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Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality [message #423010 is a reply to message #422818] Sun, 21 March 2010 14:00 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Altzan is currently offline  Altzan
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Spoony wrote on Sat, 20 March 2010 01:22

Quote:

but certainly not all of it is still applicable.

So you're deciding which ones are not applicable now? How do you decide that? And how do you reconcile that with Deuteronomy 13:1;
Whatever I am now commanding you, you must keep and observe, adding nothing to it, taking nothing away.


There's also verses saying why the Old Testament was replaced by the New Testament. Several mention the "new covenant" God was planning on/did make with the people. Another mentioned something like, "If the old system was perfect, it wouldn't need to be replaced." It was an update, per se, since the way of life since then has changed.

Spoony wrote on Sat, 20 March 2010 01:22

if you're further told that all Jews are guilty of the murder of Jesus...


Where is that said?

Spoony wrote on Sat, 20 March 2010 01:22

lol... where's the evidence supporting every assertion made by the bible, please?


You thus inply that every scientific theory has supporting evidence, which of course is not true.

Spoony wrote on Sat, 20 March 2010 01:22

eh? do you even know what i was talking about? anyone who's read the bible carefully will know which one i mean. along the lines of "if you hear of a town where there are people therein who worship a different god, you must put the entire town to the sword".


"The primary reason was punishment for wrongdoing. The populations of the destroyed cities had long histories of grievous sins (Gen 15:16, Dt 25:17-19), which often included sacrificing their children to false gods (Dt 12:29-31). Their consciences should have told these people they were doing wrong. Had they listened and changed their ways, they would not have been destroyed. God has said that if any nation is about to be destroyed as punishment but repents, he will forgive them and not destroy them (Jer 18:7-8). In fact, this occurred in the city of Ninevah (Jonah 3:4-10).

In the cities that were given to the Israelites as their inheritance, there was a secondary reason: totally depraved cultures were destroyed so that they would not corrupt the Israelites into committing the same evil acts (Dt 7:1-4, 20:16-18). This did in fact occur: when the Israelites didn't obey God and destroy cities, they too began practicing child sacrifice (Ps 106:34-40).

Additionally, the destruction of wicked nations served as an instructive warning to contemporaries (Josh 2:1-11) and future generations (1 Cor 10:1-11)."

Spoony wrote on Sat, 20 March 2010 01:22

so you're quite content to allow others to go to hell, when you could save them?


You misunderstood me, so let me try again. I will try to teach the word to others because I don't want them to go to Hell. If, however, they hear and then choose not to believe, I will not relentlessly press the issue.

Spoony wrote on Sat, 20 March 2010 01:22

they're the splinter group, are they?


They're a splinter group, yes.

Spoony wrote on Sat, 20 March 2010 01:22

they outright lie about the properties of condoms, saying they not only don't help prevent aids (of course they help) but actually can increase the chances of aids. not only that, but they declare that aids are sinful.


Man, that sucks. I don't see how a disease (if that's the right word) is sinful. Certain methods of contacting it are, but not just having it.

Spoony wrote on Sat, 20 March 2010 01:22

when millions of people are dying in africa every year and we could easily prevent this through a simple campaign of education, just how evil do you have to be to effectively collaborate with the virus?


How do you know that they were aware that condoms did work, or that they really didn't believe condoms were sinful?

Spoony wrote on Sat, 20 March 2010 01:22

Quote:

Anti-semitism - I see no reason to persecute a race for one historical act.
Your god seems to. Like I said, there are plenty of occasions in the bible where he innocent people are punished for the crimes of others. This is no surprise to me, nor does it present a problem for atheists, of course - it was written at a time when humanity's grasp of morality was pretty feeble, so no wonder it's such a shitty source of morals.


You still haven't mentioned where the Bible says to persecute an entire race for one sole act.

Spoony wrote on Sat, 20 March 2010 01:22

but you can't deny the logic that if someone genuinely did believe in heaven and hell, it would make perfect sense to convert people by force if necessary, and they would be doing their victims the highest of favours.


Yes, I can. Converting is a choice, it can't be forced. If I forced you to be baptized and orally declare that you believe the Bible, it wouldn't do jack. You have to mean it.

Spoony wrote on Sat, 20 March 2010 01:22

cool, but you don't seem to mind dictatorships per se.


If God exists and has all that power that he does, why should we be equal with him?

Spoony wrote on Sat, 20 March 2010 01:22

Quote:

How'd you come to that conclusion?

you said it's based on evidence (giving extremely shaky examples) and then basically said "faith" is required to fill in the gaps. how hopeful you must be that you've filled in the gaps correctly...


It'd be hard NOT to.

Spoony wrote on Sat, 20 March 2010 01:22

Quote:

1. Each book in the Bible states who wrote it near the beginning or end.

"exactly who"


"God used men to write down His thoughts much as a businessman uses a secretary. He allowed them to put these thoughts in their own words. But the men themselves said they were inspired.

(2 Peter 1:20-21) 20 For YOU know this first, that no prophecy of Scripture springs from any private interpretation. 21 For prophecy was at no time brought by man's will, but men spoke from God as they were borne along by holy spirit.

Again Paul's words:

(2 Timothy 3:16-17) 16 All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.

Approximately 40 men, from Moses to the Apostle John were Bible writers from 1513 BCE to 98 CE. Many may claim otherwise but an internal study of the Bible will show that it is of Divine origin."

Spoony wrote on Sat, 20 March 2010 01:22

Quote:

2. God inspired them to write what they did. They didn't write it by their own intuition alone.

How do you know that, and how do you know this was not the case for the numerous gospels that were rejected from your bible because a group of politicians decided they should be rejected?


See above.

Spoony wrote on Sat, 20 March 2010 01:22

Quote:

3. Why the gospels contradict? Why four seperate people's own written logs of 30 years do not perfectly match up?

Not even vaguely, in some cases.


...Mmkay.

Spoony wrote on Sat, 20 March 2010 01:22

perhaps you could explain from where you "learned" that the bible was compiled "very soon after jesus' death"?


It wasn't something I learned, it was a very poorly placed educated guess. I did some researching into it, which also resulted in the quote above.

Spoony wrote on Sat, 20 March 2010 01:22

You didn't answer the question. If Hell was there, why didn't god say anything about it in the old testament? He's very keen on making creatively vicious threats to back up his commandments, so if he's got this fiery torture chamber you'll go to if you aren't careful, why not mention it?


It's mentioned. I'm not familiar with the verses myself, yet. Here's one:

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt. (Daniel 12:2)

Spoony wrote on Sat, 20 March 2010 01:22

Spoony wrote on Fri, 19 March 2010 22:46

I have yet to see parents raise a child, be subject too all of his/her complaints/disobedience/rudeness/etc, and not punish the child in any way.

How is that an analogy?


It's an analogy because God took care of the growing nation of Israel, and they constantly complained. Example (one of many), God gave the Israelites manna for food. It was easy, all they had to do was pick it up, no planting or harvesting. It fed them and gave them the nourishment they needed. Yet they complained about it. hey even went as far as to say, "Why'd you bring us out of Egypt to die? I'd rather be a slave than die out here!"

Spoony wrote on Sat, 20 March 2010 01:22

This god of yours gives us no reason at all to think he exists, and his followers tell us we're rude for asking for evidence (you said "hopeless case", remember) and then we're told we'll suffer horrific punishments if we have doubts.


Wow, that whole sentence is wrong.
"This god of yours gives us no reason at all to think he exists" - he gives a plethora of reasons. If a person doesn't want to believe, OK then...
"and his followers tell us we're rude for asking for evidence" - I bet you've never met someone from my denomination. Asking for evidence here doesn't beget rudeness, rather an invitation to study it.
"and then we're told we'll suffer horrific punishments if we have doubts." - Not doubts, no. Refusal, yes. Doubt's a middle ground, it means you haven't thrown your lot one way or another.

Spoony wrote on Sat, 20 March 2010 01:22

You doubt some religious claims too, remember...


True.

Spoony wrote on Sat, 20 March 2010 01:22

i assume you're talking about adam and eve. even if that was true, what's that got to do with anyone other than adam and eve?


Because Adam and Eve weren't alone. All throughout the Old Testament are numerous examples of people disobeying one of God's commandments, which were given by God's presence.

Spoony wrote on Sat, 20 March 2010 01:22

your bible is full of genocide, slavery, the punishment of innocents... and you're condemning complaining?


Right, so when God provides me with my physical needs, asking little in return, then complaining about what I've got is totally okay.

Spoony wrote on Sat, 20 March 2010 01:22

as for "demanding more", i wouldn't ask for anything from a character i thought was fictional.


You could watch all twelve plagues hit Egypt consecutively and still be doubtful?

Spoony wrote on Sat, 20 March 2010 01:22

yes, i do want religion to let humans do as we please, some of us do actually like the idea of democracy.


I'd be okay with democracy too - y'know, if we were all gods as well...

Spoony wrote on Sat, 20 March 2010 01:22

Quote:

I also see the implication that the possibility of any being having greater stature than man is horrible to consider.

No, it's not.

well, you keep mentioning how it's bad to be governed my a higher power... so, why?

Spoony wrote on Sat, 20 March 2010 01:22

Quote:

There are Bible statements that consist with Astronomy, Paleontology, Meteorology, Biology, Anthropology, Hydrology, Geology, and Physics. Also with Prophecy, Textual Evidence, and Historians.
So yeah, there's evidence.

Go on?


Going On.

Spoony wrote on Sat, 20 March 2010 01:22

Quote:

Yes, because they shouldn't impose their rules on non-belivers. Standing up for what you think is right is one thing, but trying to force someone else to think your way is another.

And yet you defend the threatened punishment for thinking the wrong way.


Yes. I said I won't force you to believe what I believe, but that isn't because of a lack of the "right way".

Spoony wrote on Sat, 20 March 2010 01:22

Quote:

Why are we born with that caring attitude? Or are you still trying to figure that out as well?

I wouldn't necessarily say we were born with it, but the concept of human solidarity, of caring for one's family, has certainly helped us last this long.


Those concepts had to have come from somewhere, right?

I cannot imagine how the clockwork of the universe can exist without a clockmaker. ~Voltaire

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