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Re: Man returns gun ammo to walmart at 1300 feet per second [message #283787 is a reply to message #283422] Wed, 12 September 2007 07:18 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
NukeIt15 is currently offline  NukeIt15
Messages: 987
Registered: February 2003
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I know this has been responded to already, but it was just so inanely stupid that I couldn't resist. Sorry if I drag things backwards a bit.

Quote:

All I'm saying is this: in the USA, where every dumb fuck can get a gun,


Firstly, not "every dumb fuck" can buy a gun (legally). No matter where you go in the US, no matter what sort of gun you aim to buy (excepting fully automatic, which requires a special federal permit), when you select your purchase and fill out the on-site paperwork, the dealer picks up their phone. In every state but one, so far as I know, they call a toll-free number to an FBI hotline, and the FBI performs a background check against a national database of felons, loonies, and anyone else who ought not have that gun. This background check is, as one would expect in the twenty-first fucking century, a very quick procedure. It doesn't require the three-day wait periods some states have in place, and it certainly doesn't require weeks. Thusly, by the time the dealer hangs up the phone, they know whether or not you are legally permitted to own a gun. They then look at the paperwork to make sure you haven't omitted anything they may have been informed of during said phone call. In the one state where the dealer does not call the FBI directly (New Jersey), the dealer instead calls the State Police, who then call the FBI- this is done so that the state government can grub $15 from every gun purchase, not for any security reason. Still think every dumb fuck can get a gun (legally)?

Quote:

you have loads of accidents with guns. As if that's not bad enough, how often can you actually use a gun to protect yourself? I'm not talking about your home because, wtf do I care about some idiot that wants to steal my stuff? I surely wouldn't want to kill him. Of course, it might differ a bit on what he's taking, but as long as it isn't personal stuff, the insurance will pay. For me that's not worth the risk anyway. Besides, because everyone can get a gun, what makes you think the criminal doesn't have one? He has nothing to lose, as you might kill him. He'll now probably kill you first. On a side note: how often you get robbed when you're home?


Here's the rub, skippy: if there's a criminal in your home, they are a threat to anyone in the house. Sure, youc an say "well, they'll go after my stuff first," but you're not a psychic and neither am I- there is no way of knowing what that asshole means to do when they break and enter. While there are a great many people over here who would sadly agree with you, many more are of the opinion that once a criminal violates your home, they are already a threat and their life is forfeit.

Additionally, robberies that happen when you aren't home aren't the fucking point. The issue here is what you choose to do when there is a confrontation. And if that criminal is armed, they might get off the first shot if you are also armed. However, they will get off the first shot if you aren't. I'd rather not die because some tool like you decided that I didn't have a right to defend myself and my loved ones by any means necessary- and that makes me damned glad you aren't writing the laws over here.


Quote:

In the Netherlands you do have burglary of course, just like anywhere else. But not more then in other countries where you can easily legally get a gun.


I really have neither the time nor the patience to sift through crime statistics now, so I'll just leave that be. I'll come back to this one if I feel up to it later.

Quote:

Also, you're saying that criminals can always get a gun. Perhaps this is true, but here you know that if someone is found to have a gun, he is a criminal and will get arrested.


This is a fallacious argument. The analog here would be to say that you know a person is a criminal because they were found carrying marijuana- no shit, Sherlock! They're committing a crime because they're carrying something that is illegal. The problem is that you can't prove that they intended to do anything else illegal using said prohibited thing. That's why if you get caught with weed here you only get charged with possession, and if you get caught with an illegal gun you get charged only with possession and not with "intended homicide." Also, in order to arrest a criminal you have to catch them first. Guns are, as you may or may not have heard, somewhat easily concealed. And, as you may or may not have figured out by now, it is rather more difficult to impose your will on somebody who is armed. Would a desperate criminal (hypothetically, of course) always just give up with an "oop, you caught me- good show!" when they have the means to violently resist? You're assuming an awful lot here, and assumptions evidence do not make. At any rate, the fact remains that said hypothetical criminal does have a gun, and they have ample opportunity to squeeze off a few at somebody before the police- hypothetically- take them down (I don't know how well armed your boys in blue are), and if nobody else is armed then he can do so with impunity.

Quote:

Also, in the USA there will be many many more guns, simply because everyone has one. Thus, the burglar we just mentioned can steal your gun, and there you go, another gun in criminal hands.


Another stupid, stupid, uninformed, and stupid statement. No, everyone in the US does not have a gun. Some of my best friends are anti-gun, and even among those of my friends who support gun rights only a handful actually own one. Hell, my mother doesn't own a gun, even though my father and my sister and I all do (and more than one each at that). That alone tells me that you've never even bothered to glance at anything that backs up your conclusions; how the hell can you pretend to 'know' what the situation is over here when you can't be arsed to look up even the basic facts? No, I can't remember the exact numbers offhand- but the number of gun owners in this country adds up to ~1/3 of our total population, IIRC. The number of guns owned is much higher, because many people who own guns own more than one.

Secondly, you make the assumption that the criminal will get their hands on your weapon before you can use it. How so, exactly? When using a weapon for home defense, it is common practice to keep that weapon in a small combination-locked strongbox beside your bed. To make an assumption of my own (a necessary one, if we are to presume that there will be a confrontation at all), you will wake up when you hear the criminal enter your home. Are you willing to argue that the criminal can reach your room, guess at your combo, and extract your gun before you can do the same? Bullshit. In the real world, it happens this way- you wake up to the sound of somebody breaking in. You punch/dial in the code and pick up your gun and ammo, and load it. This takes no more than a few seconds' time, if you've had the good sense to practice. This is possible in all situations unless the criminal entered your room directly from the outside, in which case it is usually more advisable to use a melee weapon such as a baseball bat which is quicker to pick up and easier to use at point-blank range. Or did you, perhaps, think that the gun would be the only means a well-prepared homeowner would have available to defend their home with?

Quote:

on your last point: if you keep your gun safely locked away, how can you (quickly) use it when there is a situation you can solve with a gun?


See above. Also, acquire a carry permit in order to deal with situations outside the home (in those states which require it).

Quote:

So one way or another, that doesn't work. Now if you want to kill innocent children, be my guest, as long as I don't have to be a part of it.


That, my uninformed friend, is a statement which provides nothing but a quick emotional jab to your arguments. Not only is it assuming quite a bit. For starters, that you would keep a loaded weapon where a child could easily get at it, that you wouldn't make any attempt to educate said child so that they know not to point the bloody thing at their own self, or that you would be so stupid as to neglect everything you've ever learned about gun safety and point it anywhere but up, down, or at your intended target- even when unloaded- to say nothing of the implicit assumption that every person who owns a gun will go around intentionally shooting children.

"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. Horrid mischief would ensue were (the law-abiding) deprived of the use of them." - Thomas Paine

Remember, kids: illiteracy is cool. If you took the time to read this, you are clearly a loser who will never get laid. You've been warned.

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