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Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality [message #426862 is a reply to message #426839] Sun, 25 April 2010 18:17 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Starbuzzz
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Altzan wrote on Thu, 22 April 2010 11:55

Starbuzzz wrote on Tue, 20 April 2010 13:42

I am only saying this because you (2nd time I believe in this thread) have tried to shake off this important aspect from your religion in a way that suggests to me "that because we don't do it over here, what they do over there doesn't count and is not part of my religion." Sorry, but that is just incorrect.


Why?
Why should I be blamed for the belief choices made by other "Christians"?
Are you telling me that I'm to be associated with Catholics, for example, because they call themselves Christians?
Because that is just absurd.


"Belief choices?" rather odd choice of words tbh about christians all across the world following their religion. It is by belief that a huge majority of christians blame earthquakes on human actions and a fatal car accident on your god's wrath. It ain't a choice. It's very real and biblical.

This is what I was getting at. They are as christian as you are. As mentioned earlier, from what's quiet apparent, the western versions of your religion is modernized and phoney. It's quiet amazing that this coincides with the fact that the west has been leading human progress for thousands of years.

Altzan wrote on Thu, 22 April 2010 11:55

Starbuzzz wrote on Tue, 20 April 2010 13:42

Many christians I have spoken seem to understand this and say that atheists cannot blame the past versions of christianity because, similar to what you said here earlier, life was different back then. They are just too thick to understand what this really means; that this is a man made story that has been garbled and re-garbled over and over again.


What?


Altzan wrote on Thu, 22 April 2010 11:55

Starbuzzz wrote on Tue, 20 April 2010 13:42

Quote:

(Follow the strait and narrow path, there will be few who walk it.)

This is another spin off the ancient superstitious practice of sacrifice and self-sacrifice to obtain certain rewards. "If you give up this and that, you have greater reward blah blah."


Again, what?


When an atheist points to previous versions of christianity that used to be practiced, there is nothing but denial followed up with a "life used to be different then" excuse.

You can come that close to finding the right answer (i.e, "life used to be different then") but then stop yourself there. Yes, life used to different then and the earth was considered to be flat and the center of the universe and humanity as a whole was a lot more idiotic level than it is now.

It's the same deal with the concept of sacrifice. They used to sacrifice live humans at one point before moving on to valuable goods like food. Now it's down to "self-sacrifice" by giving up what are obviously natural human traits but mistaken for "lust." You get this all the time with sexuality...it's completely natural yet the religious see it as something to be treated with "caution" and control. That's "religious sacrifice thru the ages" for you in a nutshell.

Altzan wrote on Thu, 22 April 2010 11:55

Starbuzzz wrote on Tue, 20 April 2010 13:42

Let's see if this "narrow path" was all worth it a thousand years from now...


I look forward to it.


One sunday last summer in church (after I became atheist in May), I went to drop off my brother at the sunday school. The old staff guy asked me who I am...to which I replied that I am his brother. He looked puzzled at me and wondered out loud if I am even old enough have any authority to drop off my brother. He wasn't rude at all. Well, I was 22 then but I am one of those people that get mistaken for being 16 all the time (due to looking younger I suppose). I took out my drivers licence and showed it to him and he went ape! He was like "wow awesome! god has blessed you with young looks" and he said how god was also going to "strip away my old body and give me a brand new one so I can be young again like you after the resurrection."

I smiled and left. The man apparently has faith and hope about something he would certainly like to have in real life that he didn't get to have. tbh, I cannot blame him. I can understand how futile his hope is but if it keeps him trucking, I am not going to bother him.

You here is in a similar situation though it leans more toward the condensed concept of some form of self-sacrifice to get faith-based rewards in the afterlife. "Make your body a living sacrifice" said the new-age pastor of the nondenominational megachurch a couple months ago. Well, quiet risky (I bet you think the 9/11 hijackers didn't get their reward for all their hard work). While I do think the reward that you feel "will be worth it" is quiet illusionary and not worth gambling your life away for, I am not interested in intruding into that area as it does not affect me...only you.

Altzan wrote on Fri, 23 April 2010 22:29

Spoony wrote on Thu, 22 April 2010 05:58

Quote:

Well, man has been naturally religious for quite some time. The vast majority of every tribe or civilization has had some sort of higher power in their beliefs.

And I expect you would probably agree that the overwhelming majority of religions that have been believed over the centuries have been incorrect.
Furthermore, let's never forget the way religions propagate; through violence, threats, and most importantly, by lying to children.


Sure, sure. But this basic human attribute of looking toward a higher power had to have come from somewhere.
Which leads to...


This definitely does lead to the proof that the god of abraham is real and that he did make us, pre-programmed us, and gave us our moral compass.

Not.

You jumped from "basic human attribute" to "god maybe real" which is not quiet surprising from religious people (who jump at gaps). I have heard this argument from many folks that use it in debates like this and I myself used this argument here when I used to be christian. I rejected this argument eventually because it gets easily untenable when more facts are brought in to the mix.

If any supernatural creatures did come down and gave humanity our moral compass, wouldn't the early religions be based around and worship these very same supernatural beings? Why then did pre-historic humans worship nature initally before moving on to spirits...

Whatever way you look at it, its obvious humanity is like a person in a dark room trying to make sense of who and what they are. Most definitely not a person in a dark room with a flashlight (courtesy of gods) and knowing where exactly to go. If that had been the case, there wouln't have been so many variations in belief systems popping up. It's been a long process of understanding and we have come a long way and have a better idea of who we are than any ancient belief system could claim.

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