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Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality [message #429977 is a reply to message #428821] Thu, 03 June 2010 14:06 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Starbuzzz
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Registered: June 2008
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Altzan wrote on Thu, 20 May 2010 01:14

No, it isn't. But declaring yourself an athiest doesn't banish every belief you have. You just have different beliefs... you change them. Surely you can understand that the term "belief" isn't tied to religion alone?


Religious belief is completely different.

I would like to know what "beliefs" you think I have now. And how it is even remotely comparable to "religious beliefs."

Religious people always tend to think atheism is another belief system just to try to bring it down to their level to show it is equal to their lowly dogmas. The fact that you think "not brainwashing a kid with religion itself is brainwashing" tells a lot about you.

Altzan wrote on Thu, 20 May 2010 01:14

Starbuzzz wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 15:06

Sorry to be so harsh but despite your belief system and "supernatural protection," we both have about the same chance of losing our lives this week.
My sister's plane (she is a flight attendant) has the same chances of crashing like any other plane despite her prayers before every flight.
That's life...it sucks. A lot. There's absolutely no evidence of anyone running this show. We just have to make sure to not be in thr wrong place at the wrong time and hope nothing goes wrong. Though you certainly have the right to believe in whatever you want if it's comforting to you and makes you feel at ease. Though I will point out why it doesn't make sense if you asked me.


I wish I knew what made you think I believed I was under divine protection.
Other than afterlife issues.


Is the only thing that caught your attention there? Considering you are coming from an absolute minority denomination that rejects such dogma, I am not too surprised.

The most important christian claim: that god is omnipresent watching your every move and shifting through your thoughts, punishing you (or "testing" you if you will), hearing prayers, answering them, and providing protection from danger would be too easy to observe or atleast discern but as I described above, there is no evidence, not a bit, of such a system existing.

If you were conveying your denomination's stance, I would have to say it is one of the biggest daring denominational revisionist frauds I have ever heard in my life and in no way can it be representative of the entire religion.

Altzan wrote on Thu, 20 May 2010 01:14

I wasn't aware they needed to be compared.
One being worse than the other hardly exuses the lesser.


They need not be compared? We were talking about how atheism, unlike christianity, doesn't threaten anyone with punishment for disagreeing with it. You responded to that with a "but they cause us grief and call as stupid" and now you are asking to not compare the two?

Here's what happened:

Spoony: do atheists tell you that you will be punished in a roasting fire if you disagree with them?
Altzan: They don't threaten us with physical punishment! But they make us feel bad and call us "stupid"
Starbuzzz: Yeah, and that's as bad as roasting in a fire for eternity eh duuude?
Altzan: STOP comparing the two! Just cuz hell is worse doesn't mean calling me stupid and making me feel bad should be allowed!

You did restate this threat again by saying:

Altzan

"Let's hope that punishment truly doesn't exist"


Perhaps you should just concede the obvious; that atheism doesn't threaten anyone with painful eternal punishment for disagreeing with it.

And you said this to Spoony:

Altzan wrote on Thu, 20 May 2010 01:14

Just look at the political world, and how sayings like this can ruin people's reputations. Pathetic manipulation.


Nowhere is this comparable to what the church did to intelligent folks when it was in power hundereds of years ago.

And this hardly equals burning in hell and harldy affects you personally with pain and suffering for eternity.

Altzan wrote on Thu, 20 May 2010 01:14

Starbuzzz wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 15:06

Altzan wrote on Wed, 17 March 2010 22:22

Would I fight against a governemtal decree legally allowing something I consider a sin? Yes, because not doing so would be allowing it, thus being an accomplice to said sin.

What a bullshit excuse to inflitrate into the political process.

I hardly see how "voicing what you believe" compares to "infiltrating the political process".


true but first you said "fighting against a govermental decree legally allowing something you consider to be a sin" which seems like a obvious intrusion into the political system to have the laws influenced to favour your side.

This is actually one of the reasons I dislike certain forms of democracy. It's not without its flaws.

Altzan wrote on Thu, 20 May 2010 01:14

"What, you think this means not to defend yourself from physical attack?"


Considering this question has been a source of in-fighting among christians for centuries, there isn't an absolute answer (thanks to the bible being so contradictory). So based on your question, it's obvious you were brought up on the pro-defense side that encourages the use of violent force for self-defense while I was brought up to be non-violent and pacifist towards others. While both sides have specific verses to back up their story; it comes down down to the time-honoured christian tradition of nitpicking and choosing what they feel comfortable with and we can thank the bible for giving us such a sound direction. [sarcasm]

Altzan wrote on Thu, 20 May 2010 01:14

The whole denomination thing is an easy way to reference different beliefs among groups, which, as you cannot deny, is very important. Hardly pathetic.


As someone who grew up as a "christian" and not as a "baptist" or "catholic" or "methodist" etc etc, I don't see how denominational differences are important; they are at the most superficial really. In America, even if you are a "christian" the question that is automatically asked you is "which denomination are you associated with" like as if that matters.

All christians, despite denominations, believe in the doctrine of creation as in genesis (some differ with the days vs eras in creation), the old testament stories are considered factual, all accept christ as saviour, his teachings and that of his disciples (albeit with some nitpicking), have some view on what is going to happen in the "end times" (either a second coming or rapture), and believe in a heaven and a hell.

The minor denominational differences are hardly important (just a mere sampling of the differences in opinion) in relation to the christian religion as a whole because each denomination is critical of the other and consider themselves to be right. They are in essence the same. You see why I think denominational differences are pathetic? Perhaps "pathetic" is a strong/wrong word to use..."irrelavent" and "pointless" is more apropriate.

Anyone else see how ridiculous denominations are? Despite all their inhibitions, doctrinal differences, fingerpointing and in-fighting, they all worship the same god, accept the same saviour, and are either going to the same hell or the same heaven. I don't know if I should laugh here or not.

I am not holding you personally accountable and never did (that would be stupid) but the crime done against me (encroaching on my intellectual freedom) were all because of YOUR religion. I am holding your religion accountable. Somehow in this thread, you elected yourself to represent the entire religion and play cover for it while hiding behind your denomination. That didn't work very well.

After the 9/11 attacks, did you as an American really give a shit as to whether the terrorists were Shia or Sunni? You would be lying through your teeth if you said yes. So why is it that when I have a complaint about an outrageous atrocity commited against me in the name of your god and your religion that you felt the need to use the denominational card to cover yourself?

So there you go...I couldn't have put this in simpler terms. btw, Spoony got the bullseye on denominations when he said this on page 1:

Spoony wrote on Thu, 18 March 2010 02:43


I am perfectly happy to recognise the differences between the innumerable flavours of Christianity, so long as they don't deny the similarities (which tend to outnumber the differences)


And that's my point as well.

So anyway, the fact remains that a young adult atheist was forced to go to church against his will by christian parents due to religion (christianity in this case) never respecting an individual's intellectual freedom. Maybe when you are dragged to a mosque against your will, you too will feel the pain of absolute mental rape (which you have the sheer bloody luxury of not having experienced and I hope you never do) and this debate will stop being a "humorous" source of "cheap entertainment" to you. At that time, I would have rather traded their mind-rape for a couple lashes instead.

Altzan wrote on Thu, 20 May 2010 01:14

It had to do with his ridiculous statement about how denominations don't seperate beliefs, and how I should be held against the beliefs of every person who calls himself a Christian.


From the very beginning of this debate I have been saying how religious people don't understand intellectual freedom i.e, I can think whatever I want and come to my own conclusion as to who we are. My example was that of my parents who said "you have to believe, there is no other choice for you." What made them say that? Their religion...not their denomination or their church but their religion. Would they NOT have said the same thing (or something along the same lines) if they were in another denomination? You bet!

Do you get it now?

Instead, you clearly misunderstood every word of it thinking I am blaming you on some silly belief differences, accused me of changing the subject, and you had to bring in denominations and how your denomination doesn't believe this or that and you came up with so many "don't blame me!" statements, and you had to bring in the idiotic example of abortion clinic bombing while that wasn't my point.

And you topped it off with an absurd example of atheists going on a killing spree and showed everyone how you completely misunderstand what atheism really is.

Altzan wrote on Thu, 20 May 2010 01:14

Christian or not, what are, or were, your thoughts on the subject, if I may ask?


Sure, but I don't know what you are asking me. Is it about the lack of musical instruments? If it is, I was a bit surprised at first that they reject the use of instruments considering the majority of christians favour their use and cite the story of David on the harps. But eitherway, they sung very well and had an impressive voice.

I am left curious as to why a denomination would disregard the first half of the bible and base its doctrine strictly on the second half...so strict of an intrepretation infact [please forgive the use of this word but "anal" seems appropriate here] that it went down to affecting their use of musical instruments in worship services.

Altzan wrote on Thu, 20 May 2010 01:14

A description of religion's origins and evolutions hardly explains why you think the idea is made up.


I wonder how you can honestly say this and actually mean it when you outright claim that a thousand other religions are plain wrong just because you think so. Tell me about the other religions and how they are not made up, if you will.

Altzan wrote on Thu, 20 May 2010 01:14

The denial card... are you sure you'd rather not just back up this claim?


So I am the one who is making up this claim now? The story of Abraham is in genesis for you to read, how he was from Ur in the Mesopotamian regions, how a god promised him a land with his own people, out came the jews, out came the arabs from Ishmael, then came jesus many generations later, then the christians after that.

Why would magazine writers choose to write "Abraham is the father of all three religions" when the bible itself loudly claims so? Judaism, Islam, and Christianity are also referred to as the Abrahamic religions because all 3 scriptures of these religions give importance to Abraham.

again, am I one who is making this claim? It's not your fault you haven't been told these things.

Altzan wrote on Thu, 20 May 2010 01:14

Raised and integrated by the people who murdered their parents, something they won't forget. Even if they did, the new parents would be loath to lie to the kid's eventual questions.
I'm sure you'll revert to chewing me out on the act itself now, but I still wish to know how you think this arrangement would work out.


Remarkable how you "pre-mention" me going to chew you out for the childkilling itself. I will save it considering you have expressed yourself throughly enough on why the children should be killed.

Eitherway, it was one of the only suggestions I can seriously think of to avoid killing the children and make a humane choice instead. And you had to turn that into something you can use against me and pose it as a question!

Altzan wrote on Thu, 20 May 2010 01:14

Then I guess you'd better goto at least one worship service for every religion to make sure you decide fairly.


So you want multiple indoctrinations like as if one weren't enough? How's that going to work considering how many religions have died out? Sure you can take your kid to the Parthenon for a good enlightening experience. You are better off teaching them about religions without bias i.e, telling them how many religions existed before yours and how there's no evidence to back it up.

This goes against your brainwashing statement you made too. If I had my own kid in the future, I will definitely tell him the genesis origin story just as I would tell him of all the obsolete religions and their myths. But what I won't do is tell him these stories as if they are factual; that they really happened. If I did, then that would be brainwashing.

Altzan wrote on Thu, 20 May 2010 01:14

Starbuzzz wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 15:06

Why question mark when the question is so simple? What did the child Alexander learn and what belief systems did he have?
What about the Ötzi iceman? Just another human being we are fortunate enough to have found his body. What information was he given and what beliefs did he have? Is he in your hell too screaming and kickin? lol
I find all religious folks to not see the past that was before their religions came to power. It's all the more ridicluous when they say they are the one true religion ever.
Again = ?
What do those people have to do with the topic?


Why am I not surprised that someone religious doesn't understand this despite me writing plainly...?

Altzan wrote on Thu, 20 May 2010 01:14

there's a difference between mentally incapable of belief and deciding not to believe.


So you are saying either a person must be clinically braindead OR simply outright stubborn to not believe?

Altzan wrote on Thu, 20 May 2010 01:14

Implying you are right and that I have yet to realize it. Pathetic.


You said you understood all the variables that make us to who we are even before we are born. When you jump on a recent belief system (this by no choice of your own!) and lord it over to the rest, you are going to look a bit clumsy to those who do indeed see the other religions too.

What I find pathetic is you rejecting every other religion, even those that came before yours, and also condemning them all to some sadistic roasting for eternity. So are you right? Really? Are you christians really this desperate to be in the middle of the grand scheme of things in the universe? Give me a break!

Altzan wrote on Thu, 20 May 2010 01:14

I believe it was a regular, public school.


Altzan wrote on Thu, 20 May 2010 01:14

Specific teachers. Mainly science ones, like biology


Was your 10th grade biolody teacher really this nasty to you? I would be surprised and feel sorry if that was the case. 10th grade is when biology is introduced in the American high school syllabus.

I remember it very clearly and pretty much the entire class (all kids indoctrinated with religious myths thanks to parental influence) were full of silent protest. After the class, I went to my friend (who was jewish) and bashed evolution to him. We then went up to the teacher and mindlessly argued with her as to how everything was there in the beginning including dinosaurs and giraffes. She just stood there silently probably wishing one day we would both come to our senses and see the real crime.

The great mother of all ironies here is that you complain that you are being told to shut up when infact the real criminals you should be prosecuting is not your poor Biology teachers but your own parents and the criminals at church who had already taken hold of your mind at an early age by indoctrinating it with religious dogma in sunday schools.

Altzan wrote on Thu, 20 May 2010 01:14

If only that was all they did.
Or even if that was just the main priority.


What other things are atheists doing that feels so despicable to you?

I am pretty sure you hate atheists sticking up for homosexuality. Well critical thinking is cumulative. There used to be a time as a christian that I disliked homosexuals and I claimed some awful stuff about them. You can read about in early posts of mine. Then my thick skull realized that I was just thumping dogma and that there really was no reason for me to bitch about homosexuals because:

1) they are not hurting anybody
2) they are consenting adults
3) that I was needlessly interefering into their personal lives
4) I, a complete outsider, is interefering with someone else's sex life.

^ thumping the bible does't allow you to come up with these reasonings.

Then I realized that I was only feeling "threatened" by them because of me upholding dogma.

It doesn't stop there. Take the pledge of allegiance for example. So there is "under god" in it and tbh, I don't mind it. But is this really "one nation under god?" Under what basis do you imply that this is "one nation under god" and do you have anything solid to say about it? To me it sounds like typical pumped-up mix of christianity and some crude patriotic rhetoric. I am really an outsider here but obviously many Americans feel it needs to go and I don't blame your fellow atheist countrymen for attempting to do so...

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