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Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality [message #423443 is a reply to message #423077] Tue, 23 March 2010 21:25 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Altzan is currently offline  Altzan
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Spoony wrote on Sun, 21 March 2010 19:37

pity not all of the barbarism of the old testament has been "replaced", then, eh? no condemnation of slavery, for example. another example: the story of let he without sin cast the first stone. jesus doesn't say that the old law has been removed, he just says that none of you guys here are capable of enforcing it since you're all sinful. well, that surely means that we can't enforce laws at all, doesn't it? we can't punish adultery?


I have no idea what you mean.

Spoony wrote on Sun, 21 March 2010 19:37

Quote:

Spoony wrote on Sat, 20 March 2010 01:22

if you're further told that all Jews are guilty of the murder of Jesus...
Where is that said?

one of the gospels has the jews at the crucifixion calling for the responsibility of the murder of jesus to fall upon themselves and on all their descendants.


OK, so how does that translate into a Biblical command to kill Jews?

Spoony wrote on Sun, 21 March 2010 19:37

you said this:
"So far, all the scientific theories that contradict the Bible have no more evidence than it does."
that's plainly nonsense. the age of the earth, for example... there's an extraordinary amount of evidence supporting the old-earth theory (about four and a half billion years). the bible would put it more like 6-10 thousand, for which there is no evidence at all.


I wouldn't call it 'extraordinary'. 'Speculative', more like.
For example, what about Carbon-14 or helium present in rocks? If they've been around as long as billions of years, they would have disappeared. Yet they still remain.

Spoony wrote on Sun, 21 March 2010 19:37

another would be evolution. darwin didn't just make it up, he studied the evidence and created his theories accordingly. we're finding new fossils all the time. where's the evidence supporting the account given in genesis?


What about the Second Law of Thermodynamics, or Entropy?

Spoony wrote on Sun, 21 March 2010 19:37

perhaps you didn't read my statement very carefully. i was not referring to a specific story of god flattening a city; i was citing the instruction given by god to his followers of what to do if you encounter a city where they worship a different god. firstly it doesn't say that they have to be carrying out human sacrifices to qualify for the punishment, just says they need to be worshipping a different god. that's all it takes. secondly the punishment is the total extermination of the city, including children.


Can you cite the specific verse, since you seem so familiar with it?

Spoony wrote on Sun, 21 March 2010 19:37

so you don't mind all that much, is what i was getting at? and you don't actually object to the fact that they will go to hell?


Yes, I mind. But if someone doesn't want to "hear, believe, and repent", then what am I supposed to do, eh? Pressing the issue won't help, forcing it won't help.

Spoony wrote on Sun, 21 March 2010 19:37

you misunderstood the question. i was asking: so you're the real christian, and they're the splinter group? on what basis do you say that this is the case, as opposed to them being real christians and you being quite mistaken, or as opposed to both of you being wrong?

I suppose all Christian denominations are splinter groups now, since it would be extremely difcult to prove which particlular one was the stem.
The main basis of our belief is the Bible, whereas other groups like Baptists and Catholics aren't following Bible scripture.

Spoony wrote on Sun, 21 March 2010 19:37

Quote:

How do you know that they were aware that condoms did work, or that they really didn't believe condoms were sinful?

Who cares?


Apparently you do... If you're going to say that they were spreading lies about condoms, it would be a good idea to know the intention behind the act, right?

Spoony wrote on Sun, 21 March 2010 19:37

Quote:

You still haven't mentioned where the Bible says to persecute an entire race for one sole act.

race? no. religion? yes.

Go on...

Spoony wrote on Sun, 21 March 2010 19:37

Quote:

If God exists and has all that power that he does, why should we be equal with him?

Might makes right, then?


You didn't answer the question.

Spoony wrote on Sun, 21 March 2010 19:37

This doesn't answer my question. Who exactly wrote each portion of the bible?


"Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy = Moses - 1400 B.C.
Joshua = Joshua - 1350 B.C.
Judges, Ruth, 1 Samuel, 2 Samuel = Samuel/Nathan/Gad - 1000 - 900 B.C.
1 Kings, 2 Kings = Jeremiah - 600 B.C.
1 Chronicles, 2 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah = Ezra - 450 B.C.
Esther = Mordecai - 400 B.C.
Job = Moses - 1400 B.C.
Psalms = several different authors, mostly David - 1000 - 400 B.C.
Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon = Solomon - 900 B.C.
Isaiah = Isaiah - 700 B.C.
Jeremiah, Lamentations = Jeremiah - 600 B.C.
Ezekiel = Ezekiel - 550 B.C.
Daniel = Daniel - 550 B.C.
Hosea = Hosea - 750 B.C.
Joel = Joel - 850 B.C.
Amos = Amos - 750 B.C.
Obadiah = Obadiah - 600 B.C.
Jonah = Jonah - 700 B.C.
Micah = Micah - 700 B.C.
Nahum = Nahum - 650 B.C.
Habakkuk = Habakkuk - 600 B.C.
Zephaniah = Zephaniah - 650 B.C.
Haggai = Haggai - 520 B.C.
Zechariah = Zechariah - 500 B.C.
Malachi = Malachi - 430 B.C.
Matthew = Matthew - A.D. 55
Mark = John Mark - A.D. 50
Luke = Luke - A.D. 60
John = John - A.D. 90
Acts = Luke - A.D. 65
Romans, 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 Thessalonians, 2 Thessalonians, 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon = Paul - A.D. 50-70
Hebrews = unknown, mostly likely Paul, Luke, Barnabas, or Apollos - A.D. 65
James = James - A.D. 45
1 Peter, 2 Peter = Peter - A.D. 60
1 John, 2 John, 3 John = John - A.D. 90
Jude = Jude - A.D. 60
Revelation = John - A.D. 90"

Spoony wrote on Sun, 21 March 2010 19:37

How do you know that, and how do you know this was not the case for the numerous gospels that were rejected from your bible because a group of politicians decided they should be rejected?


Because the writers themselves said they were inspired by God.

Spoony wrote on Sun, 21 March 2010 19:37

Here was my original quote.
"I'm saying that there should not be a punishment at all. Disagreeing with him or his rules, or having doubts in his existence, or having doubts that the books which claim to reflect his mind or that the people who claim to speak for him actually do so, is not a crime at all by any sane definition."

You still haven't refuted that.


I can't refute an opinion, which is all that is.

Spoony wrote on Sun, 21 March 2010 19:37

And why can't you pull yourself away from this "doesn't want to believe" bullshit? It's simply a case that many people find your assertions unbelievable. This does not imply a choice on our part; it simply means that your assertions are dodgy.


Because it isn't bullshit. If you cannot bring yourself to understand, then you have the choice of pursuing the issue via study. If they're "dodgy", then you can't blame the claim without even putting any more effort into understanding.

Spoony wrote on Sun, 21 March 2010 19:37

then your denomination is in the extreme minority of those who claim to be Christians.


When we travel, it's certainly very hard to find a church that we can go to. Most of the ones we see are either Baptist or Catholic (which makes sense, they're probably more popular because of their "faith only" belief).

Spoony wrote on Sun, 21 March 2010 19:37

and what if you're wrong, for example, about the islamic claim that you need to be a muslim otherwise you'll end up in hell?


Then I'm wrong. Your point?

Spoony wrote on Sun, 21 March 2010 19:37

did you read the statement of mine you just quoted?
the one where i talked about the genocide and slavery in your horrific holy book?
and you think the problem is someone complaining about your religion?
holy shit.


Hitler killed millions of Jews, and all you can complain about is Catholics in your government?
You're changing the subject to avoid my original point, even changing my words. Is that the best argument you have?

Spoony wrote on Sun, 21 March 2010 19:37

Quote:

Because Adam and Eve weren't alone. All throughout the Old Testament are numerous examples of people disobeying one of God's commandments, which were given by God's presence.

and all throughout the old testament are numerous examples of god punishing innocent people for the crimes of others... and here you are defending it.


Changing the subject again?
You sure like to jump to that point a lot, especially when it's irrelevant to my quote.

Spoony wrote on Sun, 21 March 2010 19:37

so you're saying you do reject the idea of humans determining the way our societies work by means of voting? just want to make sure i'm getting that right.


No, I like the system a lot. But the system only works when everyone involved is of equal status.

Spoony wrote on Sun, 21 March 2010 19:37

excuse me, but the people who have spent thousands and thousands of years trying to tell us what to do are not higher powers. they just say they work for one.


Hypothetically, if you knew for a fact that there was a higher power, would you or would you not give allegiance to it? Or would you fight it?
That's all I'm asking, here.

Spoony wrote on Sun, 21 March 2010 19:37

How do you know Jesus' mother was a virgin?
And what would that prove even if it was true? if you and i are arguing, can i just say "you lose this argument". you: "why's that?" me: "because my mother didn't have sex with a man". a few animals can reproduce this way, so it's not totally unthinkable that a human might as a result of some mutation or something... why would it prove that the child had any divine power, and why would it vindicate everything they said?


Alone, if proves little (despite the fact that there are little to no other evidence of a virgin giving birth before), but the baby grew and performed miracles, which is proof enough.
Of course, this visible proof was long ago and only written report remains.

Spoony wrote on Sun, 21 March 2010 19:37

His fulfillment of these prophecies was very spectacular: Jesus gave sight to the blind, made the lame walk, cured those who had leprosy, gave the deaf hearing, and raised people from the dead! These miracles and others were done many times in front of thousands of witnesses for three years. About 30 AD, Jesus was crucified (a prophecy) and died (a prophecy). Three days later he rose from the dead (another prophecy), after which He was seen by over 500 witnesses.
How do you know he did any of these things?


What about all the testimony of people who saw it happen? Or wait, since it was so long ago it can't be valid, right?

Spoony wrote on Sun, 21 March 2010 19:37

How many people are in your "denomination?"


I don't know for a fact. A good indicator is that we always worship at a "Church of Christ", since that's the only name the Bible supports.

I cannot imagine how the clockwork of the universe can exist without a clockmaker. ~Voltaire

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