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Re: Church of FSM [message #177586 is a reply to message #175124]

Wed, 02 November 2005 21:03

warranto
Messages: 2584
Registered: February 2003
Location: Alberta, Canada

Karma:

General (2 Stars)

a priori or not, by the simple fact that he required to use a visual reference point to prove something, states that the experience was required prior to the proof being usable. He had to know that the hand had 5 fingers before the idea of the hand could be used. In short, a visual representation of some sort was still required to prove it. The "seeing" part if it is, in Kant's instance, "seeing with the mind's eye," so to speak.

hmm.. perhaps restricting this to "seeing" is a bit misleading. "Experience" is the idea that I'm trying to get across, however the seeing aspect of that is the one that seems to get the most credit, so I decided to go with that simplification. Don't take this too broadly in regards to the challenge though. I'm not saying that you can't use ANY experiences to assist, you just can't use them to directly prove the aspect. (example: referencing a dog would constitute something that is being used to represent a visual effect. However, refrencing the fact that every time you've done the equation you have reached that answer, while not a strong argument by itself, is valid. There is no representation of anything to prove a point.)

Keep in mind that I'm not disputing that Kant has proven it, rather he has quite nicely. However, the challenge is still whether it can be done without visual aids.

Experience is the idea of where knowing comes from. The phrase "seeing is believing" is a misnomer of sorts. It should actually state "experiencing is knowing". This is where a priori comes into effect. Whether it is knowable without appeal to a particular experience (keep in mind, the "appeal to an experience" is the important part. It has been experienced, but that experience is not used to prove <whatever>). However, the a priori argument does not apply here as he IS using the experience to prove his argument. He uses his experience of how his hand looks to create a basis for the number "five".

Note: this went through a number of edits before it was submitted. If something is not as coherent as could be, tell me and I'll fix it.

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[Message index]

		Church of FSM By: runewood on Mon, 17 October 2005 16:15
		Re: Church of FSM By: Goztow on Mon, 17 October 2005 23:57
		Re: Church of FSM By: spazbeast on Wed, 19 October 2005 17:07
		Re: Church of FSM By: SuperFlyingEngi on Wed, 19 October 2005 19:31
		Re: Church of FSM By: Jecht on Thu, 20 October 2005 05:49
		Re: Church of FSM By: MrBob on Wed, 19 October 2005 19:47
		Re: Church of FSM By: Javaxcx on Wed, 19 October 2005 20:41
		Re: Church of FSM By: xptek on Wed, 19 October 2005 19:49
		Re: Church of FSM By: Crimson on Thu, 20 October 2005 06:04
		Re: Church of FSM By: Crimson on Thu, 20 October 2005 06:10
		Re: Church of FSM By: warranto on Thu, 20 October 2005 07:39
		Re: Church of FSM By: bandie63 on Mon, 24 October 2005 16:15
		Re: Church of FSM By: Jecht on Thu, 20 October 2005 10:06
		Re: Church of FSM By: runewood on Thu, 20 October 2005 15:43
		Re: Church of FSM By: cheesesoda on Thu, 20 October 2005 17:33
		Re: Church of FSM By: runewood on Thu, 20 October 2005 18:01
		Re: Church of FSM By: cheesesoda on Thu, 20 October 2005 18:15
		Re: Church of FSM By: Jecht on Thu, 20 October 2005 18:33
		Re: Church of FSM By: Sniper_De7 on Thu, 20 October 2005 19:56
		Re: Church of FSM By: runewood on Sun, 23 October 2005 07:37
		Re: Church of FSM By: cheesesoda on Sun, 23 October 2005 07:52
		Re: Church of FSM By: Javaxcx on Sun, 23 October 2005 08:08
		Re: Church of FSM By: mrpirate on Sun, 23 October 2005 10:45
		Re: Church of FSM By: runewood on Sun, 23 October 2005 12:23
		Re: Church of FSM By: Javaxcx on Sun, 23 October 2005 14:29
		Re: Church of FSM By: Oblivion165 on Sun, 23 October 2005 11:08
		Re: Church of FSM By: cheesesoda on Sun, 23 October 2005 13:11
		Re: Church of FSM By: runewood on Sun, 23 October 2005 13:42
		Re: Church of FSM By: cheesesoda on Sun, 23 October 2005 13:51
		Re: Church of FSM By: runewood on Sun, 23 October 2005 15:08
		Re: Church of FSM By: cheesesoda on Sun, 23 October 2005 17:45
		Re: Church of FSM By: warranto on Mon, 24 October 2005 16:41
		Re: Church of FSM By: Renerage on Mon, 24 October 2005 17:06
		Re: Church of FSM By: Javaxcx on Sun, 23 October 2005 15:25
		Re: Church of FSM By: mrpirate on Sun, 23 October 2005 18:09
		Re: Church of FSM By: Crimson on Sun, 23 October 2005 17:19
		Re: Church of FSM By: Jecht on Sun, 23 October 2005 17:20
		Re: Church of FSM By: Oblivion165 on Sun, 23 October 2005 17:48
		Re: Church of FSM By: runewood on Sun, 23 October 2005 18:10
		Re: Church of FSM By: Javaxcx on Sun, 23 October 2005 18:27
		Re: Church of FSM By: Crimson on Sun, 23 October 2005 18:46
		Re: Church of FSM By: Javaxcx on Sun, 23 October 2005 19:06
		Re: Church of FSM By: Crimson on Sun, 23 October 2005 19:37
		Re: Church of FSM By: Javaxcx on Sun, 23 October 2005 19:44
		Re: Church of FSM By: Crimson on Sun, 23 October 2005 20:00
		Re: Church of FSM By: Javaxcx on Sun, 23 October 2005 20:07
		Re: Church of FSM By: Crimson on Sun, 23 October 2005 20:45
		Re: Church of FSM By: Goztow on Sun, 23 October 2005 23:54
		Re: Church of FSM By: Crimson on Mon, 24 October 2005 02:54
		Re: Church of FSM By: Goztow on Mon, 24 October 2005 02:58
		Re: Church of FSM By: Sniper_De7 on Mon, 24 October 2005 07:30
		Re: Church of FSM By: cheesesoda on Mon, 24 October 2005 08:28
		Re: Church of FSM By: runewood on Mon, 24 October 2005 11:40
		Re: Church of FSM By: Javaxcx on Mon, 24 October 2005 11:48
		Re: Church of FSM By: Hydra on Mon, 24 October 2005 16:39
		Re: Church of FSM By: Crimson on Mon, 24 October 2005 19:38
		Re: Church of FSM By: Oblivion165 on Tue, 25 October 2005 03:08
		Re: Church of FSM By: Hydra on Tue, 25 October 2005 19:46
		Re: Church of FSM By: warranto on Mon, 24 October 2005 17:21
		Re: Church of FSM By: Sniper_De7 on Mon, 24 October 2005 17:27
		Re: Church of FSM By: warranto on Mon, 24 October 2005 17:31
		Re: Church of FSM By: Sniper_De7 on Mon, 24 October 2005 17:38
		Re: Church of FSM By: warranto on Mon, 24 October 2005 17:54
		Re: Church of FSM By: Sniper_De7 on Mon, 24 October 2005 17:59
		Re: Church of FSM By: warranto on Mon, 24 October 2005 18:12
		Re: Church of FSM By: Sniper_De7 on Mon, 24 October 2005 18:22
		Re: Church of FSM By: warranto on Mon, 24 October 2005 18:33
		Re: Church of FSM By: Sniper_De7 on Mon, 24 October 2005 18:48
		Re: Church of FSM By: Javaxcx on Mon, 24 October 2005 19:04
		Re: Church of FSM By: warranto on Mon, 24 October 2005 19:07
		Re: Church of FSM By: Goztow on Tue, 25 October 2005 05:34
		Re: Church of FSM By: Oblivion165 on Tue, 25 October 2005 06:26
		Re: Church of FSM By: Javaxcx on Tue, 25 October 2005 10:47
		Re: Church of FSM By: runewood on Tue, 25 October 2005 17:15
		Re: Church of FSM By: Crimson on Wed, 26 October 2005 02:24
		Re: Church of FSM By: Hydra on Wed, 26 October 2005 17:47
		Re: Church of FSM By: MrBob on Wed, 26 October 2005 17:56
		Re: Church of FSM By: Crimson on Thu, 27 October 2005 02:20
		Re: Church of FSM By: warranto on Thu, 27 October 2005 06:50
		Re: Church of FSM By: Javaxcx on Thu, 27 October 2005 11:03
		Re: Church of FSM By: mrpirate on Thu, 27 October 2005 11:10
		Re: Church of FSM By: DaveGMM on Wed, 26 October 2005 10:33
		Re: Church of FSM By: Javaxcx on Wed, 26 October 2005 18:24
		Re: Church of FSM By: MrBob on Thu, 27 October 2005 05:59
		Re: Church of FSM By: Crimson on Fri, 28 October 2005 05:51
		Re: Church of FSM By: MrBob on Fri, 28 October 2005 08:53
		Re: Church of FSM By: warranto on Fri, 28 October 2005 08:57
		Re: Church of FSM By: mrpirate on Thu, 27 October 2005 08:15
		Re: Church of FSM By: warranto on Thu, 27 October 2005 08:28
		Re: Church of FSM By: Javaxcx on Thu, 27 October 2005 10:42
		Re: Church of FSM By: mrpirate on Thu, 27 October 2005 08:59
		Re: Church of FSM By: warranto on Thu, 27 October 2005 12:26
		Re: Church of FSM By: Javaxcx on Thu, 27 October 2005 11:22
		Re: Church of FSM By: NeoSaber on Thu, 27 October 2005 13:10
		Re: Church of FSM By: mrpirate on Thu, 27 October 2005 22:58
		Re: Church of FSM By: PointlessAmbler on Sun, 30 October 2005 00:07
		Re: Church of FSM By: Aircraftkiller on Thu, 27 October 2005 13:53
		Re: Church of FSM By: Oblivion165 on Fri, 28 October 2005 07:24
		Re: Church of FSM By: YSLMuffins on Mon, 31 October 2005 20:59
		Re: Church of FSM By: NukeIt15 on Thu, 27 October 2005 16:41
		Re: Church of FSM By: NeoSaber on Fri, 28 October 2005 00:02
		Re: Church of FSM By: Crimson on Fri, 28 October 2005 05:57
		Re: Church of FSM By: Goztow on Fri, 28 October 2005 06:52
		Re: Church of FSM By: Aircraftkiller on Fri, 28 October 2005 08:13
		Re: Church of FSM By: Crimson on Fri, 28 October 2005 16:42
		Re: Church of FSM By: Aircraftkiller on Fri, 28 October 2005 17:54
		Re: Church of FSM By: Crimson on Sun, 30 October 2005 05:12
		Re: Church of FSM By: NeoSaber on Mon, 31 October 2005 00:02
		Re: Church of FSM By: Javaxcx on Mon, 31 October 2005 06:12
		Re: Church of FSM By: mrpirate on Mon, 31 October 2005 08:27
		Re: Church of FSM By: Jecht on Mon, 31 October 2005 03:38
		Re: Church of FSM By: warranto on Mon, 31 October 2005 09:07
		Re: Church of FSM By: mrpirate on Mon, 31 October 2005 09:17
		Re: Church of FSM By: Crimson on Mon, 31 October 2005 09:58
		Re: Church of FSM By: Javaxcx on Mon, 31 October 2005 14:33
		Re: Church of FSM By: warranto on Mon, 31 October 2005 12:49
		Re: Church of FSM By: Crimson on Mon, 31 October 2005 15:30
		Re: Church of FSM By: cheesesoda on Mon, 31 October 2005 22:24
		Re: Church of FSM By: NeoSaber on Tue, 01 November 2005 11:35
		Re: Church of FSM By: warranto on Mon, 31 October 2005 18:17
		Re: Church of FSM By: Jecht on Mon, 31 October 2005 18:19
		Re: Church of FSM By: Crimson on Mon, 31 October 2005 20:22
		Re: Church of FSM By: warranto on Mon, 31 October 2005 20:34
		Re: Church of FSM By: Parad0x on Tue, 01 November 2005 09:26
		Re: Church of FSM By: warranto on Mon, 31 October 2005 21:57
		Re: Church of FSM By: Crimson on Tue, 01 November 2005 00:29
		Re: Church of FSM By: Hydra on Tue, 01 November 2005 06:38
		Re: Church of FSM By: Crimson on Tue, 01 November 2005 08:15
		Re: Church of FSM By: Aircraftkiller on Tue, 01 November 2005 09:03
		Re: Church of FSM By: cheesesoda on Tue, 01 November 2005 10:21
		Re: Church of FSM By: mrpirate on Tue, 01 November 2005 10:36
		Re: Church of FSM By: cheesesoda on Tue, 01 November 2005 13:38
		Re: Church of FSM By: Parad0x on Tue, 01 November 2005 10:40
		Re: Church of FSM By: Hydra on Tue, 01 November 2005 17:41
		Re: Church of FSM By: Sniper_De7 on Tue, 01 November 2005 17:47
		Re: Church of FSM By: Crimson on Tue, 01 November 2005 23:42
		Re: Church of FSM By: warranto on Wed, 02 November 2005 08:08
		Re: Church of FSM By: Crimson on Wed, 02 November 2005 08:22
		Re: Church of FSM By: mrpirate on Wed, 02 November 2005 10:35
		Re: Church of FSM By: warranto on Wed, 02 November 2005 17:33
		Re: Church of FSM By: mrpirate on Wed, 02 November 2005 17:46
		Re: Church of FSM By: Hydra on Tue, 01 November 2005 23:44
		Re: Church of FSM By: Crimson on Tue, 01 November 2005 23:47
		Re: Church of FSM By: Hydra on Tue, 01 November 2005 23:52
		Re: Church of FSM By: Crimson on Wed, 02 November 2005 00:31
		Re: Church of FSM By: cheesesoda on Wed, 02 November 2005 10:03
		Re: Church of FSM By: NeoSaber on Wed, 02 November 2005 16:20
		Re: Church of FSM By: warranto on Wed, 02 November 2005 10:24
		Re: Church of FSM By: Crimson on Wed, 02 November 2005 13:29
		Re: Church of FSM By: Aircraftkiller on Wed, 02 November 2005 13:37
		Re: Church of FSM By: Crimson on Wed, 02 November 2005 13:49
		Re: Church of FSM By: Aircraftkiller on Thu, 03 November 2005 09:28
		Re: Church of FSM By: Javaxcx on Wed, 02 November 2005 13:58
		Re: Church of FSM By: warranto on Wed, 02 November 2005 17:53
		Re: Church of FSM By: Javaxcx on Wed, 02 November 2005 19:20
		Re: Church of FSM By: mrpirate on Wed, 02 November 2005 17:56
		Re: Church of FSM By: warranto on Wed, 02 November 2005 17:59
		Re: Church of FSM By: warranto on Wed, 02 November 2005 20:03
		Re: Church of FSM By: Javaxcx on Wed, 02 November 2005 20:24
		Re: Church of FSM By: Hydra on Wed, 02 November 2005 20:59
		Re: Church of FSM By: warranto on Wed, 02 November 2005 21:03
		Re: Church of FSM By: Crimson on Thu, 03 November 2005 04:23
		Re: Church of FSM By: NeoSaber on Thu, 03 November 2005 13:56
		Re: Church of FSM By: Crimson on Thu, 03 November 2005 15:12
		Re: Church of FSM By: NeoSaber on Thu, 03 November 2005 16:24
		Re: Church of FSM By: warranto on Thu, 03 November 2005 08:10
		Re: Church of FSM By: Crimson on Thu, 03 November 2005 10:11
		Re: Church of FSM By: warranto on Thu, 03 November 2005 14:42
		Re: Church of FSM By: Crimson on Thu, 03 November 2005 09:56
		Re: Church of FSM By: Aircraftkiller on Thu, 03 November 2005 13:37
		Re: Church of FSM By: warranto on Thu, 03 November 2005 16:20

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