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Re: Question for Christians [message #388216 is a reply to message #388208] Wed, 27 May 2009 21:43 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Spoony is currently offline  Spoony
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ljbh... you must feel better saying that, right?

i've a question... that stuff you PM'd me about earlier and told me to keep quiet about (I have done so) - am I the only person you said that stuff to until now?

Starbuck wrote on Wed, 27 May 2009 22:19

Altzan wrote on Tue, 26 May 2009 20:54

If you firmly will not believe something unless there's proof and logic to back it up, you're a hopeless case.


Most definitely not when it comes to religion.

With all due respect, the fact of the matter is that a thousand religions came before yours.

no shit. there have been thousands of gods throughout recorded history (well, of course, there have thought to have been...). When I hear a Christian/Muslim/whatever ask me why I don't believe in Yahweh or Allah, I just fail to see why I'm the one with any explaining to do. I don't think any of them are real - he thinks 4999 of them are not real but 1 of them is. Like I said... am I the one with any explaining to do here?

Starbuck wrote on Wed, 27 May 2009 22:19

I left Christianity when I discovered that it is indeed full of violence and that I have been lied to all these years by ministers and my parents.

^^ mmhmm.

long ago you asked me what's wrong with bringing kids up to be christians?

the answer is: there's nothing wrong with teaching kids about religion so long as it's done fairly. this means pointing out the bad sides of it as well as the good, it means pointing out the fact there's no proof for much of it, pointing out that we now have much better explanations for the creation of the world and the universe and ourselves, pointing out the fact the bible contradicts itself over and over and over etc etc etc...

but of course, when people want to bring kids up to be christians, they don't do any of the above, and that is brainwashing.

Starbuck wrote on Wed, 27 May 2009 22:19

As Spoony pointed out earlier, God forbids not to kill yet he wiped out most humans in a massive flood. He then makes a covenant in which he regrets his actions and promises never to use water to kill again (creates the rainbow as well in the process). And over and over again he uses men like Joshua and King Saul to invade enemy cities and kill "every man, woman, child, and cattle." In fact, he punishes King Saul for sparing the livestock of one of the cities he wanted destroyed.

^ When the dumbfuck in me realized that, I quit Christianity FOR GOOD. I REFUSE to worship such a god who I was fooled into thinking was actually merciful.

yep. in almost every religious debate i come across a christian or a muslim who claims to be devout - i find myself asking them if they've read the bible properly? they invariably haven't. i once made a challenge to a christian who was ranting about the devil. i said: go through your bible, every page, and make a note of everything bad Satan does. i'll go through mine and make a note of everything bad God does, or orders to be done, then we'll come back in a week's time and compare the lists.

Starbuck wrote on Wed, 27 May 2009 22:19

It's pretty obvious Jesus physically died on the cross. The fairy tale about his return was most probably written by unknown authors decades later.

i don't have much of a problem accepting that a man called Jesus existed, or that he may have been a moral teacher and philosopher... or even that he was crucified. these are, after all, not extraordinary claims. anything supernatural is another matter entirely...

Starbuck wrote on Wed, 27 May 2009 22:19

But these girls...these girls are praying to Allah! He is not real...he is fake! How can he help them pass! He is a warmongering criminal! He orders the suicide bombers! A killer!

here we have another irony. Allah purports to be the same god as Yahweh, simply a more recent revelation. Earlier I asked why someone would be convinced of one god's existence but sneers at the other thousands. well, if someone is convinced that Christianity is a genuine revelation from a genuine god (on no evidence)... why dismiss a more recent update from that god?

surely islam supercedes christianity in the same way that christianity claims to supercede judaism. by extension, mormonism supercedes islam...

Starbuck wrote on Wed, 27 May 2009 22:19

I asked myself, those girls don't know Jesus so they must be going to hell to be tortured.

yep. and most people just don't seem to realise the sheer evil of this concept. we quite rightly condemn the likes of stalin, who would kill you simply for disagreeing with him. but at least when you were dead he was more or less finished with you... with god, the real fun's just about to start.

Starbuck wrote on Wed, 27 May 2009 22:19

Pastors will always sing to you and tell how if you accept Jesus you get everlasting life but what they forcefully ignore is that those who don't accept Jesus will go to hell. They never tell you this.

I'm honestly surprised by this, I hear it all the time.

Starbuck wrote on Wed, 27 May 2009 22:19

If today you were dragged to a Mosque and told to worship Allah, will you do it? Of course not. That's how I felt when I was literally screamed at and told to shut the fuck up and get in the car to church. You probably have not faced such a situation so my words are just garbage to you but I am being absolutely honest here.

Yes, I know this stuff really happens, and I am fortunate to have parents who have always let me make my own mind up religion-wise. I actually thanked them for this exact thing a few months back.

Perhaps you're now beginning to understand why I involve myself in these debates. I don't wanna ridicule people's religious ideas just to make them look stupid or because it's funny (although it sometimes is) - this is a moral point. Freedom of belief is a basic human right. And I define freedom of belief as the following: "everyone's allowed to make their own completely free, completely informed choice of belief, or non-belief". We simply do not have this, and I firmly believe we ought to... hence trying to raise awareness, for the sake of people like you.

But you do have it better than some; the penalty for leaving Christianity isn't actually death...

Starbuck wrote on Wed, 27 May 2009 22:19

Why all these changes? It difficult to ignore the facts all the time. I tried very very hard to be Christian and my Christian friends here in this forum know it too well. But ultimately the steel door of religion that I was imprisoned behind failed to hide it's cracks and at one point the cracks became so obvious I was just able to kick the fucker down and run out. Without the help of a few good people who stood up for what is truly right, I would not have been able to do so.

Smile

you almost certainly aren't finished making your mind up, but then as an atheist or agnostic, you've got time on your side.

Starbuck wrote on Wed, 27 May 2009 22:19

For the first time in my life, I feel like a massive weight has been lifted off my mind. Like as if somebody just erased everything from a board. I have a fresh slate to work on. Damn it's a good feeling to not be a slave. I feel like I don't belong to any group and that is tremendously satisfying to me.

i am genuinely, genuinely happy to hear this.

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