... deal with what i actually say, don't lower yourself into pretending i said things i obviously did not say.

Quote:

i'm saying you're a douchebag when literally everyone was asking you and you still said no

and yet i'd be far less of a douchebag than everyone who wanted a pointbugged ladder and couldn't be bothered hosting one, and there's nothing you can say that'll change that. do yourself a favour, just admit you've lost this debate. there is no overcoming that argument.

Quote:

had someone else done it and it worked it would have been you and whiskey left there because you two wanted the pointmod

then what a pity that in all the overwhelming majority that supposedly wanted the point bug, not a single one could give enough of a shit to make that happen. they couldn't even pull together and do it. meanwhile the people who actually DID deliver the goods - me and whiskey - have gotten nothing but contempt for doing so.

Quote:

Quote:

i've never thought my case here was sufficiently weak that i needed to say i had "majority" on my side, never mind the "majority" of a community as generally dipshitted as clanwars.cc. if you're going to construct a strawman you could at least come up with something i might actually waste my time saying.

i'm guessing as to what you were trying to hint at earlier
you never actually said you had the majority on your side, but you were suggesting that the original-points fans were not the majority
it can only go one way, either one side is or isn't the majority

if you still haven't figured out by now that i couldn't give a shit which side of the argument majority is on, i don't think you ever will

Quote:

if it were you vs. literally everyone in cw.cc on the issue i think it makes you a douchebag to not do what they would prefer

no, it doesn't. i'm doing them a favour by hosting them a league at all; they have no reason to expect to be run the way they like.

Quote:

even if they're all slobbering idiots and have no idea what they're talking about

this sentence is two words too long.

Quote:

that or you can tell them to go make their own league, and in the offchance they did yours would sit empty
as it is currently
Free simpee and clearsh0t!!111

oh dear, you're still under the impression that it was simpee and clearshot not playing any more than killed the league, as opposed to me not playing any more. if the events of the time when they were banned didn't convince you of the reality, how about when a new admin tried to revitalise the league recently with simpee and clearshot unbanned? i didn't play, despite being asked to all the time... and the league didn't fire up. the admin even gave people votes and choices on whether to use the point bug or not, and the league didn't fire up.

ouch.

Quote:

you've decided that because people didn't speak up that they didn't support it

what a dumb thing to say

Quote:

did people speak in defense of the pointmod?

nobody needed to, i was doing a perfectly good job winning the argument despite it being 1v7 or whatever.

Quote:

the people that spoke up against it were people you condemned as murderers and rapists

i know you don't want to admit the simple fact that everyone who did speak up against it in the thread were cheaters and pointpushers and rulebreakers and compulsive liars, but it would be better if you just faced that simple fact.

Quote:

and why did you crap on zell, he's a good guy

what i said about him was true.

Quote:

Quote:

all i wanted was for the league to run smoothly with the players respecting the rules and the admins, so i guess we don't often get what we want. the difference between the two is if any of the anti-pointsfix crowd could give enough of a shit about the community to set up their own ladder, their problem would be solved.

you may be expecting too much in an environment that competitive
but hey, what do i know, i'm no clanwars admin or clanwars player
perhaps them having their own original points ladder would have solved that problem, but i can see it causing more

Quote:

but hey, what do i know, i'm no clanwars admin

you're dangerously close to a good point there

Quote:

Quote:

it would be quite serious if it was true, wouldn't it? therefore it's serious when someone seriously asserts it's true, and therefore we shouldn't deal lightly with someone who - in all seriousness - lies through his teeth to make the assertion, with the express purpose of doing what damage he could to (in this hypothetical) the jelly community.

sure
i still don't get it though; what's this the equivalent of? you allowing pointpushing or cheating?

no, clear and simpee on the jelly forum.

Unleash the Renerageâ„¢

Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
- noun
1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful

[Updated on: Sat, 30 October 2010 05:12]

Report message to a moderator

[Message index]
 
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Previous Topic: how many renegade players have died in real life?
Next Topic: Who is the best Renegade player(s) nowadays?
Goto Forum:
  

[ Syndicate this forum (XML) ] [ RSS ] [ PDF ]

Current Time: Mon Feb 17 02:57:06 MST 2025

Total time taken to generate the page: 0.02178 seconds
.:: Contact :: Home ::.

Powered by: FUDforum 420.69.
Copyright ©2001-2023 FUDforum Bulletin Board Software