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Re: What The Bleep Do We Know!? [message #217232 is a reply to message #217127] Mon, 04 September 2006 08:30 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Scythar is currently offline  Scythar
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NeoSaber wrote on Sun, 03 September 2006 19:18

Scythar wrote on Sun, 03 September 2006 17:30

True, but a passive sonar i.e. the observer, also has had a "ping" sent, just not by the observer itself, but some other entity. There's always a "ping", or in other words, a force that's applied to the observed, before it can be observed.


If force is applied to the observed, it becomes an observer of that force, and is therefore effected by it. Then it can take control, making itself the observed again, by changing the information being sent from itself. For example, stealth aircraft get "pinged" by radar, but they modify it so the radar tower doesn't see a proper return signal. The stealth aircraft, acting as the observed, manipulates its outgoing "information" to convince a radar tower that it isn't really there. The aircraft has the control because it has better manipulation of outgoing information than the radar tower does. It forces others to believe what it wants them to believe by controlling the way it is observed.


The problem I have with that is this: "Then it can take control, making itself the observed again...". The problem is, it *WILL* take control, not "can". It has no choice, it always works in a predictable way, that's what it was built for by humans, it's a machine.

But we're not much different. It's much tougher to predict how human acts, but if we could read a persons memory and past experiences, not from brain alone but also genes, and had the knowledge to process the information, I'm sure we could predict exactly how the person will act in different situations. We could know how a person "decides" to modify the information he receives, after which he, the observed, no longer has control of any kind - he is completely predictable.

In fact, looks like *nothing/nobody* is in control, everything we do is based on the first interaction of observers/observed ones when the universe was created.
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It's also possible for the observed to generate the force itself. If a star explodes, the shock wave it makes will destroy any observers around it. If a light bulb turns on, the light it generates allows observers to see it. Etc, etc.


And as I explained, you can't say "if" a star explodes. The stars *will* explode. They don't explode spontaneously, there's always a reaction involved (star runs out of fuel), and if you can measure the star and everything that affects it, you can predict when it happens. Light bulbs don't just turn on all of a sudden either. Someone turns them on, and with an unimaginable amount of knowledge and processing power, you could predict when it turns on.
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Scythar wrote on Sun, 03 September 2006 17:30

Good point. On the other hand, do they *really* have the control over us, the observers of the video? They certainly can't make all of us react in the way they wanted to. In the end, it's us, the observers, who make the choice - consciously or unconsciously - of how we want to react to the video. Isn't it the observer that always gets to say the last word in how it observes the world?


When I say "control" I mean it a little bit figuratively. As the saying goes "information is power". The observed is the one who gets the chance to modify information. The observer just has to accept the information given. I don't mean accept as in "agree with". I mean it more like "absorb".


And again, the observed doesn't "get a chance". He is bound to modify it or not modify it based on his observations that happened earlier in life.
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The people in the video may not be able to convince us, but only because previous bits of info we've received over our lives leads us to distrust or question the info they have provided. At the same time, we may be convinced because the info we've accumulated over our lives has led us to accept the information received as valid. It's the information we received over the course of our lives that forms our willingness to accept/decline future information. It's the sum of everything we've observed that determines our reactions. We're constantly being effected by everything around us and it influences everything we think. I should probably be working on stuff for RA:APB right now, but you sent out "information" (your post), that made me react to it. You exercised a degree of control over me. Even if I ignored you and didn't respond, the act of ignoring is still a reaction. It's taking me forever to write this because of spell checks and revisions for the sake of clarity. I only do that because previous information I have received indicates that I should take care in what I write. Big Grin


And I agree with this part. You didn't have a choice any more than I do now. (actually, I don't know myself well enough to be sure whether or not I'll post this, we'll see in a while I guess)
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We might be able to decide how we view the world, but in that case we are being both observed and observer at the same time. As the observed, we send ourself an opinion about the information. As the observer, we accept our opinion. Even then, we're still basing that opinion on the information sent to us over our life.


And since we base that opinion on earlier events, it isn't really a "decision", it's a reaction.

So, looks like we agree on this whole thing, causality for the win and all that.... what was the problem after all? Very Happy

Oh, and the quotation hell was NOT fun at all. Geez.

More edit. Since we seem to believe everything is based on cause and effect and the lack of a real choice...how about the beginning of the universe? There was a state in there where there had not yet been any causes or effects. Maybe a real choice is only possible in a state like this. Maybe the first something really had a real choice, not an illusion of choice, and so life was born. The question is, is this first something still capable of making real choices? A real choice is when you can decide to be or do anything you ever desire, so isn't that a definition of God? Does God exist? Whoo, check out the way I got God dragged into this again Razz

There's a hole in the sky through which things can fly.

[Updated on: Mon, 04 September 2006 08:40]

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