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Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality [message #428819 is a reply to message #428604] Wed, 19 May 2010 23:14 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Altzan is currently offline  Altzan
Messages: 1586
Registered: September 2008
Location: Tennessee
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Starbuzzz wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 15:06

Why do christians think atheism is a belief? It's not a "belief" system?


No, it isn't. But declaring yourself an athiest doesn't banish every belief you have. You just have different beliefs... you change them. Surely you can understand that the term "belief" isn't tied to religion alone?

Starbuzzz wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 15:06

It's upto you to see that atheism is about free-thinking and not about any absolutes. You believe in indoctrinated absolutes (like commandments, way of life, punishments (lol) and so on) while we don't because there's no reason/evidence to.


That's one way to look at it, I suppose.

Starbuzzz wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 15:06

Sorry to be so harsh but despite your belief system and "supernatural protection," we both have about the same chance of losing our lives this week.
My sister's plane (she is a flight attendant) has the same chances of crashing like any other plane despite her prayers before every flight.
That's life...it sucks. A lot. There's absolutely no evidence of anyone running this show. We just have to make sure to not be in thr wrong place at the wrong time and hope nothing goes wrong. Though you certainly have the right to believe in whatever you want if it's comforting to you and makes you feel at ease. Though I will point out why it doesn't make sense if you asked me.


I wish I knew what made you think I believed I was under divine protection.
Other than afterlife issues.

Starbuzzz wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 15:06

You can fool a kid to get into your car by showing candy; though you won't dare try the same with an adult. Religion works the same way. And they do give out candy in sunday school.


My, and I'm the biased one? Rocked Over

Starbuzzz wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 15:06

Altzan wrote on Sun, 16 May 2010 23:38

Spoony wrote on Thu, 13 May 2010 08:01

and are you told that you'll be physically punished for daring to question these concepts?

Not sure about physical, per se. They'd certainly give us a lot of grief about it, saying that it's got so much evidence behind it and has been scientifically accepted and boy, we must be stupid to think it could be wrong.

Yeah, causing "grief" and calling christians "stupid" is as bad as us stuck in "eternal screaming roasting in a lake of fire."
I will leave it at that.


I wasn't aware they needed to be compared.
One being worse than the other hardly exuses the lesser.

Starbuzzz wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 15:06

Altzan wrote on Sun, 16 May 2010 23:38

I was, for the most part, referring to how you described Christians as "having blindfolds" and "having the truth hidden from them".

I was specifically referring to children with blindfolds. Thought I was clear on that...


You're not very clear on anything, sorry to say.

Starbuzzz wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 15:06

Altzan wrote on Wed, 17 March 2010 22:22

Would I fight against a governemtal decree legally allowing something I consider a sin? Yes, because not doing so would be allowing it, thus being an accomplice to said sin.

What a bullshit excuse to inflitrate into the political process.


I hardly see how "voicing what you believe" compares to "infiltrating the political process".

Starbuzzz wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 15:06

Altzan wrote on Sun, 16 May 2010 23:38

Starbuzzz wrote

The "turn your other cheek rule" seriously undermines a human being's right to self-defense, tbh.

What, you think this means not to defend yourself from physical attack? How silly.

Of course, as expected they teach this crap symbolically on how we should lead our lives. It sets you up as the underdogs.
This is why the bible is so full of contradictions. You are told to love your enemy and turn the other cheek while it also says there's a time for war and a time to kill.
What a screw up.


Again:
"What, you think this means not to defend yourself from physical attack?"

Starbuzzz wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 15:06

Funny how you mentioned the CSI's rallying-call "come one come all" and attempted to use it against me. I didn't even hear of that motto until I looked up that Wikipedia article up for you lol.


I actually didn't know of the CSI or its rallying call. I thought I'd made the term up out of thin air, bad choice of words I guess.

Starbuzzz wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 15:06

What's really ridiculous here is how you are very quick to jump to denominational shitflinging. It's absoulutely pathetic. Then again, I found American christians to put more importance on their denominations than anyone else.


The whole denomination thing is an easy way to reference different beliefs among groups, which, as you cannot deny, is very important. Hardly pathetic.

Starbuzzz wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 15:06

Anyway, I went to a church of christ too 9 years ago when I was in Nashville. Their rejection of musical instruments (because instruments weren't mentioned in the NewT) shocked me and was something new. I heard there is also a church of christ splinter group that does use musical instruments.


Christian or not, what are, or were, your thoughts on the subject, if I may ask?

Starbuzzz wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 15:06

Altzan wrote on Sun, 16 May 2010 23:38

Starbuzzz wrote

I did hear how your culturally advanced denomination rejects the basic idea of god interefering with humanity. And I can see it for what it was; religious revision.

Care to explain how you 'know' it's such?

Christianity is almost "religions among religion" considering how many denominations exist because someone had a different opinion and had the power to create a new church.
You don't even know who is reliable...let alone someone who's country/denomination didn't exist 300 years ago! I am being objective here.


A description of religion's origins and evolutions hardly explains why you think the idea is made up.

Starbuzzz wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 15:06

Altzan wrote on Sun, 16 May 2010 23:38

Starbuzzz wrote

So surprised to hear you reject a basic, supposed, historic fact about your religion.

I'm not so sure it is "basic, supposed, and historic".

Denial. I will leave it at that considering I understand your denomination's failure to teach you basic OldT stuff.


The denial card... are you sure you'd rather not just back up this claim?

Starbuzzz wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 15:06

Altzan wrote on Sun, 16 May 2010 23:38

Starbuzzz wrote

Why should they kill the children? They were babies/toddlers. They could have been adopted and raised in the israeli camp, no?

Can you not see just how badly this would have turned out?

How so? They would be raised and integrated. Of course, this would never work with the "chosen people" tripe. And so we have to kill them, eh? It's their fault for even being born.


Raised and integrated by the people who murdered their parents, something they won't forget. Even if they did, the new parents would be loath to lie to the kid's eventual questions.
I'm sure you'll revert to chewing me out on the act itself now, but I still wish to know how you think this arrangement would work out.

Starbuzzz wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 15:06

Then again, I have come to expect this from you christians. I wonder if you guys would go on a killing spree if your god tells you too. I was reading the book of Nahum yesterday and was shocked at the gleefully-revengeful tone in which it describes the children of Nineveh being dashed against the stones. Rocked Over


I guess you'd have to decide what's more important: the morals themselves or who designed them. Rocked Over

Starbuzzz wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 15:06

Surely you will admit that you got a biased "information" set in favor of your religion? Were you taken to the worship places of other religions and observed people of different faiths worship? No. But yeah, you were taken to church and you read the bible and such. And guess what? You turned out christian.


Then I guess you'd better goto at least one worship service for every religion to make sure you decide fairly.

Starbuzzz wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 15:06

Why question mark when the question is so simple? What did the child Alexander learn and what belief systems did he have?
What about the Ötzi iceman? Just another human being we are fortunate enough to have found his body. What information was he given and what beliefs did he have? Is he in your hell too screaming and kickin? lol
I find all religious folks to not see the past that was before their religions came to power. It's all the more ridicluous when they say they are the one true religion ever.


Again = ?
What do those people have to do with the topic?

Starbuzzz wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 15:06

Altzan wrote on Sun, 16 May 2010 23:38

Ah, yes. Recorded history. Just ignore the fact that we don't have reliable history dating that far back... and if we did, Christianity would have a much stronger case.

I guess the older they are the more factual they would be. What an absurd thing to say over and over in this debate.


Older = less credibility
NOT more factual.

Starbuzzz wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 15:06

Altzan wrote on Sun, 16 May 2010 23:38

I fail to see your point. We don't think atheists and homosexuals are "scum".

There's no denying christians hold such people in a lesser light.


Depends on your meaning.
While I hold the acts as sin, I don't think less of a person's character for committing them.

Starbuzzz wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 15:06

When you refuse to believe this, you are plainly refusing to see what are all the factors that affects and motivates a person buying into christianity or any other religion.


No, I'm not.
There's a difference between mentally incapable of belief and deciding not to believe.

Starbuzzz wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 15:06

Altzan wrote on Sun, 16 May 2010 23:38

Then every single person who is born is brainwashed, no? Even telling a child to not be fooled by all the religions out there is brainwashing in and of itself.

This statement is it's own refutation in itself.


I'd love to hear your explanation for this witty remark.

Starbuzzz wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 15:06

Altzan wrote on Sun, 16 May 2010 23:38

Starbuzzz wrote

Oh the audacity of you to turn a blind eye to a billion variables that decided who you were going to be before you were even born and then claim your religion is the right one?! Oh my!

One, I don't. I recognize them quite well.

If you did, you wont be defending a recent religion to all of us under threat of hell.


Implying you are right and that I have yet to realize it. Pathetic.

Starbuzzz wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 15:06

As for that ad hominem, atleast dude when you want to pull some insults, then don't make yourself look stupid in the process. At least you could've called me a "atheist mo fo - go to hell!" and I wouldn't have minded it at all!


Stupid is in the eye of the beholder, incase you did not know.
And you surprise me, thinking I would say something like "atheist mo fo - go to hell!". Of course, you've easily misinterpreted things about me before.

Starbuzzz wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 15:06

I guess I need a break from large blocks of texts! C'mon. I have been trying to get another job so I can raise $1200 within the next few weeks to buy a plane ticket to see my dying grandfather in India. He is past his 11th hour; he is critical, fell recently and broke his leg, and I desperately wish to be holding his hands and talking to him.
What else? I got my sister's electric guitar, been to the music store to buy parts for it and have it strung...and am now learning to play it too.
Trust me, replying to posts on forums barely makes a dent on my time.


I love how you take every sentence of mine breathtakingly literally. It really livens things up.

Starbuzzz wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 15:06

Altzan wrote on Sun, 16 May 2010 23:38

I DON'T think all atheists are what you described. It was an EXAMPLE.

An example that clearly showed what you think atheists are all about. It's wrong as well. Look up eugenicists and stop making yourself look so clumsy.


Dude. I just said that it doesn't represent my view. Repeating it as fact just makes you look like the one in denial.
Being too literal. I was making a point, not sharing an opinion.

Spoony wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 16:20

Quote:

Spoony wrote on Thu, 13 May 2010 08:01

secondly, i would never dream of saying he has to agree with me and he'll be punished if he doesn't - i'd be ashamed of myself if i said something so sick.

Then let's hope that 'punishment' truly doesn't exist.

Do you hope that?


Hope it doesn't exist? No.
But
Want it to exist? No.

Spoony wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 16:20

Quote:

Spoony wrote on Thu, 13 May 2010 08:01

Give a specific example? (or several if you like)

A few years ago, at a graduation, the valedictorian was giving her speech. At one point, she mentioned God - just a passing comment, something like how she, or th class, were truly blessed to be able to gain their education - and the board presiding cut off her microphone. They were afraid her comment might offend someone who didn't believe in God.

was it a secular school? i wonder what their policy is on this sort of thing.


I believe it was a regular, public school.

Spoony wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 16:20

Quote:

Spoony wrote on Thu, 13 May 2010 08:01

Quote:

And when I question these "basic evolutionary history and social processes", I am told to shut up (not by anyone in partuclar - apparently I need to emphasize this).

by who, then?

The guys in our school system who want to teach it to us.

teachers, you mean?


Specific teachers. Mainly science ones, like biology.

Spoony wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 16:20

Quote:

Spoony wrote on Thu, 13 May 2010 08:01

and are you told that you'll be physically punished for daring to question these concepts?

Not sure about physical, per se. They'd certainly give us a lot of grief about it, saying that it's got so much evidence behind it and has been scientifically accepted and boy, we must be stupid to think it could be wrong.

i'm not understanding how this is grievous


Just look at the political world, and how sayings like this can ruin people's reputations. Pathetic manipulation.

Spoony wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 16:20

Quote:

Starbuzzz wrote

Say you have kids and you raised them christian and one of them becomes atheist after seeing through it when he is like 23. Are you going to let him go [to hell] just like that? What are all the options you think you will have to get him back?

We'd try to talk with him about it, sure. We wouldn't relentlessly bother him until he came back, though.

i think you ought to be relentlessly telling your God not to be such an evil piece of shit.


You're just affirming that there really is nothing to say about my belief on this. Just saying.

Spoony wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 16:20

Quote:

I fail to see your point. We don't think atheists and homosexuals are "scum".

odd, that. like i said, god spent half the old testament trying to make it clear he does.


Opposing it doesn't compare to an opinion about it.

Spoony wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 16:20

what atheists tend to do (and what we tend to recommend our schools ought to be doing) is encouraging critical thinking.


If only that was all they did.
Or even if that was just the main priority.

Spoony wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 16:20

Quote:

Starbuzzz wrote

This is just what the average christian thinks atheists are; heartless murderers bent on population planning. How incredibly stupid. Why am I not surprised by you saying this?

Why am I not suprised that you AGAIN took an example LITERALLY? "Oh my!"
I DON'T think all atheists are what you described. It was an EXAMPLE.
And I'm starting to think it flew right over your head.

an example which has nothing to do with atheism at all...


Correct. It had to do with his ridiculous statement about how denominations don't seperate beliefs, and how I should be held against the beliefs of every person who calls himself a Christian.
Me and some other guy could both believe abortion is wrong... and if the other guy decides to blow up the local abortion clinic, apparently I should be in just as much trouble because I opposed abortion just like him.
Makes perrrrrrfect sense.

Spoony wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 16:20

Quote:

Starbuzzz wrote

And so when you reject the religion due to its absurdity and become atheist, the very same morons (parents) that brainwashed you in the first place as a kid bully you to "believe"...they denied me intellectual freedom and still are doing so apparently to save my soul!

If that's really how they're doing it... next time they visit, tell them they're doing it wrong.

what's your scriptural basis for saying they're doing it wrong?


I don't recall the specific verses, but they said that while you should try to talk to them about it, it's best to not hold company with one who's firmly decided to go against it.

I cannot imagine how the clockwork of the universe can exist without a clockmaker. ~Voltaire

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