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Havoc\Sakura on Ramjet Rifles - Final Word [message #128216] Tue, 21 December 2004 15:57 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
m1a1_abrams is currently offline  m1a1_abrams
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Registered: August 2003
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PiMuRho

I'd say that an MRLS rush without any kind of support units is narrow tactical thinking.


Actually, I'd agree with you on that most of the time. A balanced attack force of different unit types would be preferable in most situations, because an alert team could easily deal with a group of unsupported MRLS. There would be merit to the tactic in certain situations though, either as a suprise tactic that the enemy doesn't expect and thus isn't prepared to defend against... or you may have noticed an abundance of certain units on the enemy team which would be ineffective against the unit in question, so you choose to field a combined force of nothing but that unit. My point was that the gameplay would be more varied if certain tactics that rarely work now suddenly because feasible. I think an MRLS rush would become much, much more feasible than it is currently if Ramjets didn't do that absurd amount of damage to light armour.

A problem I have with the flying maps in particular (I'm saying this by way of example as to why the snipers, and the aircraft for that matter, limit the tactics available on certain maps), is that the artillery units tend to be unusuable against anything but a novice enemy team during the period that both bases are intact. Considering that these maps are the only opportunity players have to fly, you're bound to have a preponderance of aircraft. They also happen to be particularly popular maps with people who like to snipe. I don't want to go into the particulars of why an excess of both snipers and aircraft will make the artillery units almost impossible to use effectively and I'm sure I don't have to explain it. I can understand and agree with the line of thinking that if the enemy team is focusing on a particular unit (like snipers), then it's not the best tactical thinking to focus your team on the units most vunerable to their units. Unfortunately, even a small number of snipers can render light vehicles unusable, and one or two snipers on a team isn't an example of focusing on sniping in particular... it's a regular occurance in practically any game of C&C Renegade. The usual counter to this idea is that you should halt their production of the higher infantry classes if you want to use light vehicles, but I really don't think that any of the units in the game should be unusable in "all out war" or a full technology level... whatever you want to call it (the state during which you can purchase any unit that you can afford). Like you say, if the enemy is massing a certain unit type then it's your own fault if you don't take that into account before purchasing, but if the different units are fairly well distributed between both teams, you really should be able to create a way to use any of the units in the game surely?

Quote:

That's a matter of perspective. Once Ramjets are able to come into the field, everything short a Mammoth tank can come into the field as well. The redundancy of those units you've mentioned is quite universal when 1000 credits are given to each character. Does the Ramjet contribute to it? Of course, it does. But does that mean it is to blame for it? Absolutely not. If you apply some strategy to the situation mapwide, you would probably take the APC if you had the funds. If you didn't, you can do any number of things while you await funds. However, if the refinery is lost because of the incompetence of your team, that cannot possibly be the Ramjet's fault, can it?


It's almost solely the fault of the Ramjet that Buggies/Humvees and Transport Helicopters become unusable mid-game onwards. Any other threats you can avoid (providing that the enemy isn't massing anything in particular), by staying out of range, using your speed in the case of the first two, and only attacking when you feel you have a good chance of coming out in one piece. You just can't avoid a Ramjet with those units. Anyone who has tried will attest to this. If there is but one Ramjet user on the map and he's looking in the direction of your Buggy, you're toast. It's sometimes possible to kill the sniper before he kills you, if he really isn't paying attention, but given the range of the weapon and the speed with which a Ramjet will destroy a Buggy, you're nearly always dead before you reach him. All of the maps with the exception of Islands feature wide open areas that your light armoured vehicle absolutely has to traverse if you want to do anything useful. The snipers are always watching these wide open areas and as soon as you enter it you're taking fire. Snipers will position themselves as far away as possible from the front lines so your chances of reaching them before your vehicle is chipped apart by the blue beams is virtually nil. Like I said, no units should be unusable in the event of the enemy team fielding only a small number of counter-units.

Quote:

Let me put a spin on this for you. You mentioned a pack of aircraft to do the work. Why not utilize THAT strategy now? While one Ramjet can certainly take down an aircraft, many aircraft going in many different directions would result in your strike going through and your sniper being left out in the field. Now, if you wanted to do some kind of one man assault on another base and you can afford an aircraft, but you know there are snipers, rethink the strategy and grab an APC or tank. Remember, it's not the sniper's fault you chose an aircraft.


You need more aircraft than there are snipers in that situation if we're to assume that both teams are equally skilled, because snipers can dispose of more aircraft in a given period of time that aircraft can dispose of snipers. This is taking into account the distance the aircraft will need to travel to get in firing range, as opposed to the sniper's almost limitless range on any standard map. The Ramjet is simply overpowered when it comes to fighting aircraft, just as the aircraft are overpowered when it comes to fighting anything other than a 1000 credit sniper.

Quote:

(about units only being able to shoot at grounded aircraft) Given the engine, I don't think this is possible anyway.


That's what I meant. I can't see how you could distinguish between shooting at a flying Orca and an Orca sitting on the Helipad. All ground units would have to be able to damage aircraft, just so they could still damage them when they're aren't flying. Obviously the idea that you could have difficulty hitting a fast moving helicopter doesn't apply if the unit is sitting still on the ground. Luckily, it would probably help with balancing the game, so it's not a big deal.

Quote:

I think you would find that if infantry could do the kind of damage to buildings as in CNC TD, the game would be far less enjoyable then it is now.


Well that's the way infantry work in RenAlert and I always enjoyed playing it. I didn't like the idea at first because I was so used to the way Renegade plays, but after playing it for a while I realised that the potential for infantry to do signigicant damage to vehicles wasn't making them too powerful. RenAlert infantry are more like the infantry in the RTS games, in that even the basic soldier can theoretically destroy any vehicle or structure given time, but they're incredibly weak so they tend to die before they can do much damage. If anything, it's more of an incentive to actually use the basic troop types when you can't purchase anything else, rather than just give up on the game and resign yourself to losing or not being able to help your team. A group of basic infantry could finish off a base if they work well together, so a losing team is never totally defeated until their last structure is destroyed. It's easily counterable though, if the other team is at least half-awake at the time.

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