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As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... [message #128754]

Fri, 24 December 2004 06:42

SuperFlyingEngi
Messages: 1756
Registered: November 2003

Karma:

General (1 Star)

hydra1945

Ah, okay, so now you're implying that I have no life? Just because I took about an hour and a half out of my life to write that to put you where you belong?

No, I'm not implying that you're a loser at all. I'm just saying that I've been busy working on film projects and I need to hurry up.

Crimson

It wouldn't be the first time he's changed the subject when he can't win. It's either that or "I need to talk to my dad some more."

Oh, honestly. I haven't changed the subject. It's not like there is much more to be debated here anyways, it's come down to a "You're a sucky American!" What needs to be done is more or less to wait and see what the ACLU finds. And Crimson, I've only ever said that I need to have a word with my dad twice, on issues I don't entirely comprehend. Would you prefer that I just make things up on the fly? And if I truly did agree that torturing soldiers outside the U.S. was ok, yeah, I probably would side with you all.

Also,

The Washington Post

War Crimes

Thursday, December 23, 2004; Page A22

THANKS TO a lawsuit by the American Civil Liberties Union and other human rights groups, thousands of pages of government documents released this month have confirmed some of the painful truths about the abuse of foreign detainees by the U.S. military and the CIA -- truths the Bush administration implacably has refused to acknowledge. Since the publication of photographs of abuse at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison in the spring the administration's whitewashers -- led by Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld -- have contended that the crimes were carried out by a few low-ranking reservists, that they were limited to the night shift during a few chaotic months at Abu Ghraib in 2003, that they were unrelated to the interrogation of prisoners and that no torture occurred at the Guantanamo Bay prison where hundreds of terrorism suspects are held. The new documents establish beyond any doubt that every part of this cover story is false.

Though they represent only part of the record that lies in government files, the documents show that the abuse of prisoners was already occurring at Guantanamo in 2002 and continued in Iraq even after the outcry over the Abu Ghraib photographs. FBI agents reported in internal e-mails and memos about systematic abuses by military interrogators at the base in Cuba, including beatings, chokings, prolonged sleep deprivation and humiliations such as being wrapped in an Israeli flag. "On a couple of occasions I entered interview rooms to find a detainee chained hand and foot in a fetal position to the floor, with no chair, food or water," an unidentified FBI agent wrote on Aug. 2, 2004. "Most times they had urinated or defecated on themselves, and had been left there for 18 to 24 hours or more." Two defense intelligence officials reported seeing prisoners severely beaten in Baghdad by members of a special operations unit, Task Force 6-26, in June. When they protested they were threatened and pictures they took were confiscated.

Other documents detail abuses by Marines in Iraq, including mock executions and the torture of detainees by burning and electric shock. Several dozen detainees have died in U.S. custody. In many cases, Army investigations of these crimes were shockingly shoddy: Officials lost records, failed to conduct autopsies after suspicious deaths and allowed evidence to be contaminated. Soldiers found to have committed war crimes were excused with noncriminal punishments. The summary of one suspicious death of a detainee at the Abu Ghraib prison reads: "No crime scene exam was conducted, no autopsy conducted, no copy of medical file obtained for investigation because copy machine broken in medical office."

Some of the abuses can be attributed to lack of discipline in some military units -- though the broad extent of the problem suggests, at best, that senior commanders made little effort to prevent or control wrongdoing. But the documents also confirm that interrogators at Guantanamo believed they were following orders from Mr. Rumsfeld. One FBI agent reported on May 10 about a conversation he had with Guantanamo's commander, Maj. Gen. Geoffrey D. Miller, who defended the use of interrogation techniques the FBI regarded as illegal on the grounds that the military "has their marching orders from the Sec Def." Gen. Miller has testified under oath that dogs were never used to intimidate prisoners at Guantanamo, as authorized by Mr. Rumsfeld in December 2002; the FBI papers show otherwise.

The Bush administration refused to release these records to the human rights groups under the Freedom of Information Act until it was ordered to do so by a judge. Now it has responded to their publication with bland promises by spokesmen that any wrongdoing will be investigated. The record of the past few months suggests that the administration will neither hold any senior official accountable nor change the policies that have produced this shameful record. Congress, too, has abdicated its responsibility under its Republican leadership: It has been nearly four months since the last hearing on prisoner abuse. Perhaps intervention by the courts will eventually stem the violations of human rights that appear to be ongoing in Guantanamo, Iraq and Afghanistan. For now the appalling truth is that there has been no remedy for the documented torture and killing of foreign prisoners by this American government.

EDIT: Once I get time, hydra, I'll get back to your post.

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- Theodore Roosevelt (1918)

"The danger to political dissent is acute where the Government attempts to act under so vague a concept as the power to protect "domestic security." Given the difficulty of defining the domestic security interest, the danger of abuse in acting to protect that interest becomes apparent. --U.S. Supreme Court decision (407 U.S. 297 (1972)

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[Message index]

		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: SuperFlyingEngi on Mon, 20 December 2004 19:37
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: cheesesoda on Mon, 20 December 2004 19:42
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: cowmisfit on Mon, 20 December 2004 19:45
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: SuperFlyingEngi on Mon, 20 December 2004 19:47
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: cowmisfit on Mon, 20 December 2004 19:53
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: cheesesoda on Mon, 20 December 2004 19:54
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: cowmisfit on Mon, 20 December 2004 19:57
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: MilkyLep on Mon, 20 December 2004 19:59
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: DarkDemin on Mon, 20 December 2004 20:02
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: cowmisfit on Mon, 20 December 2004 20:04
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: SuperFlyingEngi on Mon, 20 December 2004 20:06
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: cheesesoda on Mon, 20 December 2004 20:08
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: SuperFlyingEngi on Mon, 20 December 2004 20:11
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: MilkyLep on Mon, 20 December 2004 20:16
		Re: As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: icedog90 on Mon, 20 December 2004 20:17
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: cowmisfit on Mon, 20 December 2004 20:17
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: cheesesoda on Mon, 20 December 2004 20:17
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: SuperFlyingEngi on Mon, 20 December 2004 20:21
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: cowmisfit on Mon, 20 December 2004 20:23
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: cheesesoda on Mon, 20 December 2004 20:24
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: MilkyLep on Mon, 20 December 2004 20:26
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: icedog90 on Mon, 20 December 2004 20:27
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: SuperFlyingEngi on Mon, 20 December 2004 20:28
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: cowmisfit on Mon, 20 December 2004 20:29
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: cheesesoda on Mon, 20 December 2004 20:29
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: icedog90 on Mon, 20 December 2004 20:33
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: SuperFlyingEngi on Mon, 20 December 2004 20:39
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: warranto on Mon, 20 December 2004 20:40
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: cheesesoda on Mon, 20 December 2004 20:41
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: SuperFlyingEngi on Mon, 20 December 2004 20:42
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: DarkDemin on Mon, 20 December 2004 20:42
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: icedog90 on Mon, 20 December 2004 20:44
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: cheesesoda on Mon, 20 December 2004 20:45
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: warranto on Mon, 20 December 2004 20:47
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: SuperFlyingEngi on Mon, 20 December 2004 20:48
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: cheesesoda on Mon, 20 December 2004 20:48
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: warranto on Mon, 20 December 2004 20:52
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: xptek on Mon, 20 December 2004 21:07
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: NeoSaber on Mon, 20 December 2004 21:09
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: warranto on Mon, 20 December 2004 21:13
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Jecht on Mon, 20 December 2004 21:20
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: SuperFlyingEngi on Tue, 21 December 2004 12:48
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Javaxcx on Tue, 21 December 2004 13:27
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: rm5248 on Tue, 21 December 2004 13:42
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: cheesesoda on Tue, 21 December 2004 13:50
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: NeoSaber on Tue, 21 December 2004 14:11
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: glyde51 on Tue, 21 December 2004 14:12
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Crimson on Wed, 22 December 2004 00:43
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Jecht on Wed, 22 December 2004 01:50
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: SuperFlyingEngi on Wed, 22 December 2004 07:35
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Jecht on Wed, 22 December 2004 08:44
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Crimson on Wed, 22 December 2004 09:48
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: SuperFlyingEngi on Wed, 22 December 2004 09:55
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: SuperFlyingEngi on Wed, 22 December 2004 10:02
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: NeoSaber on Wed, 22 December 2004 11:29
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: cheesesoda on Wed, 22 December 2004 15:15
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: DarkDemin on Wed, 22 December 2004 15:26
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Jaspah on Wed, 22 December 2004 15:54
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Crimson on Thu, 23 December 2004 01:37
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Hydra on Thu, 23 December 2004 02:00
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Crimson on Thu, 23 December 2004 03:47
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Jecht on Thu, 23 December 2004 06:14
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: warranto on Thu, 23 December 2004 07:34
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Javaxcx on Thu, 23 December 2004 07:38
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Jecht on Thu, 23 December 2004 08:25
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Hydra on Thu, 23 December 2004 11:31
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Jecht on Thu, 23 December 2004 12:37
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: xptek on Thu, 23 December 2004 13:12
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: warranto on Thu, 23 December 2004 16:09
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Jecht on Thu, 23 December 2004 16:23
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: warranto on Thu, 23 December 2004 16:31
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Vitaminous on Thu, 23 December 2004 16:40
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Jecht on Thu, 23 December 2004 16:48
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: cowmisfit on Thu, 23 December 2004 17:48
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: SuperFlyingEngi on Thu, 23 December 2004 18:03
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: cowmisfit on Thu, 23 December 2004 19:02
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Hydra on Thu, 23 December 2004 23:08
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Crimson on Fri, 24 December 2004 01:52
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: SuperFlyingEngi on Fri, 24 December 2004 06:42
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: cowmisfit on Fri, 24 December 2004 07:15
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Jecht on Fri, 24 December 2004 07:28
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: SuperFlyingEngi on Fri, 24 December 2004 12:07
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: xptek on Fri, 24 December 2004 12:27
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Javaxcx on Fri, 24 December 2004 13:05
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: xptek on Fri, 24 December 2004 15:16
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Crimson on Fri, 24 December 2004 16:36
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: NukeIt15 on Mon, 27 December 2004 17:32
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Hydra on Thu, 30 December 2004 04:16
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Javaxcx on Thu, 30 December 2004 10:40
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: warranto on Thu, 30 December 2004 11:45
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Javaxcx on Thu, 30 December 2004 12:07
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: warranto on Thu, 30 December 2004 13:02
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Javaxcx on Thu, 30 December 2004 13:10
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Deathgod on Thu, 30 December 2004 13:19
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: NukeIt15 on Thu, 30 December 2004 15:14
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Javaxcx on Thu, 30 December 2004 15:33
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Jecht on Thu, 30 December 2004 18:09
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Javaxcx on Thu, 30 December 2004 18:51
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: warranto on Thu, 30 December 2004 21:38
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: glyde51 on Thu, 30 December 2004 21:40
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Javaxcx on Thu, 30 December 2004 21:51
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Spoony_old on Fri, 31 December 2004 06:58
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: cowmisfit on Fri, 31 December 2004 08:15
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Jecht on Fri, 31 December 2004 13:37
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Javaxcx on Fri, 31 December 2004 13:49
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Fabian on Fri, 31 December 2004 14:09
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Crimson on Fri, 31 December 2004 14:41
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Fabian on Fri, 31 December 2004 15:25
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Jecht on Sat, 01 January 2005 11:19
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Javaxcx on Sat, 01 January 2005 12:11
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Spoony_old on Sat, 01 January 2005 12:16
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: cowmisfit on Sat, 01 January 2005 13:21
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: warranto on Sat, 01 January 2005 14:04
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Spoony_old on Sat, 01 January 2005 15:08
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Javaxcx on Sat, 01 January 2005 15:23
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Spoony_old on Sat, 01 January 2005 19:00
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Javaxcx on Sat, 01 January 2005 19:57
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Spoony_old on Sat, 01 January 2005 20:06
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Jecht on Sat, 01 January 2005 21:01
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Javaxcx on Sat, 01 January 2005 21:21
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Jecht on Sat, 01 January 2005 22:41
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: msgtpain on Sat, 01 January 2005 22:47
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Javaxcx on Sat, 01 January 2005 22:54
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Jecht on Sat, 01 January 2005 22:59
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Javaxcx on Sat, 01 January 2005 22:59
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Javaxcx on Sat, 01 January 2005 23:02
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Jecht on Sat, 01 January 2005 23:10
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Javaxcx on Sat, 01 January 2005 23:16
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: ----- on Sat, 01 January 2005 23:38
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: U927 on Sat, 01 January 2005 23:41
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: ----- on Sat, 01 January 2005 23:44
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Spoony_old on Sun, 02 January 2005 06:00
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Jecht on Sun, 02 January 2005 08:09
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: cowmisfit on Sun, 02 January 2005 08:28
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Fabian on Sun, 02 January 2005 08:50
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Javaxcx on Sun, 02 January 2005 09:19
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Spoony_old on Sun, 02 January 2005 09:32
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Jecht on Sun, 02 January 2005 11:08
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Javaxcx on Sun, 02 January 2005 11:26
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Jecht on Sun, 02 January 2005 11:43
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Javaxcx on Sun, 02 January 2005 12:24
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: DaveGMM on Sun, 02 January 2005 12:50
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: warranto on Sun, 02 January 2005 13:58
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: cowmisfit on Sun, 02 January 2005 14:06
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Spoony_old on Sun, 02 January 2005 14:21
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: cowmisfit on Sun, 02 January 2005 14:32
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Javaxcx on Sun, 02 January 2005 14:33
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: warranto on Sun, 02 January 2005 14:41
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: DaveGMM on Sun, 02 January 2005 14:53
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Spoony_old on Sun, 02 January 2005 15:24
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: cheesesoda on Sun, 02 January 2005 15:28
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: cowmisfit on Sun, 02 January 2005 15:39
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: SuperFlyingEngi on Sun, 02 January 2005 15:42
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Spoony_old on Sun, 02 January 2005 15:43
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: warranto on Sun, 02 January 2005 15:51
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: U927 on Sun, 02 January 2005 15:53
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: warranto on Sun, 02 January 2005 15:58
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: cowmisfit on Sun, 02 January 2005 16:08
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: SuperFlyingEngi on Sun, 02 January 2005 16:09
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: DaveGMM on Sun, 02 January 2005 16:11
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: cowmisfit on Sun, 02 January 2005 16:15
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Jecht on Sun, 02 January 2005 16:15
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: cowmisfit on Sun, 02 January 2005 16:16
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: DaveGMM on Sun, 02 January 2005 16:24
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Jecht on Sun, 02 January 2005 16:26
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Javaxcx on Sun, 02 January 2005 16:28
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: DaveGMM on Sun, 02 January 2005 16:29
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Jecht on Sun, 02 January 2005 16:33
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: DaveGMM on Sun, 02 January 2005 16:34
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Jecht on Sun, 02 January 2005 16:37
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Spoony_old on Sun, 02 January 2005 16:48
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: U927 on Sun, 02 January 2005 16:48
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Fabian on Sun, 02 January 2005 17:05
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: warranto on Sun, 02 January 2005 17:25
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Ryan3k on Sun, 02 January 2005 17:41
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Spoony_old on Sun, 02 January 2005 17:49
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: DaveGMM on Sun, 02 January 2005 17:49
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Jecht on Sun, 02 January 2005 20:17
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Crimson on Sun, 02 January 2005 22:04
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Vitaminous on Sun, 02 January 2005 22:20
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Fabian on Sun, 02 January 2005 22:43
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Hydra on Sun, 02 January 2005 23:16
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Spoony_old on Mon, 03 January 2005 01:35
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Doitle on Mon, 03 January 2005 01:52
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Crimson on Mon, 03 January 2005 02:54
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: cowmisfit on Mon, 03 January 2005 04:37
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Spoony_old on Mon, 03 January 2005 04:44
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: cowmisfit on Mon, 03 January 2005 04:58
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Jecht on Mon, 03 January 2005 05:29
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Spoony_old on Mon, 03 January 2005 06:00
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: DaveGMM on Mon, 03 January 2005 06:04
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Spoony_old on Mon, 03 January 2005 06:07
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Jecht on Mon, 03 January 2005 07:14
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Spoony_old on Mon, 03 January 2005 09:07
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: cheesesoda on Mon, 03 January 2005 09:19
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Spoony_old on Mon, 03 January 2005 10:04
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: DaveGMM on Mon, 03 January 2005 10:04
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: cheesesoda on Mon, 03 January 2005 10:09
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: warranto on Mon, 03 January 2005 11:13
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: cheesesoda on Mon, 03 January 2005 11:23
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: DaveGMM on Mon, 03 January 2005 11:23
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: cheesesoda on Mon, 03 January 2005 11:26
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: DaveGMM on Mon, 03 January 2005 11:30
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: cheesesoda on Mon, 03 January 2005 11:32
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Spoony_old on Mon, 03 January 2005 11:41
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: cheesesoda on Mon, 03 January 2005 11:50
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Fabian on Mon, 03 January 2005 12:02
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: cheesesoda on Mon, 03 January 2005 12:04
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Jecht on Mon, 03 January 2005 12:11
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Spoony_old on Mon, 03 January 2005 12:15
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Fabian on Mon, 03 January 2005 12:19
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: cheesesoda on Mon, 03 January 2005 12:25
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: warranto on Mon, 03 January 2005 12:27
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: cheesesoda on Mon, 03 January 2005 12:32
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Fabian on Mon, 03 January 2005 12:35
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: cheesesoda on Mon, 03 January 2005 12:39
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: warranto on Mon, 03 January 2005 12:40
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: warranto on Mon, 03 January 2005 12:42
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: cheesesoda on Mon, 03 January 2005 12:43
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Fabian on Mon, 03 January 2005 12:46
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: cowmisfit on Mon, 03 January 2005 13:39
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Vitaminous on Mon, 03 January 2005 14:23
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: warranto on Mon, 03 January 2005 14:59
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Spoony_old on Mon, 03 January 2005 16:34
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: cowmisfit on Mon, 03 January 2005 16:49
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Crimson on Mon, 03 January 2005 17:03
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Spoony_old on Mon, 03 January 2005 17:08
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: cowmisfit on Mon, 03 January 2005 17:19
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: DaveGMM on Mon, 03 January 2005 17:24
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Jecht on Mon, 03 January 2005 17:37
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Spoony_old on Mon, 03 January 2005 17:42
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: cowmisfit on Mon, 03 January 2005 18:26
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Jecht on Mon, 03 January 2005 18:57
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: cowmisfit on Mon, 03 January 2005 19:59
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: warranto on Mon, 03 January 2005 22:50
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Jecht on Mon, 03 January 2005 23:50
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: DaveGMM on Tue, 04 January 2005 00:43
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Jecht on Tue, 04 January 2005 01:01
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: DaveGMM on Tue, 04 January 2005 01:09
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: warranto on Tue, 04 January 2005 01:18
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: cowmisfit on Tue, 04 January 2005 04:58
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Spoony_old on Tue, 04 January 2005 05:30
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Jecht on Tue, 04 January 2005 08:01
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Spoony_old on Tue, 04 January 2005 08:18
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: warranto on Tue, 04 January 2005 12:03
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: DaveGMM on Tue, 04 January 2005 12:03
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: cowmisfit on Tue, 04 January 2005 13:31
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Javaxcx on Tue, 04 January 2005 13:44
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: warranto on Tue, 04 January 2005 14:22
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Jecht on Tue, 04 January 2005 14:34
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Javaxcx on Tue, 04 January 2005 14:40
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Spoony_old on Tue, 04 January 2005 14:53
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Jecht on Tue, 04 January 2005 14:57
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: DaveGMM on Tue, 04 January 2005 15:03
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: DaveGMM on Tue, 04 January 2005 15:04
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Spoony_old on Tue, 04 January 2005 15:06
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Jecht on Tue, 04 January 2005 15:07
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: DaveGMM on Tue, 04 January 2005 16:01
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Jecht on Tue, 04 January 2005 16:45
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: DaveGMM on Tue, 04 January 2005 17:00
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Jecht on Tue, 04 January 2005 17:17
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: cowmisfit on Tue, 04 January 2005 17:49
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: warranto on Tue, 04 January 2005 18:16
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: splnwezel on Tue, 04 January 2005 20:51
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Fabian on Tue, 04 January 2005 21:13
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Hydra on Tue, 04 January 2005 22:01
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Javaxcx on Wed, 05 January 2005 13:28
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Hydra on Wed, 05 January 2005 14:35
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Fabian on Wed, 05 January 2005 15:52
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Jecht on Wed, 05 January 2005 17:58
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Javaxcx on Wed, 05 January 2005 18:41
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Jecht on Wed, 05 January 2005 18:58
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Javaxcx on Wed, 05 January 2005 19:21
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Jecht on Wed, 05 January 2005 20:42
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Javaxcx on Wed, 05 January 2005 21:02
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Doitle on Wed, 05 January 2005 22:08
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Crimson on Thu, 06 January 2005 15:44
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Fabian on Thu, 06 January 2005 15:52
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Aircraftkiller on Thu, 06 January 2005 17:02
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Fabian on Thu, 06 January 2005 17:05
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Jecht on Thu, 06 January 2005 18:12
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Fabian on Thu, 06 January 2005 18:46
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Jecht on Fri, 07 January 2005 01:50
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Fabian on Fri, 07 January 2005 14:22
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Cassie on Fri, 07 January 2005 17:09
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Aircraftkiller on Sat, 08 January 2005 02:01
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Aircraftkiller on Sat, 08 January 2005 02:04
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Crimson on Sat, 08 January 2005 03:38
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Fabian on Sat, 08 January 2005 06:29
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: SuperFlyingEngi on Sat, 08 January 2005 09:29
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Cassie on Sat, 08 January 2005 19:31
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Hydra on Sat, 08 January 2005 23:52
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Jecht on Sat, 08 January 2005 23:53
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: prox on Sun, 09 January 2005 08:18
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Fabian on Sun, 09 January 2005 12:19
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Jecht on Sun, 09 January 2005 19:26
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Fabian on Sun, 09 January 2005 20:06
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Nodbugger on Sun, 09 January 2005 21:47
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: cheesesoda on Sun, 09 January 2005 22:03
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Jecht on Mon, 10 January 2005 03:47
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Spoony_old on Mon, 10 January 2005 05:01
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Jecht on Mon, 10 January 2005 10:29
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Spoony_old on Mon, 10 January 2005 10:33
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Fabian on Mon, 10 January 2005 15:01
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Jecht on Mon, 10 January 2005 19:40
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: glyde51 on Mon, 10 January 2005 19:43
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Fabian on Mon, 10 January 2005 20:23
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Hydra on Wed, 12 January 2005 09:38
		As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around... By: Fabian on Thu, 13 January 2005 19:27

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