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Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality [message #427341 is a reply to message #427313] Sun, 02 May 2010 06:00 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
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Altzan wrote on Sun, 02 May 2010 11:58

I didn't say that my motivation was "a good deal in the afterlife". I said that the cause of my actions will bring about that effect. Not my motivation.


Altzan: People will forget you, your actions will have been for nothing.
Spoony: You don't think anything in your life is worthwhile?
Altzan: Of course I do. What I do in life determines where I go in death.

this implies that the only way an action could be worthwhile is if there is an afterlife, and the only concept of 'worthwhile' is to your own benefit.

question. let's say there isn't an afterlife. if someone found a cure for cancer, would that be worthwhile? would this person's action have been for nothing?
another question. let's say there is an afterlife, and that the christian guess at it is correct. and let's say the scientist was not a christian. do you think he's still going to hell?

Quote:

Spoony wrote on Fri, 30 April 2010 06:29

What am I asking you to believe, and what am I threatening you with the most horrific punishment imaginable if you don't believe?


You're asking me to believe that there is no God (or my God, at least). Also, that Christianity is both false and evil.

i don't give a shit whether you believe it. i thought i had made that clear. the only reason i am criticising religion is because it's trying to take over the world.

on the day religions do not have the unbelievable amount of undemocratic power they have over humanity, i will probably not think it worthwhile to criticise it.

Quote:

Spoony wrote on Fri, 30 April 2010 06:29

you'll notice that there is a "t" and a "h" but not a "d" in atheism.


I noticed. There's also an "a" which represents "anti".

or "non", but that's not the point. it's theism that is being rejected, not deism.

almost no atheists say that they know there isn't a god. they generally say nobody's come up with any decent evidence, or even a convincing line of argument, that there is one. but that's not even the point. this isn't the "opposite" position to what the religious say. religious people don't just say "i think there probably is a god" - they go much further than that. they say they know which one, they know what he approves and disapproves of in us, they know he watches everything we do, hears our prayers and may act on them, and will judge us once we die.

quite a lot more is being claimed here than "i don't find this book of yours very convincing, sorry"

Quote:

Spoony wrote on Fri, 30 April 2010 06:29

for starters, nobody's ever demonstrated that a mind exists or has ever existed without matter to back it up.
secondly, you say that not only could a mind be eternal, but that THIS MUST BE the case if what we're talking about is not matter. it's not X so therefore it's Y... it's a terrible way to reach a conclusion.


1) Nobody's ever demonstrated modern-day miracles or other Old Testament events either.

You said a mouthful!

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Absence of evidence on that part isn't evidence of absence.

Indeed it isn't, but evidence of absence is not necessary to reject a claim. Absence of evidence is quite often enough.

Quote:

2) Normally, I'd agree on that algebraic view... but not until you can explain how there can be something that isn't X or Y... mind or matter.

i've got a better idea, how about you prove to me that there has ever been a mind that did not have matter to it?

Quote:

Logically, it is a statement. It is either true or false. I asked you which you think it is. If you refuse to answer and give no reason other than "I don't accept that this is a yes-no question" then you are indeed evading it.

When did I refuse to answer? I said I wouldn't have phrased it like that.

Quote:

Spoony wrote on Fri, 30 April 2010 06:29

given the cruel and merciless depiction of god in the bible, why would the amount of evil in the world suggest that he ISN'T still around? i've never understood people who say: there can't be a god because of how fucked up the world is. they must be reading a different bible to the one i read.


Given how many Biblical quotes you've provided, you should have a pretty decent idea of what "sets God off", so to speak... and you've seen examples of what he does in response, in the OT... so, why isn't he responding much the same today?

because it's fiction Sarcasm

Quote:

Spoony wrote on Fri, 30 April 2010 06:29


quite a lot. you say god isn't intervening in the modern world? i would think that subjecting humans to the worst punishment imaginable if they don't believe in him or disagree with his religion counts as intervening.


I don't see how an act of the afterlife counts as "modern-time".

Oh, really?

So God is doing absolutely nothing about the murderers etc in the world, then?

Quote:

Spoony wrote on Fri, 30 April 2010 06:29

Quote:

Starbuzzz wrote on Wed, 28 April 2010 09:59

1) it does not make any sense to use the word "belief" to anything atheist.

Why not? Atheism isn't the absence of belief. It's a belief that no deity exists.

not necessarily.


Go on.

see above.

an atheist does not need to say "there's no god", and very few atheists do (unless they want to save time).

Quote:

Spoony wrote on Fri, 30 April 2010 06:29

You say there are unicorns who created the world, and they wrote this book with rules for us to follow, and if we don't believe it or don't like it, we'll be tortured in the dungeon forever. I say I don't find that very convincing, and the rules are pretty crappy.
I do not have the same burden of proof as you. I'm not claiming to know how the world was created - simply saying that your explanation looks nothing more than fiction. More importantly, I'm not telling you that my boss will punish you for ever if you don't believe in him or don't like him. The sides of the coin are by no means equal.


That's exactly my point.
No matter how much you disprove Christianity (or try to), it won't make a difference if you don't have an alternative that you believe in.

Alternative to what, exactly?

I can give you better alternatives to most parts of Christianity.

The rape rule, for example. I think a better alternative is to lock the rapist up and offer some kind of counseling to the victim if she needs it. Either way she shouldn't ever have to look at him again.

The doctrine of forgiveness, the idea that your sins can be forgiven if you believe something (seriously, what the fuck? how can something so ridiculous be so widespread?). Better alternative. You do something wrong? Apologise to the people you affected, do what you can to rectify the situation, and resolve to behave better next time.

Any other alternatives you want?

Quote:

God didn't create himself, he was never created. He is eternal

How do you know that?

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