Home » Tiberian Technologies / Blackhand Studios » Other Products » Unit Balance
| Unit Balance [message #87890] |
Sun, 16 May 2004 09:53   |
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SuperFlyingEngi
Messages: 1756
Registered: November 2003
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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Perhaps the manual was using reverse psychology.
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- Theodore Roosevelt (1918)
"The danger to political dissent is acute where the Government attempts to act under so vague a concept as the power to protect "domestic security." Given the difficulty of defining the domestic security interest, the danger of abuse in acting to protect that interest becomes apparent. --U.S. Supreme Court decision (407 U.S. 297 (1972)
The Liberal Media At Work
An objective look at media partisanship
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| Unit Balance [message #87935] |
Sun, 16 May 2004 13:42 |
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Javaxcx
Messages: 1943
Registered: February 2003
Location: Canada, eh?
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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| KaiserPanda |
People in the community would like an alternative to playing with the squirley standard Renegade "snipers." Since these alternate rules will most likely be a server option, you will still have the easy choice of playing standard Renegade.
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Who exactly are these 'people' you're generalizing? I don't want alternatives that don't need to be implimented and I'm in the community.
I see people who like to use aircraft whenever given the oppourunity seeing this "fixing" of the game as a chance to say "FINILY!!! I CAN NOW PWN LOTZ CUZ NO MOR CNIPRS GONA FUK WIT ME!"
Now, again (AGAIN, mind you): The two maps, CNC_Walls_Flying, and CNC_City_Flying are the two maps that were released with the flying patch. These two levels were REDESIGNED to compliment aircraft, and as such, the issue between snipers and aircraft is now a matter of strategy. We've (the people in this thread) agreed that aircraft have light armour, and you've done a pretty good job admitting that the Ramjet would trash "soft-skined" (which I assume is light armour) vehicles. There should be no problem, but there is, for what I see are the following arguments:
-- GR, I h8 DYIN IN MY AIRCRFT 2 SNIPRS BECUZ THEY FUKIN HERT ME ALOT
-- Snipers couldn't hit aircraft in C&C.
Well, since I've already readdressed the first one, I'll address the second one.
Thats right, snipers couldn't hit airbourne vehicles in C&C. But then again, engineers didn't have repair guns, or pistols, technicians didn't have ANYTHING short of a pathetic little pellet pistol, the Obelisk couldn't hit Orcas, Grenade launchers didn't exist -- I could go on. If you're going to base of changes off that point, then you better be ready to start taking out other issues of Renegade that weren't in C&C, no matter how unbalanced and outrageous they look.
Sniper Extraordinaire
Read the FUD Rules before you come in and make an ass of yourself.
All your base are belong to us.
You have no chance to survive make your time.
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| Unit Balance [message #87949] |
Sun, 16 May 2004 14:27 |
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Aircraftkiller
Messages: 8213
Registered: February 2003
Karma: 0
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General (5 Stars) |
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The reason the aircraft were added was so that they could be used as a support unit, not be shot down in five seconds... Otherwise, why even play them? If you can't use the aircraft well, if at all, just use the standard levels of Walls, City, and Glacier.
It defeats the entire purpose of having aircraft if they're useless, why bother adding something half-assed? City and Walls were never designed to compliment aircraft, none of the levels were... Unless you mean "big empty space" as "designed for flying."
Yeah, it's a matter of strategy... The strategy of not using anything that a "sniper" destroys in five seconds, which eliminates using about nine vehicles in the entire game. :rolleyes:
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| Unit Balance [message #87951] |
Sun, 16 May 2004 14:32 |
Battousai
Messages: 50
Registered: October 2003
Karma: 0
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I agree with Java
One sniper vs one helicopter is not unbalanced. Since the sniper needs 5 shots, and has to reload to destroy the helicopter, there is enough time for the pilot to escape/hide.
Two snipers vs one helicopter is not something to complain about because the pilot should know better than to fly over two snipers. Just like a med knows not to go against two lights.
I agree that the havoc shouldn't get so many points for hitting vehicles though.
I played a game last night and was a sniper on city flying and when apaches came out I sniped them so all they did was stay very low on top of the bridge so I couldn't hit them from the ground. Soon Sakuras came out to counter the gdi snipers so I had to focus on them instead of the apaches. This is unit balance. Both teams have snipers. If one team goes sniper heavy then you shouldn't complain about not being able to use an apache- you should go out there with an apc and kill snipers or rush their base or something else.
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| Unit Balance [message #87952] |
Sun, 16 May 2004 14:36 |
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Javaxcx
Messages: 1943
Registered: February 2003
Location: Canada, eh?
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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Have you noticed that all the support vehicles have light armour?
The MRLS, the Mobile Artillery, the transport choppers. The only difference is that they have a few more hit/armour points.
If you drive an MRLS into range of a Nod base, and you get smoked by a sniper, that too is your fault. You wouldn't drive your MRLS into a field occupied with snipers, why would you do the same thing with your Orca? You said it yourself, they're support units, and as such, probably shouldn't be spear heading assaults against snipers in the first place.
Sniper Extraordinaire
Read the FUD Rules before you come in and make an ass of yourself.
All your base are belong to us.
You have no chance to survive make your time.
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| Unit Balance [message #87963] |
Sun, 16 May 2004 15:26 |
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NukeIt15
Messages: 987
Registered: February 2003
Location: Out to lunch
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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1000 Snipers don't need too much adjusting- Think about it this way: If you are getting harrassed by ramjets, use something they have a hard time against (i.e. an APC or Med/Light Tank) to get rid of them. When you start seeing your aircraft's health start going down in chunks, you either need to charge the sniper and kill them(yes, you can do that before they kill you) or get the fuck outta dodge. Due to the size of the ramjet, it is more of a light antivehicle weapon that can be used for sniping rather than the other way around.
500 snipers do need adjusting. The bullet they fire is a much smaller caliber and has less energy behind it, so it might not even get through ANY armor above the infantry level.
Aircraft need a bit of balancing in two areas: Weapons and control setup.
The weapons need to be made less accurate and be more like the clip-fed weapons of other vehicles. I agree that the Apache should have only a chaingun, and the orca should only have rockets (cool as it looks with the nose turret). This fits in well with the GDI-Nod balance that was key in TD and TS. Since every other vehicle in either side's arsenal is built differently than its counterpart on the other side, it makes no sense that the aircraft should be identical except for their 3d model.
IMHO, the Apache chaingun should have a clip size of 50 with a RoF approximately equal to that of the Tiberium Auto Rifle. The bullets would be about twice as powerful as a single APC shot. So more firepower, but firing slower and with a reload of about 3 seconds thrown in.
The Orca rockets should fire a clip of two then reload (IIRC the TD Orca fires two shots at a time, but I could be thinking of TS). Each rocket should be about as effective as that of a single MRLS shot.
The default controls are stupid the way they are, as well (Yes, I know that the keys fit where the thumb rests naturally, but I'd rather be able to use my index, middle, and ring fingers). Spacebar and C just don't cut the mustard with WASD movement controls. Since I believe ascent and descent controls were un-remappable, they should have been in a more intelligent location(i.e. Q and E) that could be used with two or three fingers while giving other movement commands.
"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. Horrid mischief would ensue were (the law-abiding) deprived of the use of them." - Thomas Paine
Remember, kids: illiteracy is cool. If you took the time to read this, you are clearly a loser who will never get laid. You've been warned.
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| Unit Balance [message #87984] |
Sun, 16 May 2004 16:36 |
flyingfox
Messages: 1612
Registered: February 2003
Location: scotland, uk
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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I still propose the 1.5 upgrade that no-one lest a bare minimum of people seems to have read. A reminder: With this new change, it'll take 7 shots to bring down an aircraft, and do 45 damage per shot to all other light vehicles (excluding perhaps chinooks, since we might see a different armour type on them). This means hummvees will die in 7 hits, buggies 6 hits and artillery/MRLS 9 hits.
With 1.5 the damage of a standard sniper rifle to light armour, it's fair that the ramjet has more power, but not a lot more power and it keeps its purpose as an anti infantry rifle.
[Updated on: Sun, 16 May 2004 16:55] Report message to a moderator |
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| Unit Balance [message #87986] |
Sun, 16 May 2004 16:39 |
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Javaxcx
Messages: 1943
Registered: February 2003
Location: Canada, eh?
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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In your entire argument, you have only once coined realism. And it wasn't even in relation to snipers, it was regarding aircraft's objectives in the battlefield, so don't pertain to issues you didn't support, and I quote:
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Don't pull out the realism card. Nothing in C&C is realistic and you should not make a C&C game with realistic damage
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I have shown arguments, both pertaining to CNC, and to realism stating why snipers should be able to damage aircraft heavily, and upon reviewing them, YOU chose to disregard them and maintain your "GR iH8 SNIER DAMIJ" tirade.
I'm looking at armour values, and damage patterns when I say that "snipers (ramjets) heavily damage light armour, aircraft are light armour, therefore snipers should be able to heavily damage aircraft."
And while you want to recreate the C&C RTS in FPS form, you chose not to address the argument on that. Engineers didn't have repair guns, the Obelisk couldn't hit Orcas, and so on. Don't dismiss my arguments because you say I pick and choose, because you are guilty of the same thing.[/quote]
Sniper Extraordinaire
Read the FUD Rules before you come in and make an ass of yourself.
All your base are belong to us.
You have no chance to survive make your time.
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| Unit Balance [message #87995] |
Sun, 16 May 2004 17:07 |
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Javaxcx
Messages: 1943
Registered: February 2003
Location: Canada, eh?
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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| Aircraftkiller |
If you're going by realism, "snipers" aren't going to destroy aircraft. This is why I keep telling you that you're picking and choosing what you want to support.
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Neither could normal infantry, or anything short of rocket soldiers.
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From what I know, you don't use anything but a sniper, if you even played Renegade in the past eight months. It's hard to take your word for this when you don't play the game in question and don't even play other C&C games for balance issues based on them.
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Actually, I just got off a couple of games in Renegade, and I've been playing the original C&C for the last few weeks for a taste of nostalga.
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I already said that certain concessions have to be made. Engineers can't have their repair weapon removed because they repaired buildings in C&C, just not vehicles... But that's something everyone is so used to that it would never fly.
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Now that doesn't make much sense. If you're going to pick and choose which variables of the game you want to change, you're not fixing this so called "bastardized" version of Renegade as much as manipulating it into another form.
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I already said I never wanted the Obelisk of Light to destroy aircraft, this is why I said SAM Sites should be in the Nod base.
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You DO realize this would just create more balance issues, right?
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I'm not picking and choosing anything, I've had to balance RA out too and the experience gained in that shows that people would enjoy having additional levels with different balancing, which may end up having them played almost exclusively.
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This isn't RA, and there aren't additional levels. There are the standard Westwood maps plus your completed Glacier. If you want to make custom maps with different damages, go for it, but leave the already balanced game alone.
Sniper Extraordinaire
Read the FUD Rules before you come in and make an ass of yourself.
All your base are belong to us.
You have no chance to survive make your time.
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| Unit Balance [message #87996] |
Sun, 16 May 2004 17:12 |
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Aircraftkiller
Messages: 8213
Registered: February 2003
Karma: 0
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General (5 Stars) |
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Once again, concessions have to be made. Soldiers should logically be able to shoot at aircraft and damage them, but that doesn't mean aircraft should be totally ineffective because of it. Soldiers just wouldn't be as good as a Rocket Soldier or the equivilant AA weapon.
I never once said I wanted the entire game's dynamics changed. Some are good, some are not, and "snipers" are one part of it that is not good. "Snipers = unbalanced" doesn't mean "Everything else needs to be changed."
How would SAM Sites create balance issues? Three SAM Sites in a Nod base would be able to get destroyed by ground units. If lost, the Nod team has to defend their base against aircraft, but not ground threats, because the Obelisk of Light is still operating. Nod would have spread-out defenses instead of one centralized defense structure, the Advanced Guard Tower.
Losing the AGT as GDI means you lose both air and ground defense. Losing the Obelisk as Nod means you just lose ground defense, not AA defenses.
There will be additional levels, if you had paid attention. There will be C&C_BHS(Levelname) versions of the official game levels that will have different balance changes.
The game isn't being left alone, get used to it.
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| Unit Balance [message #87998] |
Sun, 16 May 2004 17:27 |
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Javaxcx
Messages: 1943
Registered: February 2003
Location: Canada, eh?
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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| Aircraftkiller |
Once again, concessions have to be made. Soldiers should logically be able to shoot at aircraft and damage them, but that doesn't mean aircraft should be totally ineffective because of it. Soldiers just wouldn't be as good as a Rocket Soldier or the equivilant AA weapon.
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You are picking and choosing which concessions you want to make. I find that engineers repairing vehicles and infantry to be considered bastardizing C&C, change that, too. I don't care that people are used to it, because people are used to sniper damage too (And what can I say? Most of them can adapt to the damage and know when not to engage the enemy in a SUPPORT unit).
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I never once said I wanted the entire game's dynamics changed. Some are good, some are not, and "snipers" are one part of it that is not good. "Snipers = unbalanced" doesn't mean "Everything else needs to be changed."
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No, snipers (Ramjets) are not unbalanced. They do exactly what the game was made for them to do (EXCEPT for the points they obtain for shooting heavily armoured vehicles), damage lightly armoured vehicles heavily and slay infantry.
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How would SAM Sites create balance issues? Three SAM Sites in a Nod base would be able to get destroyed by ground units. If lost, the Nod team has to defend their base against aircraft, but not ground threats, because the Obelisk of Light is still operating. Nod would have spread-out defenses instead of one centralized defense structure, the Advanced Guard Tower.
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I'm going to assume that a limit of maybe two SAM sites is present on each of the flying maps. Once those are destoried, GDI and easily fly a transport chopper in full of the hardest units possible, and wipe out the entire Nod base because their Obelisk isn't doing anything about it. On the flipside, no matter what Nod does, their infantry get slaughtered by the advanced guard tower, their Apaches would too, also, they would only be able to prick vehicles such as Medium and Mammoth tanks with it's machine gun (you DID want that, too, right?) only, while vehicles like Orcas can simply over Nod's only reasonable vehicular defences and pummel them with it's rockets (before it has to refill them). What's more, they can do this is the Nod base, because the Obelisk does nothing! Don't tell me there won't be balance issues, you'll play one game of City_flying and you'll plotz all over when you see that Nod gets ass raped every time.
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There will be additional levels, if you had paid attention. There will be C&C_BHS(Levelname) versions of the official game levels that will have different balance changes.
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Thanks for pointing out what obviously must happen if you want to impliment these changes. I'm talking about levels outside the realm of the original Westwood ones.
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The game isn't being left alone
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Good, but snipers better be.
Sniper Extraordinaire
Read the FUD Rules before you come in and make an ass of yourself.
All your base are belong to us.
You have no chance to survive make your time.
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| Unit Balance [message #88003] |
Sun, 16 May 2004 17:41 |
flyingfox
Messages: 1612
Registered: February 2003
Location: scotland, uk
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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A few points,
If the Obelisk can't attack air units, as said, there'll be balance issues worse than the already bad balance between the AGT and Obelisk. How hard can it be to take out a SAM site? Defending a SAM is just like defending a turret. Once the sams are down, everyone will definetly buy aircraft. Why use ground vehicles when you can enter the enemy base by air? Why go on foot, when you can transport 4 people at a time with a chinook?
Nod will also have more of a burden on defending the sams as well as the Obelisk, which some may see as unfair.
Last point, (directed at Java) I don't think jonathan meant Adv guard towers will only use turret fire on ground units. Both warheads'll be used on both ground & flying units.
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| Unit Balance [message #88010] |
Sun, 16 May 2004 17:54 |
Phoenix - Aeon
Messages: 221
Registered: April 2004
Karma: 0
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Recruit |
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Errm, could I just point out that S.A.M's tend to be inside the base, behind the obelisk. You can't roll up to them in a tank that easily.
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| Unit Balance [message #88014] |
Sun, 16 May 2004 17:57 |
flyingfox
Messages: 1612
Registered: February 2003
Location: scotland, uk
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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I think they'd be in positions that could defend the base better. If they were behind the obelisk (we're talking City Flying?) they wouldn't be able to defend well against side assaults, especially loitering aircraft behind the skyscrapers. They'll probably be put in place of the Turrets.
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| Unit Balance [message #88017] |
Sun, 16 May 2004 18:00 |
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Aircraftkiller
Messages: 8213
Registered: February 2003
Karma: 0
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General (5 Stars) |
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| Quote: |
You are picking and choosing which concessions you want to make. I find that engineers repairing vehicles and infantry to be considered bastardizing C&C, change that, too. I don't care that people are used to it, because people are used to sniper damage too (And what can I say? Most of them can adapt to the damage and know when not to engage the enemy in a SUPPORT unit).
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So in some strange way, you're actually agreeing with removing the n00b cannon damage?
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No, snipers (Ramjets) are not unbalanced. They do exactly what the game was made for them to do (EXCEPT for the points they obtain for shooting heavily armoured vehicles), damage lightly armoured vehicles heavily and slay infantry.
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Okay, so once again, if the game came with a unit that won the game five seconds after being purchased, that wouldn't be unbalanced... It came with the game, after all. They weren't made to destroy vehicles, it's a bug in the armor.ini. Shrapnel warheads do inordinate amounts of damage to vehicles when their power is increased to 200. It's the same league as the glitch causing damage points to go up.
If the GDI destroys the SAM Sites, they earn the right to fly unchallenged by base defenses. Not ground units. They aren't easy to destroy, either, since they pop up when firing, and hide underground when not firing.
The GDI would have the disadvantage. Once the AGT is gone, the entire defense system of the GDI is gone except for Guard Towers, which wouldn't shoot at aircraft.
Doesn't matter what you were talking about, you never made that clear until now. Snipers aren't getting left alone, get used to it.
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| Unit Balance [message #88050] |
Mon, 17 May 2004 00:29 |
Jorge
Messages: 22
Registered: April 2004
Karma: 0
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| Aircraftkiller |
The GDI would have the disadvantage. Once the AGT is gone, the entire defense system of the GDI is gone except for Guard Towers, which wouldn't shoot at aircraft.
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On a side Note, another disadvantage for the GDI is if their power goes off-line then their AGT goes offline, which means their entire defense system goes down. But if the Nod powerplant goes off-line, their SAM's still function thus they are still protected against Aircraft with low power while the GDI are not if they lose their Power Plant.
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| Unit Balance [message #88053] |
Mon, 17 May 2004 01:05 |
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Crimson
Messages: 7429
Registered: February 2003
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Karma: 0
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General (5 Stars)
ADMINISTRATOR |
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Yes, please remember this. The attempts for rebalance would be an alternative to the normal maps, not overwriting the current ones. I think most of you should concede that you'd like to try it out ACK's way and see if you like it. You should think of it as an ongoing project.
It is in fact infuriating in a large server when some sniper can take you almost completely out before you even find him. But in converse to that, in the HazTeam servers, there are no snipers and EVERYONE is flying. It still made an exciting game but I'm not so sure flying should be so encouraged as to be so unopposed.
I'm the bawss.
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| Unit Balance [message #88076] |
Mon, 17 May 2004 06:19 |
mahkra
Messages: 219
Registered: April 2004
Karma: 0
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Recruit |
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| NukeIt15 |
I believe ascent and descent controls were un-remappable
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Actually, acsent/descent ARE remappable, just not explicitly. When you reset your "jump" key, you're also resetting your "ascend" key. Likewise for "crouch" and "descend."
| Crimson |
I think most of you should concede that you'd like to try it out ACK's way and see if you like it.
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Actually I can honestly say I have no desire to try it out ACK's way. Why would I want to try it a different way when I think it's perfectly good the way it is right now?
On that note, it amuses me to no end that you 'big shots' in the 'community' are the ones who want the game changed. If you think the game's so broken the way it is, then why have you all spent years playing it and obsessing over it? A lot of us think the game's perfect right now, and we're not wasting our lives on it 24/7.... if you guys don't like the game as much as I do, why are you devoting your lives to it when I'm only playing it a few hours a week?
(That's just a rhetorical question, by the way. Don't bother answering, because I happen to not give a damn what you think anyway.)
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