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Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality [message #424094 is a reply to message #423803] Sun, 28 March 2010 18:16 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Altzan is currently offline  Altzan
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Spoony wrote on Fri, 26 March 2010 11:53

i'm not seeing how this refutes my point?
the woman gets away with it because sinful people are supposedly not allowed to punish offenders. we're told we're all sinful, so what's the point the law being there if it's unenforcable?


Perhaps I wasn't trying to refute it?

Spoony wrote on Fri, 26 March 2010 11:53

and yet throughout the bible we have innumerable cases of god eagerly punishing or threatening to punish innocents for the crimes of others. you've even defended that bullshit yourself.


That doesn't change the fact that the Bible doesn't command us to persecute Jews.

Spoony wrote on Fri, 26 March 2010 11:53

firstly, i said: where's the evidence supporting the account given in genesis? you said the second law of thermodynamics/entropy.


When I said those two examples, I was NOT giving them as evidence to Genesis, I was bringing it up against evolution, as I already said.

Spoony wrote on Fri, 26 March 2010 11:53

secondly, i don't give a shit whether you or anyone else is convinced by the theory of evolution or not, and i'm not aware of anyone saying "you MUST believe this or you'll suffer horrific punishments for eternity". but still, i'm not sure exactly why you think the second law of thermodynamics is supposed to be a counter-argument to the theory of evolution?


So you want me to provide evidence and attempt to vindicate Genesis, but you don't think I should make any move against evolution? One-sided, no?

Spoony wrote on Fri, 26 March 2010 11:53

k, then here's the one i was talking about we are. Deuteronomy 13:12-16
If thou shalt hear [say] in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying,
[Certain] men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known;
Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, [if it be] truth, [and] the thing certain, [that] such abomination is wrought among you;
Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that [is] therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.
And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again.



I took the liberty of changing your quoted verses to KJV.
Now here's Matthew Henry's commentary which should hopefully answer any question you have provided you read it carefully.

Toggle Spoiler


Spoony wrote on Fri, 26 March 2010 11:53

Another noteworthy statement along the same lines: Deuteronomy 13:7-11
[Namely], of the gods of the people which [are] round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the [one] end of the earth even unto the [other] end of the earth;
Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.



Same as above, here:

Toggle Spoiler


Spoony wrote on Fri, 26 March 2010 11:53

I'm not seeing why someone else thinking that the Christian revelations were crystal clear and think there's nothing immoral about his commandments justifies the horrific punishment threatened to anyone who disagrees with them.


It doesn't justify, sure, but I'm trying to point out a different opinion since yours is the prominent one here.

Spoony wrote on Fri, 26 March 2010 11:53

Not really, the catholic church has had plenty of time up till now to defend its absurd and immoral position on contraception, and it hasn't done so.


If the people who physically did those things were still alove and were asked the question, I'm sure they'd answer... but they're not around today, are they?

Spoony wrote on Fri, 26 March 2010 11:53

1. you mean the gospel says so - not the same thing at all. how do you know that everything in there is exactly what the writers wanted to say?
2. they didn't all claim the same thing. the gospels contradict each other about almost every major event in jesus' life.
3. ah. i remember you saying you hadn't read the qur'an or hadith either. well, these all claim to be revelations from the god you believe in... don't you think you should at least read them before deciding they're not the real deal?


1. "How do you know" again? Same answer - I don't. How do you know they weren't? You don't. Simple answer - we don't know.

Spoony wrote on Fri, 26 March 2010 11:53

Firstly, you seem to be affirming that you don't think there's anything wrong with threatening someone with horrific punishment for nothing worse than disagreeing with you.


The played-down part here is "disagreeing with you" - it's a lot more than that, you know.

Spoony wrote on Fri, 26 March 2010 11:53

Secondly, are you drawing a parallel between 1. disagreeing with someone, and 2. raping a child? we have laws to protect children from paedophiles because raping a child is a genuine crime with potentially severe consequences for the victim, and because basic human decency leads most of us to think vulnerable children need to be protected from predatory adults. i hardly see how this is the same situation as someone who is not convinced that a particular religion is correct or disagrees with its teachings?


I could use ANY exmple here if I wanted. I'm not talking about the act in particular. Let's change it to whatever law then - the lawbreaker disagrees with the law at hand, and doesn't think it's a proper law and should not be enforced. Should we punish him anyway, or should we let him be, since it isn't fair that we punish him for breaking a law he doesn't think is fair or right?

Spoony wrote on Fri, 26 March 2010 11:53

Quote:

I'm referencing to actions made by the people in the Old Testament, and you keep turning it around to "Look what GOD did!"

actually a lot of my criticism of the moral evils of the old testament are reported to have been carried out by the god character himself. certainly his followers do a lot of evil things, certainly he ORDERS a lot of evil things, he also DOES a lot of evil things (ordering them can count in this column too)


That's what I said, yeah. You refer to what GOD did, when I was referring to something else.

Spoony wrote on Fri, 26 March 2010 11:53

you misunderstand me. i didn't say humans should have equal rights to 'god'. i don't see any reason why this 'god' should have any rights, since nobody's even managed to demonstrate that it exists at all.


Stop dragging the hypothetical situation to the real world - IF God did exist (IF), should we have equal rights to him?

Spoony wrote on Fri, 26 March 2010 11:53

secondly, i seem to recall having this argument with you before. apparently we're stuck as slaves to anyone who created us? well, what if you found out that you were created by a mad scientist in a lab, a modern-day dr. frankenstein? would that make you his slave, like it or not?


That's a completely different situation, eh? Mad scientists would have to work with inventions and materials around him, not create everything out of nothing with pure will.

Also, if we were made by a mad scientist, we'd be wherever he was (unless he was completely alone in the universe) and would be subject to his existence as well, so...

Spoony wrote on Fri, 26 March 2010 11:53

if we were to find out that the origins of life on earth was because some aliens 'seeded' the planet a few million years ago, would that mean we have to be slaves to them?


Again, completely different scenario.

Spoony wrote on Fri, 26 March 2010 11:53

if instead you decide that you were created by your parents in the traditional way, do they rule you for your entire life?


'The traditional way'?

Spoony wrote on Fri, 26 March 2010 11:53

if the only people on this planet who've gotten it right are in your particular denomination, then apparently it is.


Again, we're not. But some (or a lot) groups have changed the scripture to suit themselves. And as the Bible says, let no man add or take away from what is written.

Spoony wrote on Fri, 26 March 2010 11:53

Quote:

It also is pretty simple to understand what God says is a sin and what is not.

sure, doesn't mean we need to listen to him, considering how absolutely crap his moral standards seem to be.
but that's no surprise; he was, after all, created by bronze-age middle-eastern barbarians.


But they're simple, as you just affirmed. Not cryptic at all.


I cannot imagine how the clockwork of the universe can exist without a clockmaker. ~Voltaire
 
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