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Re: Debate on Altruism. [message #371782 is a reply to message #371770]

Thu, 12 February 2009 10:14

reborn
Messages: 3231
Registered: September 2004
Location: uk - london

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cheesesoda wrote on Thu, 12 February 2009 10:01

The thing is, you CAN'T have an unselfish concern for someone else and their well-being. You said it yourself, it's your motivation and desire to see them free from suffering.

Yes, joy and happiness that you gain from it is a by-product. It wouldn't make sense if it wasn't. You don't feel the same sense of accomplishment if you simply think "today, I'm going to help someone".

Basically, I don't see how you can perform an unselfish act. You'd basically have to unknowingly perform an act that benefited someone in some way. Though, you then wouldn't perform that act consciously OR subconsciously, so it doesn't really count.

My desire is to see them freed from suffering. My desire is not to see them freed from suffering because it makes me happy, I know you are debating the reasoning for the desire has to come from a selfish motivation, however my reasoning for this desire comes from compassion.

I realise you think that this feeling of compassion is the selfish act, by relieving there suffering I feel better, because I want to see the end of there suffering. However, my feeling better about the situation is not my motivation, my motivation is the desire to see them freed from suffering.

You believe the mere act of fulfilling your desire is a selfish one, even if the desire is a selfless notion?
And really, by your definition there is no such thing a selfless notion, because every thought we have is basically about ourselves in someway?
Actually, the more I think about it, the more I can see your point of view.
By this reasoning, does that mean that no Christian would get into Christian Heaven? There love for Christ and the Holy Father is not not selflessly given, but rather out of hope of favour? Or a place in heaven, some after-life reward, or just because it makes them feel good to worship. Or irrelevant of there motivation, the mere acts of Christianity themselves are enough to grant entry, God loves them anyway regardless of there reason for worship?
Infact, if no one is capable of a selfless act, does that mean that no religions God's love for its followers in unconditional? The deity itself loves you because he has a desire that needs to be fulfilled too?
Do humans only marry eachother, not out of love, but out of selfishness? They do not really want to spend there lives making the other person happy, but really only want to feel good because they are making that person happy, or perhaps even less noble desires.
If I stop someone from throwing themselves off a bridge to commit suicide, I talk them into choosing life. I do this because I don't want them to die, I don't want them to die because I value life, and because O got what I wanted, this is selfish?
You've given me allot to think about, I hope you're not right, I feel that you probably aren't, but I'm not as sure as I once was.

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[Message index]

		Debate on Altruism. By: cheesesoda on Tue, 10 February 2009 14:55
		Re: Racism By: GEORGE ZIMMER on Tue, 10 February 2009 16:07
		Re: Racism By: cheesesoda on Tue, 10 February 2009 16:59
		Re: Racism By: GEORGE ZIMMER on Tue, 10 February 2009 17:09
		Re: Racism By: R315r4z0r on Tue, 10 February 2009 20:42
		Re: Racism By: z310 on Tue, 10 February 2009 23:26
		Re: Racism By: R315r4z0r on Wed, 11 February 2009 09:47
		Re: Racism By: Spoony on Wed, 11 February 2009 07:24
		Re: Racism By: cheesesoda on Tue, 10 February 2009 18:50
		Re: Racism By: u6795 on Tue, 10 February 2009 19:29
		Re: Racism By: Ethenal on Tue, 10 February 2009 19:43
		Re: Racism By: Ma1kel on Wed, 11 February 2009 01:37
		Re: Racism By: SSADMVR on Wed, 11 February 2009 02:45
		Re: Racism By: Starbuzz on Wed, 11 February 2009 09:36
		Re: Racism By: z310 on Wed, 11 February 2009 03:12
		Re: Racism By: Goztow on Wed, 11 February 2009 04:26
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: cheesesoda on Wed, 11 February 2009 06:30
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: cheesesoda on Wed, 11 February 2009 07:30
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: Spoony on Thu, 12 February 2009 06:29
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: Herr Surth on Wed, 11 February 2009 08:04
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: SSADMVR on Wed, 11 February 2009 09:02
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: cheesesoda on Wed, 11 February 2009 10:50
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: R315r4z0r on Wed, 11 February 2009 11:27
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: cheesesoda on Wed, 11 February 2009 15:15
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: GoArmy44 on Wed, 11 February 2009 21:26
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: Herr Surth on Wed, 11 February 2009 10:52
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: Starbuzz on Wed, 11 February 2009 11:14
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: Ryu on Wed, 11 February 2009 12:56
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: R315r4z0r on Wed, 11 February 2009 16:15
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: cheesesoda on Wed, 11 February 2009 18:22
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: reborn on Thu, 12 February 2009 00:38
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: cheesesoda on Thu, 12 February 2009 04:03
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: SSADMVR on Thu, 12 February 2009 02:48
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: reborn on Thu, 12 February 2009 03:27
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: reborn on Thu, 12 February 2009 05:59
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: cheesesoda on Thu, 12 February 2009 06:28
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: cheesesoda on Thu, 12 February 2009 06:35
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: Spoony on Thu, 12 February 2009 08:35
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: reborn on Thu, 12 February 2009 07:17
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: cheesesoda on Thu, 12 February 2009 08:01
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: reborn on Thu, 12 February 2009 10:14
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: bisen11 on Thu, 12 February 2009 08:13
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: cheesesoda on Thu, 12 February 2009 08:24
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: bisen11 on Thu, 12 February 2009 14:13
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: cheesesoda on Thu, 12 February 2009 09:07
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: Spoony on Thu, 12 February 2009 11:24
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: cheesesoda on Thu, 12 February 2009 10:31
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: reborn on Thu, 12 February 2009 10:54
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: cheesesoda on Thu, 12 February 2009 11:35
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: Spoony on Thu, 12 February 2009 11:57
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: SSADMVR on Thu, 12 February 2009 12:02
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: reborn on Thu, 12 February 2009 12:11
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: Ma1kel on Thu, 12 February 2009 12:19
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: reborn on Thu, 12 February 2009 12:46
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: Ma1kel on Thu, 12 February 2009 12:54
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: Ma1kel on Thu, 12 February 2009 13:01
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: cheesesoda on Thu, 12 February 2009 13:08
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: Spoony on Fri, 13 February 2009 04:33
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: reborn on Fri, 13 February 2009 05:07
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: reborn on Thu, 12 February 2009 13:08
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: cheesesoda on Thu, 12 February 2009 13:20
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: Ma1kel on Thu, 12 February 2009 13:09
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: reborn on Thu, 12 February 2009 13:29
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: cheesesoda on Thu, 12 February 2009 13:37
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: Ma1kel on Thu, 12 February 2009 14:00
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: Herr Surth on Thu, 12 February 2009 14:05
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: cheesesoda on Thu, 12 February 2009 14:41
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: CarrierII on Thu, 12 February 2009 15:39
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: nikki6ixx on Thu, 12 February 2009 16:31
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: cheesesoda on Thu, 12 February 2009 16:41
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: Muad Dib15 on Thu, 12 February 2009 17:58
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: BlueThen on Thu, 12 February 2009 18:03
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: cheesesoda on Thu, 12 February 2009 18:12
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: reborn on Fri, 13 February 2009 00:41
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: cheesesoda on Fri, 13 February 2009 08:24
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: bisen11 on Sun, 15 February 2009 01:25
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: reborn on Fri, 13 February 2009 09:27
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: cheesesoda on Fri, 13 February 2009 10:05
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: z310 on Sun, 15 February 2009 01:47
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: bisen11 on Sun, 15 February 2009 11:29
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: Ma1kel on Tue, 17 February 2009 11:35
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: bisen11 on Tue, 17 February 2009 23:59
		Re: Debate on Altruism. By: Ma1kel on Wed, 18 February 2009 13:43

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