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Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality [message #427451 is a reply to message #427347] Mon, 03 May 2010 13:44 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Starbuzzz
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Registered: June 2008
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Altzan wrote on Fri, 30 April 2010 00:26

Yes, angels did those things in the NewT... they don't today, though.
Basically, they were helping establish the new church that Jesus had just put into place.


I don't want to dwell on this issue but the only reason I brought it up is to show the poorly-made excuses christians bring up all the time to justify why supernatural interference is not occuring anymore.

here's a more plausible answer: the people who wrote these stories are no longer around to write them.

This is actually a huge reason as to why I don't believe. The world seems to be more pessimistic in it's cyclic nature than show any order as suggested by religions. Perhaps we can talk more about this?

Altzan wrote on Wed, 28 April 2010 04:55

Starbuzzz wrote on Mon, 26 April 2010 03:43

What does your version of christianity say regarding where non-christians and casual christians will "go to" after death? What about satan?


What does this have to do with God's modern activities?


I asked out of curiosity. What is your denominations take on it? The entire christian community is awfully divided over these basic questions.

There used to be a time in the western world when satan was the supreme devil who had strings attached to all parts of the body. When you got sexually aroused, it was satan pulling the strings to "make you sin." This is the view among christians in eastern countries.

Any perverse thoughts were because satan was "putting them into you" and it was just 2 months ago that my dad claimed that I became atheist because "satan planted the doubts." What's pathetic is he truly believes it.

Altzan wrote on Fri, 30 April 2010 00:26

I don't understand how anyone can think arguments for atheism are any more credible because I have been born and brought up in a christian household and can't think things through scientifically in a unbiased way.


Fixed. You can't cut through the childhood indoctrination overnight.

Altzan wrote on Fri, 30 April 2010 00:26

Starbuzzz wrote on Wed, 28 April 2010 09:59

2) you ignored my original statement that goes to the root start of christianity.


Yeah, because it didn't make sense. More like sarcasm.


wow...so many christians don't know this. All jews, christians, and muslims trace the root of their religions to the Patriach Abraham.

Altzan wrote on Fri, 30 April 2010 00:26

Starbuzzz wrote on Wed, 28 April 2010 09:59

What is far-fetched and not flimsy? Remember we are talking hell, heaven, eternal life and eternal torment, angels, weird angelic creatures like cerubims, bright light...all packed in a faith-based belief system that uses intellectual dishonesty, brainwashing of little children to gain future followers, and the extensive use of fear-based blackmail.

And look at all the far-fetched things we see in our world today - underwater life, solar flares, thousands upon thousands of different flora and fauna, planets and stars, and all the little details - atoms, cells, and organs.
The only difference between those and what you mentioned is that they're here today and are able to be examined and studied.


There's a huge difference between human discoveries and the horror fantasies in a religious book. And I have to remind you that the bible is not the only religious book in the world thats considered the "holy scriptures."

Also, let's see all the far-fetched things you reject from other religions? Or do you imply that reincarnation is true but we aren't in a position to have "examined and studied" it?

Altzan wrote on Fri, 30 April 2010 00:26

I doubt you'd have much success trying to convince older civilizations about the existence of atoms, cells, and such like...


I can also see how difficult it will be for them to believe that airplanes fly because of the manipulation of the laws of physics (aerodynamics). They would be more inclined to believe it flies on magic fairy dust.

So don't you see then how silly it is to rely on any product coming out of older tribes and civilizations? How risky it is to especially rely on on their old books for setting a standard on morality and foundation for social law?

Also didn't the ancients' ignorance of the world around them increased the chances of them making up stuff (they did this too) to explain away the causes?

Altzan wrote on Fri, 30 April 2010 00:26

I am, too. It's great to see both sides of the story and compare.


good good...cheers Big Ups

Altzan wrote on Fri, 30 April 2010 00:26

What's irritating are the atheists who imply that Christians are moronic simply because of their faith, and that their ideas are superior. It's quite pathetic.


If christians kept their beliefs to themselves and stopped trying to bring their religion into politics to enforce it on the whole nation aiming for a theocracy style government, then they wouldn't have earned such a bad rep from pretty much everybody. They are only hurting themselves. Trust me, they are trying to do this everywhere and not just in America.

jesus instructed you folks to carry his message to the whole world. And he specifically instructed you folks that if his message is rejected by any people, then shake the dust off the feet when you leave them:

Luke 10:10-12

10 But into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you not, go your ways out into the streets of the same, and say,

11 Even the very dust of your city, which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you: notwithstanding be ye sure of this, that the kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.

12 But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.


Simple translation: if anyone rejects my message, show them the finger and go preach elsewhere. I will deal with them later.

So when did his message become, "if a people reject me, go crush them and break their backs, and inflitrate their political processess, make sure they teach about me in school and pray to me in public and establish a christian theocratic state where everyone obeys me and let those who oppose me be systematically oppressed"?

^ There you go...that's the religious movement of America today in a nutshell.

I don't know what is pathetic; atheists wanting fair secular laws for everybody or christians wanting to enforce their outdated tribal laws on everyone else. So what were you saying again?

Note: There are very few christians (both Indians and Americans) I know who are truly christ-like. It's very sad that they are outnumbered 1 to 200.

Altzan wrote on Fri, 30 April 2010 00:26

And really, I don't see how science's ideas of what happened so long ago are any more credible because I have been born and brought up in a christian household and can't think things through scientifically in a unbiased way.


Fixed. I am gonna have to say the same thing again: you can't cut through the childhood indoctrination overnight. It took me three whole years to see through the false worldview I was brought up to see. I remember the times when I would angrily turn off the TV at any Discovery channel documentaries. They make more sense now since the childhood christian indoctrination no longer works on me.

You see where I am going with this? That's what extremely unfair and downright evil about religious doctrination. They grab our mind before we can come to our own conclusion later in life. In other words, you, my friend Altzan, have not thought things through with your own intellectual sovereignty. It was imposed by your parents like it were for me and you are merely repeating what they put into you.

Altzan wrote on Fri, 30 April 2010 00:26

Starbuzzz wrote on Wed, 28 April 2010 09:59

1) to gauge if the religion I abandoned has any "new juice" left
2) to not prove you wrong but to see if my own rational conclusions are tenable still.
1) Why should it have any "new juice"? apart from your saying that religions change.
2) I don't understand.


1)Well, I did say how it has revised itself and made itself more modern to sound less ridiculous! I was truly surprised when you said god doesn't interfere anymore.

2) I was looking to see if anyone can present anything convincing that will make me rethink anything. So far here as well irl, nothing convincing is being said to their credit.


Altzan wrote on Fri, 30 April 2010 00:26

This is another belief thing, you know...
It occured when Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit, and realized that they were naked. Apparently they thought this was a problem.


I applaud you for being honest and crediting the "belief thing." I used to believe this too though now eventually, personally, the thought of humans wearing clothing due to environmental conditions and social development in groups made more sense.

There are millions of people in Africa and the the pacific islands who are either semi-nude or nude due to their cultural traditions and hot/humid environmental conditions.

Altzan wrote on Fri, 30 April 2010 00:26

You're reading too far into it. It's simply a step to indicate that there is a diety! Why is that so ridiculous?


It wouldn't be ridiculous if you left it at that. You also go on to imply that this deity is the judeo-christian god of abraham!

Altzan wrote on Fri, 30 April 2010 00:26

Not really. It's looking at the facts. Such as that it isn't recent.


You can clarify this bit for me; is this the seniority law here?

Altzan wrote on Fri, 30 April 2010 00:26

Lol, even if all the early humans were like that, it stills vindicates the point of "basic human attribute" and "superior force".
Now THAT's laughable.


You lost me...completely. Help me out.


appshot wrote on Sat, 01 May 2010 13:41

nobody knows how the universe started. People believe a supernatural or "godly" being made the universe, but then the underlying question is that how was that supernatural being created, and the chain would go on and on. Whilst, on the more scientific side, the same question can be applied endlessly, because something can't just come from nothing. The universe has to have been created by something, or someone. for example, Who/what created the universe? Who/what created the who/what that made the universe? and so on. So, currently nobody knows. Its funny, how atheists and theists both bullshit about this.


Everything you said were reasonable until you added in the last sentence.

The only bunch of people in the entire world that don't accept that "they don't know everything" are the religious group. They know exactly what was before the universe (we heard someone here say "eternal mind" and so sure of it!), they know what god/gods were behind it, they know which set of religious texts are the right one and which of them are wrong (!), and they know the A thru Z of everything.

Tell me honestly if you think atheists fall into this group? Now tell me who is bullshitting?

Nowhere do atheists claim that they know everything. I do know that religious people always falsy accuse science of doing just that.

I mentioned earlier that humans always want quick instant answers and this explains religions' popularity. You get this even with religious scientists. Religion is comforting to many and acts like a stop gap.

It doesn't work that way with science. It moves steadily (despite dubious attempts at sabotage by religions) to uncover more and more about our place in the universe so future generations of humans can continue the work in our path of discovery. Science is not for those who want a quick answer. An open unbiased unstained outlook is needed;

For example, challenge a scientist and he will say, "let me research it and get back to you." The funny thing is how the religious crowd react to it gleefully; they jump and point, "aha he doesn't know - praise the lord!" like as if they know! At least with the scientist you know he will get back to you with something that doesn't sound downright ridiculous.

Richard Dawkins said something a long time ago that pretty much sums up your average atheist:

Quote:

My mind is open to the most wonderful range of future possibilities, which I cannot even dream about, nor can you, nor can anybody else. What I am skeptical about is the idea that whatever wonderful revelation does come in the science of the future, it will turn out to be one of the particular historical religions that people happen to have dreamed up...If there is a god, it's going to be a whole lot bigger and a whole lot more incomprehensible than anything that any theologian of any religion has ever proposed.


The inquiry about our existence is like a massive but strange multiple choice question. We have a ton of choices we have dealt with already. Some we have crossed out already as being invalid and downright wrong (like religions). And there's a ton of choices hidden from us which we have made it our quest (through science) to find. It will be very laughable indeed if someone claims that in the future, when we do uncover those hidden choices, one of them is going to be, "Yahweh" or for that matter, "Marduk" or "Osiris" or "Annunaki" because these are, no matter how hard you look at it, come down to being products of specific cultural groups!

-------

Anyway, I was away for the last couple days because I was invited to a wedding. It was for one of my hindu friends and I had a really fun time at her wedding. I got to see for the first time the various hindu ceremonial marriage rituals in a very nice natural open setting. It was a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to appreciate the lifestlyes and beliefs of people from a very different religion.

Now logging back into renforums and reading these christian arguments makes me feel like I am in some twilight zone away from reality lol.

edit: added orangey stuff.

http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/8746/buzzsigfinal.jpg

[Updated on: Tue, 04 May 2010 02:02]

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