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Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality [message #428032 is a reply to message #427996] Tue, 11 May 2010 13:44 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Starbuzzz
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Registered: June 2008
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Altzan wrote on Tue, 04 May 2010 22:26

Starbuzzz wrote on Mon, 03 May 2010 15:44


I don't want to dwell on this issue but the only reason I brought it up is to show the poorly-made excuses christians bring up all the time to justify why supernatural interference is not occuring anymore.
here's a more plausible answer: the people who wrote these stories are no longer around to write them.


I'm sorry, I cannot understand anything you're saying here.
I'm willing to talk about it, I guess.


So far you have said that god is not interefering in the world; stepping on a cornerstone dogma for billions of christians around the world. Your claims equal that of saying the majority of christians around the world are wrong about pretty much everything.

And satan? The idea of satan is so absurd in America that most christians here are afraid and downright embarrased to talk about him while the same christians elsewhere, treat him with so much respect and give him so much credit. The world "devil" is ignored here and conveniently so.

So it is under this context that saying jesus negating god's need for supernatural acts and angels helping establish the church (I heard this first time btw) really amount to nothing but excuses of a religion that has trouble answering the basic question. This has been formulated by theologians in seminaries as a way to explain it away and is not biblical at all. It's the same with the "christianity is not a religion but a relationship" marketing gimmick made up by your theologians.

Altzan wrote on Tue, 04 May 2010 22:26

That's irrelevant, you know. You can't just blame their argument's lack of support on an indoctrination you know little about.


Not really. Your indoctrination is a condensed cleaned up version of christianity that seems to fit the progressed civilized nature of western society.

As far as the atheist argument today, I think it is convincing enough to turn a christian into an atheist. I think it's unfair for anyone (let alone someone who is himself indoctrinated) to say that it suffers from any "lack of support." If this is what you were getting at.

Altzan wrote on Tue, 04 May 2010 22:26

I was brought under a different church than you, and you have certainly surprised me with some of the things you say your church tried to teach you.


This isn't a church vs church battle. It's christianity's core dogma vs revised modernised dogma. There's a huge difference.

If jesus were here, he wouldn't want to be associated with most christians except, say the Amish.

Altzan wrote on Tue, 04 May 2010 22:26

Starbuzzz wrote on Mon, 03 May 2010 15:44

wow...so many christians don't know this. All jews, christians, and muslims trace the root of their religions to the Patriach Abraham.


I'd trace it to Adam and Eve, and their creator, myself.


It doesn't matter who you feel like tracing it to.

The 3 major religions today tracing their history back to Abraham is pretty much accepted among them. I have seen it written in top christian magazines as well.

No matter how hard christians try, it's impossible for you go further back into the past and try to apply the religious texts of a Mediterraean sea people to a time they didn't even exist! That's so absurd.

Altzan wrote on Tue, 04 May 2010 22:26

Starbuzzz wrote on Mon, 03 May 2010 15:44

There's a huge difference between human discoveries and the horror fantasies in a religious book.


How? Take both and show them to a people who are ignorant to both's origins, and they'll very likely think both are just as implausible.


So according to you, we should put "underwater life, solar flares, flora and fauna, planets and stars, and atoms, cells, and organs" in the same category as "hell, heaven, eternal life and eternal torment, angels, weird angelic creatures like cerubims, bright light, thor, vishnu, reincarnation, poseidon, athena, hercules, zeus, Minotaur..."

And we should show both to ignoramuses and ask for their opinion as well? Thankfully we live in a time when people have a basic sense of history [and understand how so many varied belief systems formed, developed, and evolved by so many different groups of people]...oh wait, they don't.

The only reason you think they fall in the same category is because you were childhood indoctrinated to believe that some of these myths are actually real. If your parents told you that the Minotaur was real when you were a kid, you will be defending it's existence now.

Altzan wrote on Tue, 04 May 2010 22:26

Starbuzzz wrote on Mon, 03 May 2010 15:44

do you imply that reincarnation is true but we aren't in a position to have "examined and studied" it?


I imply that, while I don't believe in it, I don't have concrete proof that it is false.


Why the need for formalities and political correctness? It would be much easier if you just said it's man-made falsehood.

Altzan wrote on Tue, 04 May 2010 22:26

Starbuzzz wrote on Mon, 03 May 2010 15:44

So don't you see then how silly it is to rely on any product coming out of older tribes and civilizations? How risky it is to especially rely on on their old books for setting a standard on morality and foundation for social law?


No, not especially. They've lived with the signs and the events for a long time, and their judgement can't just be hastily applied to a made-up belief.


Tell me, are you willing to apply this same logic for the other religions of the ancient world? To every religion past and present? Of course you won't!

You don't understand how religions are formed. Nor do you, as I mentioned above, understand how so many varied belief systems formed, developed, and evolved by so many different groups of people. Jeez, you would learn more about this simple truth about our past (that has been denied to you) playing the original Age of Empires.

Mormonism, for example. A bogus story based on a false rewriting of 19th century American history. It's now its own religion with a global charity/missions arm. I guess they have lived with the signs and events for a long time too, right? And that's one of the most recent examples. You can apply this to any religion.

This is why I dislike religion. It gives you a dangerous sense of exclusiveness and superiority.

Altzan wrote on Tue, 04 May 2010 22:26

I wasn't aware Americans were trying, all I see is atheists trying to remove anything religious from American culture.


Who's rights do you think matter more? Sadly, most religious people can't even bring themselves to say "everyone." As long as they get the bigger cut of the meat...

Altzan wrote on Tue, 04 May 2010 22:26

You're assuming this, actually. You don't know for a fact what I've learned from my parents and what I learned for myself. And I'd appreciate you not implying I learned everything religious from my parents alone.
I'm not denying they've influenced my viewpoint. It's the degree you imply that irks me.


I kinda expected you to say something along these lines. I must admit that I find this statement hard to believe.

As someone who myself was brought up within christian indoctrination, I can attest to this. Though I will be willing to hear your side. There's no assumptions here since I was in the same boat. Perhaps you can read my first ever post in this thread and then try to describe the way you were also indoctrinated.

Tell me what are some things you learned alone on your own? From what you have posted, you have said everything a freshly indoctrinated christian would say.

If you go back and re-read the stuff you posted in this thread and all the threads from last year, I mean, is this what a person who went out on his own would say? Every statement you said here is based on the religious influence by your parents, church, and bible.

Infact you have been so morally corrupted that you justify the murders of the children commited by the exodus gang and then so shockingly excuse that by saying "BUT THEY ARE IN HEAVEN." I guess them losing their lives in gruesome murders and the terrible agony and grief of their parents before the slaughter doesn't matter to you.

What else have you learned? You justify dictatorships over and over again. I guess dictatorships are ok with you if the dictator shares your same view. How unfair for the others! You don't realize this simple concept of equality. Is this what someone who hasn't been seriously stained with religion will say?

And that's pretty much is the big picture of who you are...atleast from my view. I would say a degree of influence close to 100%.

See, I don't mind you "believing" all this, but it is highly contrary to your original claim that you "learned" something on your own. There's a huge difference between believing and learning. And learning imo starts with asking questions, raising doubts, and demanding clarification. And if a shady answer is given to you over and over and you are also told to shut up, then the alarms should go off in your head and you think there is something wrong and seek the answer yourself.

So when asking questions and doubting itself is forbidden in christianity, it's even harder to do.

I took a huge risk/gamble (with threat of hellfire) for even thinking freely (which seems to be a huge crime somehow Sarcasm ). And it really tears up my eye as I think about the times when I had so many questions about this hideous religion I had the bad fortune of being born into and could not even ask them because of terrible fear...both of the fanatics around me and the imaginary dictator above. I felt abused when I was forced and screamed at to just shut up and believe. So it's good to see that your religion didn't even exist at one point in recorded history.

With the indoctrination system that I described, it's easy to see why there's no shortage of religious folks defending what they were brought up to believe to be true.

Altzan wrote on Tue, 04 May 2010 22:26

Starbuzzz wrote on Mon, 03 May 2010 15:44

Altzan wrote on Fri, 30 April 2010 00:26

You're reading too far into it. It's simply a step to indicate that there is a diety! Why is that so ridiculous?

It wouldn't be ridiculous if you left it at that. You also go on to imply that this deity is the judeo-christian god of abraham!


I said that's what I believe, based on it. That doesn't undo my statements about a diety, just because I have my belief on who it is.


Since your "statements about a diety" itself is an unfounded belief, it loses all credibility especially when you go on to say it's "yahweh"...who btw is a relatively newcomer to human religions.

Altzan wrote on Tue, 04 May 2010 22:26

You think sacrifice and such based on religion is laughable; I merely pointed out that it still plays on the aspect of man's inherently religious nature.


No one is going to be convinced if you just assert this over and over while outright ignoring the basic evolutionary history and social processes of early human movements that eventually forms deeper concepts such as unity, tribal idnetity, religions etc etc. And you have already plentifully demonstrated that you know little about other diverse cultures and societies both past and present (other than believing they are all going to hell).

You did deny something so basic by simply asserting this:

Altzan wrote on Mon, 26 April 2010 03:41

Man didn't initially worship nature, they did worship those "same supernatural beings".


This statement is nonsensical; it's akin to saying the 747 jumbo jet came first before the Wright brothers tiny wooden airplane. The question is simple: why would man even worship nature first if your favorite diety made everything and gave instructions? Our early evolutionary history perfectly answers this.

And do you have anything to say about the vastly growing and expanding population of non-religious people in the world today? Seems superstition is not so "inherent" after all and we are getting over religion finally just as the present day religions replaced the older religions they dethroned.

Altzan wrote on Tue, 04 May 2010 22:26

Starbuzzz wrote on Mon, 03 May 2010 15:44

Anyway, I was away for the last couple days because I was invited to a wedding. It was for one of my hindu friends and I had a really fun time at her wedding. I got to see for the first time the various hindu ceremonial marriage rituals in a very nice natural open setting. It was a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to appreciate the lifestlyes and beliefs of people from a very different religion.


That's pretty cool, hope you had fun.

Starbuzzz wrote on Mon, 03 May 2010 15:44

Now logging back into renforums and reading these christian arguments makes me feel like I am in some twilight zone away from reality lol.


I know how you feel Razz


It was a lot of fun yes. Thanks. Smile It was a break from sunday church too lol! And I appreciated her for inviting me in. Ever since I became atheist, I was more and more interested in the cultures and traditions and religions of others. And this was an awesome opportunity to do just that.

For example, as a kid living in a christian Indian home, the lie that hindus are the lowest scum of the earth ever has been impressed upon me. Seems they ain't all as bad as they were pumped up to be. I guess atheism has made me more tolerant towards others.

Altzan wrote on Thu, 06 May 2010 23:36

Spoony wrote on Wed, 05 May 2010 08:16

the general question is pretty straightforward.


Ok, then I'll try to -

Spoony wrote on Wed, 05 May 2010 08:16

just can't bring themselves to believe any of this crap


Ah. Never mind then.


There you go, everyone!

We must just simply close our eyes and say "I believe this to be true..." in the face of incredible contrary reason.

We just have to believe this...just like that. I can see why your religion needs the all important childhood indoctrination; without which it would disappear!

Altzan wrote on Sun, 09 May 2010 01:10

The question isn't useless at all.
These debates are, though.


** The question isn't useless but debating the answer is **

???

And so why spend so much time here then?

Altzan wrote on Sun, 09 May 2010 01:10

Do you REALLY expect anyone's opinion to change, on an anonymous-type forum, with the same old arguments on both sides?


yes.

The only side with the "same old arguments" is the religious side who have been repeating this for 2000 years.

If you are not the one asking the questions and seeking the answers, you won't be seeing anything new.

You have been put into the position you are in now. Once you realize this terrible truth, then that will be the day the sparks will fly. I don't see anyone demanding you to abandon your position and I certainly am not asking you too. I don't understand how you expect people to not say anything in response to anything they disagree with? It's pretty obvious why this debate even took place; your decision on homosexuality is influenced not by yourself but by your religion. And when you have the power to influence laws, a clash with your religious background is inevitable.

As for me, I can only be happy for myself. I owe so much to Spoony; I am so much indebted to him and can never repay him ever for what he has done. I could never have torn away the tight blindfolds that my parents and church put around my eyes (when I was a helpless little child) all by myself though I did try.

I see my own 10 year old brother in this. Already brainwashed in an American sunday school to believe that in heaven the jewish god "sits with a feather pen and big book in a judge's chair." Who is going to remove his blindfolds? You tell me if this is right or wrong to do to children?

Day-before-yesterday in church (this was a smaller baptist church), they brought all the sunday school kids to the front and announced that the children learned the story of "Abraham's obedience"...the story of the little boy Issac about to be offered as a live sacrifice. I sincerely felt so heartbroken for those kids and felt like walking out because I couldn't bear to watch their young minds lied to like that. That's a lot of future Altzans and old Starbuzzes right there!

So if it weren't for debates like this, I would still be in my miserable state of mind.

And there's no need to bash the "lol internet" when it's convenient to you. I see 3 people who have done so in this thread. I bet nobody bashes convenience of email over written mailed letters, no?

You see the oppressed free-thinking people in Iran and China using the internet as a loophole to connect and share their precious thoughts. why? Cuz they will get arrested by their regimes if they do it in real life. It's the same case for me. It just confirms my view that most people don't really know what freedom really is. It's more deeper than just due process, free speech, and right to own firearms. Those are important yes, but freedom doesn't stop here.

Altzan wrote on Sun, 09 May 2010 01:10


kadoosh wrote on Sat, 08 May 2010 21:36

It matters not what these people say to you. It's best for you to no waste your time on them. If there is an after life I guarantee I'll be in hell, but I'll go defending to the end your right to believe in what ever man made religion you wish.


"man made religion"? :\


Why is it so surprising? You do think every religion other than you own is man-made.

Altzan wrote on Sun, 09 May 2010 01:10

True, it's happened many times in this thread alone.
Sometimes debators (myself included at some points I admit) don't look at an opposing argument with a "let's see what they have to say" attitude, but rather a "let's see the best way to refute or ridicule this" attitude. I wish this never happened, flamewars would be less likely to happen.


I already said my reasons for debating you. Not to prove you wrong but trying to see if you have anything new. It's hard for me to look at what you are saying with a "let's see what they have to say" attitude because I was once in your position and can never be in your posititon again unless I "believe" and have "faith." I just can't "believe" just like that eventhough you keep demanding I do just that.

The childhood brainwashing is gone you see...the same stuff that they shoot into the fresh innocent mind of a young child (like las sunday) is not going to work on a educated, well-informed young adult. You can fool a ignorant customer into buying a bogus swiss watch but can't do the same with a prudent person. And you can never resell your bogus product to a customer who once used it, found out about it, and threw it away 5 ways to a dustbin...unless you can come up with something original and convincing. "Just believe this watch is real!" doesn't cut it either and you have already tried that.

Anyway, you yourself don't know where you will be in the future. That's why I said I was debating you to see if you can shed any "new juice" to make me rethink some of my values. You haven't done so. I am not surprised because ever since I declared my atheism to me parents last year (my big mistake), the tyrants brought in so many theologians and evangelists to "resave my soul." I heard the A-Z of the christian religion from them. In the end, they did a damn good job showing me how feeble, heartless, and unbelievable christianity really is and ended up making me stronger.

Bascially, if I (or any atheist) wanted to be a christian this is what they got to do:

1) force my brain to forget all about the ancient tribes/religions/cultures (and think they are all in hell because they were all false religions)
2) dismiss the idea of dinosaurs and continental drift
3) somehow "re-believe" in the genesis story and young earth (first woman came from a man's ribs etc etc)
4) Start "believing" in abraham's god and how he was so loving (dismiss the genocides they never tell you about conveniently)
5) believe that I have sinned (original sin tripe)
6) accept jesus as personal savior which then forgives the sin! (Problem-Reaction-Solution scheme right here)
7) plung myself inside biblical delusion and live a christian life "prayerfully," take a stand on non-issues like homosexuality blah blah...

Impossible.

Altzan wrote on Sun, 09 May 2010 01:10

But it's the internet, the location of almost pure anonymity, which fuels such behaviour. It's hard to curb.


I don't think Spoony or me hide behind internet anonymity. You can see the true information in our profiles and you can see who we are in the picture thread. Harldy the people that seem to hide in "pure" anonymity and act as such.

I had it so bad when mrpirate, Sniper_De7, and cheesesoda were here. mrpirate would even PM in-game and call me a "you must be that whack christian nutjob from renforums" totally making me feel so bad in the middle of the game.

Spoony was the most lenient of them all. Why? Even though he offended me a lot and I hated him for it, I kept debating with him because I he never insulted me and or uselessly retorted to name-calling like the others. He stuck to his points.

Altzan wrote on Mon, 10 May 2010 23:47


I feel the same way when someone is converted to Christianity after visiting our church for some time. It's a simple feeling of elation after conversion.


When someone becomes christian, it's another person jumping on an idealogy they don't know anything about or how it came into widespread use over two thosand years; a religion and a way of life that once didn't even exist. A few extra dollars for the offering plate. Another person who has allowed themselves to be deluded though you will claim different. Your side increased by 1. And they are going to heaven (!) and accept a man who has been dead for over 2000 years as their personal saviour for forgivng a sin they didn't even commit. They are no longer "lost" and "part of the oh so evil evil world!" and are now "saved!" yeah, I know this "elation" feeling.

When someone abandons their childhood religious indoctrination, that's a person who is able to think fairly, with reason, with true sovereignty. Even if they went to another religion, it would be ok because it was under their own power.

There's a huge difference between how anyone would feel about the two considering how high and seperate the stakes are.

It's amazing to see some of the hideous tactics churches in america (and elsewhere in the world) use to get people to come forward and accept christ. I have seen this in certain baptist and some calvary chapels too. At the end of the services, you have the calling where you are asked to "come forward in the presence of all men" and then very often you hear "so you know where you will be if you were to die on your way home."

Amazing how in a congregation of 5000 zombies, I am the only monster that can see this fear-based hell threat used to hasten people to make a decision.

*whistles*....

Altzan wrote on Mon, 10 May 2010 23:47

I was sad to hear Starbuzzz convert


There's a huge difference between conversion (simply believing something so unfounded is true based on emotional/social pressures) and conceding a position that you have been brought up to believe is true after examining evidence that was kept hidden from you.

Most of the reasons why people convert have no grounding in fact at all and their reasons to do so is emotional in nature and is based on real problems people have in their daily lives.

Altzan wrote on Mon, 10 May 2010 23:47

- although I won't host a pity party mentioning how he was misled to believe lies and blah blah - it's rude and biased.


"misled to believe lies" - this is more applicable to the religious...except they get you when you were little like those helpless kids at church two days ago.

I took what made sense and had the decency to admit that my childhood indoctrinated position was wrong. And took me three years of my own accord.

Altzan wrote on Mon, 10 May 2010 23:47

Actually, I was glad to hear he was leaving the Catholic side anyhow. From the experiences he described, they don't sound pleasant.


Anyone else see damage limitation here!? Trying to escape from accountability again, eh?

How dishonest of you! I lost track of how many times in this thread you have pulled the "my denomination, my church, and my version of christianity [that I was brought up in] is the real correct version over all others across the world so anyone crying about being being mistreated by any other version of christianity is moot!"

I wasn't catholic (sorry to disappoint). I was in your side except your country is way more advanced than mine in every level...though I am glad now that there is still a Pat Robertson around to remind you of how far christianity has collectively "progressed" and "revised" itself in your country over and over.

http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/8746/buzzsigfinal.jpg

[Updated on: Tue, 11 May 2010 15:07]

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