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As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... [message #128817] Fri, 24 December 2004 12:07 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
SuperFlyingEngi is currently offline  SuperFlyingEngi
Messages: 1756
Registered: November 2003
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Crimson

I have told you like 493 times that I don't watch FOX news... I read CNN.com for my news and nothing more.


Sorry for any confusion, but I was referring to the guy above you, who called Iraqis sissies.

Aright, hydra, here you go...

hydra1945

Why do you have "President" in quotation marks? Oh, wait, that's right, since Michael Moore told you to believe that the 2000 election wasn't legitimate, that's the honest-to-God... oh, wait, I'm sorry, I forgot I can't say "God" for fear of offending an atheist... honest-to-Clinton (because he's the closest thing to a "god" you Democrats have) truth, and there is no other way it can possibly be. Lord Moore said it, so it must be so. Bush stole the election, and that's just the way it is.


No, Moore's movie came out quite a while after the election. Quite a while after I had thought this through and seen events unfold. Also, I think you're typecasting Christmas-bashing with Democrats a bit too much here. It's not exactly a stated goal of the DNC. I actually didn't get all that much out of F 9/11. Just another movie.

hydra1945


Now that Lord Moore and the Infallible Church of the ACLU have told you to believe that Bush authorized "torture" (of which, by the way, you have a very pussified definition, but I'll get to that later), it must be true, and there is no contesting it.


Well, you and your "crew" certainly flat out deny any possibility of it and that's the way it must be. Don't pretend that you're leaning over the fence and I'm not.

hydra1945


You obviously never read the Geneva Convention before, or you'd know that terrorists get absolutely no protection under it whatsoever.


I believe warranto touched on this one.

hydra1945


I'm amazed how you have claimed in the past to be more "open-minded" than conservatives, then you imply that all conservatives are white-supremacists. Not very open-minded, is it?
You really showed those racist Republicans how open-minded you are! Great job in showing just how much of a hypocrite you are!


I have claimed to be more open-minded on issues of race? And also, speech never comes out very well if you end two sentences, one right after the other, with "you are!" Just a tidbit of advice.

hydra1945


Proof, ladies and gentlemen, that you can be incredibly book-smart but at the same time have no common sense.


I think you mean booksmart and yet not agree with the ideals of others. Didn't you just earlier imply that you were more open about the ideas of others than I am?

hydra1945


The reason we all say you hate America is you're always willing to blame America first for its problems. Before the war ever started, you said it was America's fault for Saddam being there in the first place. You said it was America's fault for giving weapons to the terrorists to fight the Soviets twenty years ago. You said it was America's fault for pissing the terrorists off in the first place.


You do realize that Reagan did indeed give enormous amounts of arms to the Afghans and pretend to the American people that it wasn't happening? Did I indeed say it was some president's fault that Saddam was in power? Was that back when I was 11 or something?

hydra1945


It's always America that's the belligerent country, isn't it, SuperFlyingLiberalTool? It's never the other side that is actually causing the problem, is it? It's America's fault that more than a thousand soldiers died in Iraq. It can't possibly be the terrorists' fault, even though they were the ones who were setting off the bombs and firing the AK-47s.


America is not the infallible entity you would like it to be. Yes, there are more than a handful of people in Iraq and Afghanistan out to kill our soldiers. Some of it is because of all of the hate propaganda over there. But you have to open your eyes, hydra. Right now, almost everyone in Iraq knows someone personal that we have killed with bombs and such. They take that pretty seriously over there. And we've killed a LOT of civilians. It's not just because they're evil satanists, it's because they have genuine reasons to be mad at the U.S. These things need to be recognized if we're to bring peace back to Iraq, which isn't going to happen at a snap of the fingers.

hydra1945


Oh, wait, Ted Kennedy says it's America's fault for the war. I forgot; Lord Kennedy of the Kennedy dynasty is always right. My apologies.


He's actually getting pretty old. I haven't seen him speak in a while.

hydra1945

That wasn't his point, and you know it.



His "point," if you could call it that, was that I was somehow empowering Arabs to shoot our men. Not many of them are going to hear what I have to say. Are you suggesting that we should cover up everything bad the government does and portray a better picture of ourselves, like in 1984?

hydra1945

No, you don't. You care more about the well-being of the terrorists than you do our own soldiers. This thread is a perfect example.


So I should be more gung-ho and not care about how harshly we deal with soldiers we capture when it's AGAINST OUR LAWS?

hydra1945

Here you are, bitching about how we're keeping the terrorists up all night to obtain information from them that can be vital to the survival of an entire squad of soldiers (I'll delve deeper into this issue later on). If you truly cared about the well-being of our soldiers, you would step back and let the interrogators do their job and get every little bit of information out of the captured terrorists as possible.


Are you really so befuddled in your mind as to believe that all Iraqis are terrorists? Terrorists flew planes into our buildings. Guerilla soldiers are what we're fighting right now in Iraq. And keeping people up all night is one way to describe the torture going on. [See Washington Post editorial]

hydra1945

In case you haven't noticed, WE'RE IN THERE ALREADY, and now that we're in there, WE CAN'T JUST UP AND LEAVE, OR THE IRAQI PEOPLE WOULD BE ROYALLY FUCKED OVER!!!


Why, yes, you're right. However, that doesn't suddenly make this war a just cause, and what do you propose we do from here on? Shoot them all until there's no one to fight us? Well, that is kind of against the point of this humanitarian war the Republicans have turned WMDs into.

hydra1945


We can't leave now that we're in, and if you actually did care about our soldiers, you'd stop being such a hypocrite and let the interrogators do their job. If they have to keep terrorists up all night listening to the fucking Barney song in order to get them to spill their guts about where a terrorist weapons cache is, well Clintondamn it, let them!


So the ends justify the means? We should break our own rules all we want to get information that we can't even prove is truly helpful? One of the discoveries of the 20th century is that people subjected to torture are going to tell the torturers what they want to hear, not what they know. It's not a truly effective technique for coaxing information out of someone.

hydra1945


You're kidding, right? Did you just completely miss the multitudes of protests, both anti- and pro-war, going on around the country when the first tomahawks were landing in Baghdad? You do realize that protests are one way of letting your elected officials know where you stand on a particular issue, right?
If they're willing to go out on a weekend and protest, they're probably motivated enough to write a simple letter to their elected politicians.


There were pro-war rallies? Didn't see many of those on any large scale. And even then, that's still only a very small majority. One of the biggest demonstrations probably ever witnessed in the U.S. was the protest outside the Republican Convention this year, which only made up a quarter of one percent or less of the population.

hydra1945

No, you only believe that the majority of voters voted on moral values because that's what you've been told to believe.

The majority of voters actually voted because of the War on Terror. Nice try pinning the blame on those bastard Christians who still carry some amount of morals, though.


I suppose that'll teach me to ever turn on FOX NEWS, because that's where I heard about all this "voting your morals" business.

hydra1945

You actually think we're torturing people in Iraq? Look at what Saddam did to his own people in the underground rape rooms. That's torture. You're comparing that to sleep deprivation? Where the hell is your common fucking sense?


Yeah, Saddam was a small-scale dictator. One what size did he kill people here? Surely not 100,000 civilians or more, like the number we've probably killed from bombing and fighting, although the President won't release any numbers, because whenever he does they make him look bad. Again, read the Post Editorial I C&P'ed a couple posts up.

hydra1945

Yet, you believed John Kerry when he said we were torturing civilians in Vietnam. icon_rolleyes.gif

Hypocrisy just naturally rolls right off of your fingertips onto your keyboard, doesn't it?


Why, yes, that was a bad war as well. The point I was trying to get across, which I perhaps could have been clearer on, is that the U.S. has laws that we don't torture people. We should not have been in Vietnam, and we should not be in Iraq now. An occupation of a Middle Eastern country is almost a joke.

hydra1945


And you say Fox News isn't a reliable source...


Why, yes, I do. I triangulate a lot of my news from different blog sites. Generally, they're run by Washington insiders who'll print better and more accurate stories than major media. They also run all stories, not pick & choose like FOX news.

hydra1945

I'm assuming you meant to say, "they can kill us...."

Typos aside, this could be one of the most outrageous remarks you have ever made. Are you saying you want our troops to wait to be shot at first before they can get off the first shot? You do realize an American soldier can be killed by that first shot, right?
How far away from reality can your mind possibly be???

And you say you care about our troops....



I'm assuming you meant to say, "Typo aside,"

Typo aside, that was in reponse to a remark that more or less stated that we should kill any opposing people in the way of our arbitrary goals.

You may have missed that one.

hydra1945

The key word here is "implying." You're taking an article, published by a biased source about a ridiculous case, that makes an accusation of the Bush administration and making it into an absolute truth.


The ACLU is suing right now under Freedom of Information for an executive order that leaked documents are pointing straight to an executive order, and they want to see it. I'm not saying this is an absolute truth. I'm posting this as a "here's-where-we-are-know." 'Sides, if you want to read an unbiased source, just read all those documents they have.

hydra1945

For you to even think for one second that what we're doing to interrogate the captured terrorists is even comparable to the torture Saddam forced upon his own people that is plainly exemplified in that report is completely out-of-line and utterly stupid.


Read the Washington Post editorial.

hydra1945

That's funny. You're telling someone to think for himself when not a single original political thought that might run counter to the goals of the Democratic Party. Most Republicans here can give an example of at least one issue on which they disagree with George W. Bush, whereas you, even when directly challenged by myself, have not ever given one single example of any issue with which you disagree with the general stance of the Democratic Party.

It is you who needs to try thinking for yourself once in a while.


But you all almost exclusively disagree with the Republican party on issues of religious zealotism, not actual political issues. If I entirely re-wrote the DNC's stand on everything, it wouldn't be the same, but I agree with their general ideals.

hydra1945

The situation of not having a single independent political thought in your entire body.
See? There you go again, putting "President" in quotation marks again.
Are you so pro-Democrat that you can't stand to see anyone disagree with any holy decree Pope Al Gore makes about George W. Bush?


I don't think Al Gore ever said the election was stolen.

hydra1945

Ah, slandering him while accusing him of slandering you, are we?

Isn't that something a hypocrite would do, generally?


I don't think that statement is entirely comperable to him calling me a "fuck."

hydra1945

This all goes back to the ACLU's, and your, definition of "torture." Like I said earlier, you have a very pussified definition. You actually believe keeping the terrorists up all night listening to the Barney song is actually torture. What the hell do you want us to do, put lounge chairs in their jail cells and feed them fucking filet mignon for dinner each day? Do you think that will convince any one of them to talk?
If we can't make them (gasp!) uncomfortable, how the hell do you expect us to get any information out of them? Ask them nicely? Get down on our knees and beg for the information? These were fuckers who, just a day ago, were trying to kill us! How can you not understand that these terrorists could hold vital information to weapons cache locations, locations of terrorist leaders, and anything else that might prevent the loss of an American soldier's life?
Why the hell aren't you willing to make these bastards "uncomfortable" in order to get them to spill their guts with information?

You want torture? Go back two years to one of those torture rooms in Baghdad described in that USA Today article. THAT is torture. This staying up all night bullshit? Not even comparable.

Just out of curiosity, where was your outrage when Ali Kaddam Kardom was being beaten, refrigerated naked and held underground for being a Shiite?


When was that ever the ACLU's definiton of torture? Again, read the Washington Post editorial and LOOK at the ACLU documents! Those will outline what kinds of torture they think were authorized.

Yes, Saddam was a minor league dictator, but the U.S. is not an international police force. And we went in claiming an imminent threat from WMDs, which was a bald-faced lie. Then you all tried to change the pretext to a humanitarian issue, because otherwise Georgio would look bad.

NOTE: Okay, this thing is too long. I'm going to pick and choose major topics out of your mile-long post.

Hydra1945

Secondly, if they hadn't hated us for our freedoms and other "stupid" reasons like that, they wouldn't have flown two jets into the World Trade Center twin towers


Either that or because we killed those terrorist's families when we shelled the Bekaa Valley with the U.S.S. North Carolina's battle cannons.

These issues aren't one-sided. You have to look at them from everyone's points of view.

hydra1945

When you substitute short words with longer words in a failed effort to make yourself appear more intelligent as a result of your massive superiority complex.


I still don't engage in the use of a thesaurus.

hydra1945

Stop talking before you embarass yourself more.

What, exactly, was all that, um, whatchacallit, oh yeah, sarin stuff the Polish troops found a few months ago? Isn't that sarin stuff a weapon of mass destruction? Didn't they also just recently find some more of that stuff in the trunk of a car in Fallujah?

Oh, wait, that must've been a new flavor of jell-o or something. Silly me. I should tell my mom to buy me some sarin jell-o next time she's at the grocery store.


Didn't the Duelfer report say that there were no Weapons of Mass Destruction? The Bushies have been so lax about border control that it's a small wonder there are nerve agents in the country now. Found them a few months ago? That doesn't mean anything. It's been so long since we've invaded that these could have come from any neighbouring country.

hydra1945

You already do, unless you don't consider nearly half of both houses of Congress to be considered leaders.


Democrats in Congress aren't exactly the leaders right now. And if they had gotten into this Iraq mess, I would have been just as mad. You don't notice many Democrats getting into mass bloodshed battles, do you? [Come on, say something about Clinton.]

hydra1945


Who the hell is trying to censor you? He wasn't saying you couldn't disagree with the actions taken by the head-of-state, just that in your blind hatred of every little thing done by George W. Bush, you begin hating your own country, which is the opposite of patriotism.


There's actually a bill on the floor of the Congress right now trying to ban liberal viewpoints on the internet.

hydra1945

Don't make me laugh. The same can be said of you.


Kindly don't compare me to cowmisfit, or whoever I was talking to there.

hydra1945

Be sure to ask Santa for some common sense this Christmas (that is, if you celebrate Christmas; I wouldn't be surprised if you became an atheist just to make sure you don't offend anyone by celebrating the birth of your lord and saviour, Jesus Christ (well, to normal people it'd be Jesus Christ; to you, it'd be Bill Clinton)).


Stop typecasting Democrats with a couple ACLU suits.

hydra1945

How do you know there's an executive order when there is no evidence to prove the existence of one?


Because so many leaked FBI documents point to one. And right now, the ACLU is suing to see if there is one. Time will tell.

hydra1945


No one is saying you can't question the actions of the President; you just happen to disagree with every little thing he does, and your arguments are making us believe you hate your own country since you're so quick to blame America first in any foreign conflict.


No, conflicts that stop genocides are pretty good, like if Bush invaded Sudan to stop what's going on in there. That would be pretty good. And also, the invasion of Afghanstan was most certainly a good move, although elections aren't going very well over there.

hydra1945

Typical. You name four Republican presidents and point out one bad quality in each. Nevermind that Nixon negotiated the end of the Vietnam War. Nevermind that Reagan brought about the fall of the Berlin Wall. Nevermind that Bush Sr. oversaw the fall of the Soviet Union (though it began during Reagan's term).
And, of course, nevermind that Bush Jr. freed at least 50 million Iraqis and Afghanis and is leading the War on Terror in the best way possible.


Nixon was too early for me to talk about the Vietnam war.
Reagan and Bush Sr. didn't do much to end the Soviet Union, it collapsed from its own internal problems with its economic system.
Bush Jr. is fighting the war on Iraq in a terrible way, namely putting soldiers in Iraq and telling them to shoot people who shoot at them. There hasn't been much news from Afghanistan.

hydra1945

You know nothing about economics. Stop acting like you do.


Gold is at 434+ right now and the Euro is worth 1.3 dollars. Those are horrible signs of inflation.

hydra1945

Neither does acting like you're better than everyone else.

My Clinton, I have never seen someone with a superiority complex as big as yours.


Tell me, how am I supposed to state a differing opinion from someone else and yet not act better than them, in your eyes?

hydra1945

We use the electoral college to elect our presidents. The popular vote is literally meaningless. Crimson just mentioned the popular vote to make a point that you obviously missed.


Crimson didn't make much sense when she touched on the popular vote. I didn't quite understand what she meant, and I'm not sure you did, either.

When did I say we elected officials based on the popular vote? No, I really didn't.

Well, there you go. After the bold, the rest of those points I had already touched on or where too stupid for me to care about, statements like "You are such a tool!"

Have fun.

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- Theodore Roosevelt (1918)

"The danger to political dissent is acute where the Government attempts to act under so vague a concept as the power to protect "domestic security." Given the difficulty of defining the domestic security interest, the danger of abuse in acting to protect that interest becomes apparent. --U.S. Supreme Court decision (407 U.S. 297 (1972)

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