Home » Tiberian Technologies / Blackhand Studios » Other Products » Unit Balance
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| Unit Balance [message #84797] |
Sat, 01 May 2004 19:56   |
icedog90
Messages: 3483
Registered: April 2003
Karma: 0
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General (3 Stars) |
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| SEAL |
Don't like getting shot down? Don't fly. Orcas and Apaches are fun, but they don't win games.
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Last I played, which was last night, me and a couple of other Orcas easily owned a Nod base in a couple minutes, and no one could hurt us fast enough. Keep in mind that this was after the Hand of Nod was destroyed.
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| Unit Balance [message #84800] |
Sat, 01 May 2004 20:03 |
Battousai
Messages: 50
Registered: October 2003
Karma: 0
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Recruit |
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Is there a way to make critical areas on vehicles? If you hit a vehicle in different areas, it does a different amount of damage? I feel like that's the best solution to the orca-sniper balance problem. If the sniper can hit the orca in the cockpit then the pilot should die and the orca should crash, elsewhere the sniper does no damage.
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| Unit Balance [message #84836] |
Sat, 01 May 2004 22:09 |
spoonyrat
Messages: 406
Registered: December 2003
Location: England
Karma: 0
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Commander |
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| SEAL |
Orcas and Apaches are fun, but they don't win games.
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lol? it's perfectly possible to win a game single-handedly in a large server with an orca/apache. Not in a small clan game though, you'll get shot down, but it's do-able in a public server
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| Unit Balance [message #84865] |
Sun, 02 May 2004 01:00 |
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Aircraftkiller
Messages: 8213
Registered: February 2003
Karma: 0
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General (5 Stars) |
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Likewise, you're guilty of the same thing.
Not one person has given a logical argument as to why "snipers" should destroy aircraft. Most everyone against the lame damage they do has provided reasons that can be backed up with more than just "I want to be able to fly," unlike what I get from people who think "sniping" aircraft is alright... "omg if i lose my n00b cannon AA ability ill quit renegade!"
What it seems like is that everyone is so used to how the n00b cannon "snipers" work that they, as a majority, don't want it changed for fear that they might not be as good anymore. Or something similar to that. God forbid that you'd have to hide and use tactics as a sniper instead of play "sniper" and flicker dance on a bridge in the open... Or get massive points versus vehicles, and destroy seven different vehicles with relative ease, while killing almost any soldier with only one or two shots.
This is why I keep saying "if Renegade shipped with a unit that won the game five seconds after being purchased, you'd probably be defending it as a strategy." Why wouldn't you? In essence, they're not much different. n00b cannons win the game for their team, all it takes is three n00b cannons to shoot enemy vehicles all game... At 10 points a shot for the Medium and Light Tank, Artillery, and MRLS... And 15-25 for the Mammoth Tank and the Stealth Tank, who needs to use tanks to attack the enemy base? You get more points shooting tanks and soldiers all game than you do actually trying to attack the enemy base.
This goes against the point of C&C mode which is to destroy the enemy base, not shoot at tanks and soldiers simply becuase you can get plenty of points to negate the enemy attacks on your base.
Oh, yeah, and the fact that they're nearly unstoppable to begin with. Add it up. Seven vehicles easily destroyed from 300 meters, which is maximum viewing distance. All soldiers easily destroyed from that same distance. 32 rounds, four in the clip. Five takes out an Orca or Apache. Four are in the gun. It takes less than 10 seconds to destory an Orca with a n00b cannon if each shot hits, which they usually do.
If they have two n00b cannons, you live an average of 2-5 seconds.
Three, 2-4 seconds.
Four, you're probably falling to the ground (Wow, even more punishment for aircraft pilots! Guaranteed death each time you get shot down with no chance of escaping.) by the time you pop out of your base.
Maybe you think it's strategy to allow snipers to destroy aircraft and seven other vehicles, while garnering huge amounts of points. I don't. It goes against C&C and it goes against any fucking concept of a balanced game.
The Commando in C&C barely hurt a Buggy for fuck's sake. Why? I'm sure you'll say "but you can only get eight vehicles." Obviously, but that doesn't mean the unit balance or interactions are different in first person. Simply because you can't get more than eight vehicles doesn't mean that you have to make those vehicles more easy to destroy via a really half-assed means of balance, nor does it mean the unit balance\interactions would be any different in the game to begin with.
Eight vehicles in C&C are still powerful. Eight in C&C can still assault an enemy base if all the base is limited to are a few defenses.
If you limit everything else except soldiers, the balance is pretty much identical to C&C. Renegade is not.
If you read Pi's statement, Renegade's MP mode wasn't even made until really late in development. It got half-assed. Why should we have to put up with a half-assed game because you aren't willing to accept that some things Just Aren't Right?
BHS has already said that aircraft will have more survivability, and it's not as if we're forcing the changes into standard Renegade itself, they're only going to be in additional levels.
Besides, you can't know that it won't work if you haven't even tried it before.
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| Unit Balance [message #84883] |
Sun, 02 May 2004 03:11 |
spoonyrat
Messages: 406
Registered: December 2003
Location: England
Karma: 0
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Commander |
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| Aircraftkiller |
it's not as if we're forcing the changes into standard Renegade itself, they're only going to be in additional levels.
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Oh......
In that case, forget anything I said to oppose this
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| Unit Balance [message #84928] |
Sun, 02 May 2004 07:27 |
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Javaxcx
Messages: 1943
Registered: February 2003
Location: Canada, eh?
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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| Aircraftkiller |
Likewise, you're guilty of the same thing.
Not one person has given a logical argument as to why "snipers" should destroy aircraft. Most everyone against the lame damage they do has provided reasons that can be backed up with more than just "I want to be able to fly," unlike what I get from people who think "sniping" aircraft is alright... "omg if i lose my n00b cannon AA ability ill quit renegade!"
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Given the nature of the game, and given the nature of the ammunition, snipers should be able to damage airborune vehicles heavily. Renegade uses the first person engine, which means that you can point your weapon anywhere and fire, and it will cause damage to whatever target it effectively hits. This being said, any unit can potentially hit an aircraft. Now, if the game says: "Havoc units and Sakura units will share an armour piercing bullet", this means: it will penetrate light armour. Since aircraft have light armour, and snipers fire an airmour piercing bullet, and the nature of the game allows for the snipers to hit aircraft, then you should have to corridinate your strategy to take into account the fact that you are susceptible to major damage from snipers.
The only recourse I can see for this might be if Deadeye and Blackhand snipers also fire armour piercing bullets, in which case I would see it reasonable to reduce the damage of the Ramjet rifle's munition to that slightly greater than the Standard Sniper rifle instead of what appears to be double the damage.
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What it seems like is that everyone is so used to how the n00b cannon "snipers" work that they, as a majority, don't want it changed for fear that they might not be as good anymore.
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Not speaking for the majority, but I know that a good portion of the snipers in Renegade don't choose a sniper over another unit for the reason that they can take out lightly armoured vehicles easily. The good ones take Deadeye, or the Blackhand sniper instead for reasons totally unrelated.
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Or something similar to that. God forbid that you'd have to hide and use tactics as a sniper instead of play "sniper" and flicker dance on a bridge in the open...
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Well, I can use the same argument about aircraft: "God forbid that you'd have to think about your plan of attack while driving an Orca, or cordinate a way around known snipers on the map"
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This is why I keep saying "if Renegade shipped with a unit that won the game five seconds after being purchased, you'd probably be defending it as a strategy."
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I'd have to disagree with you, if that supposed super unit did exist, the game wouldn't be fun and people wouldn't play it. It's not the same way with aircraft at all for the reason that aircraft en masse will win a game faster and with more points than a group of snipers could. Hell, ONE aircraft could eradicate a base while the sniper could do nothing short of a few scratches. And don't argue that the sniper would simply shoot down the aircraft. In maps like Walls_Flying, for example, you figure it out.
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Why wouldn't you? In essence, they're not much different. n00b cannons win the game for their team, all it takes is three n00b cannons to shoot enemy vehicles all game...
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When is the last time you've seen a team full of snipers just sit there and shoot tanks for points instead of defending their base. If you can't turn the tides if that happens, then you really shouldn't be complaining about point values and damages.
However, I do agree that the points given for snipers against heavily armoured vehicles is likely a flaw in the system, and I fully agree that the point values and cash income off this should be changed.
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Oh, yeah, and the fact that they're nearly unstoppable to begin with. Add it up. Seven vehicles easily destroyed from 300 meters, which is maximum viewing distance. All soldiers easily destroyed from that same distance. 32 rounds, four in the clip. Five takes out an Orca or Apache. Four are in the gun. It takes less than 10 seconds to destory an Orca with a n00b cannon if each shot hits, which they usually do.
If they have two n00b cannons, you live an average of 2-5 seconds.
Three, 2-4 seconds.
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I'm going to repeat myself: If you're going to fly an Orca into a base full of Boss Class snipers, you're to blame, not the sniper.
You're also forgetting that Orcas and Apache's aren't without their advantages either: they can fly faster, maneuver around objects and land to repair, can EASILY avoid being anally raped by snipers if they use the terrian to their advantage. You shouldn't be trying to nerf some damage on account of a few people who can't figure out that when they're being shot at, they might want to get out of the way and take cover. And that is easy! Because you can see the tracer from the Ramjet and see EXACTLY where it's coming from.
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Four, you're probably falling to the ground (Wow, even more punishment for aircraft pilots! Guaranteed death each time you get shot down with no chance of escaping.) by the time you pop out of your base.
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That is the risk that all pilots take when they fly out of their base. It doesn't need to be 4 Ramjet rifles, it can easily be 4 railguns, or a barrage of Gunners.
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Maybe you think it's strategy to allow snipers to destroy aircraft and seven other vehicles, while garnering huge amounts of points. I don't. It goes against C&C and it goes against any fucking concept of a balanced game.
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Yes, and no. Snipers should be allowed to maintain their damages, but shouldn't be allowed to rack up points and cash by shooting heavily armoured vehicles. Yes, it does go against C&C by having snipers able to shoot down airbourne units, but so does having airbourne units shot down by any other infantry unit, short of rocketeers.
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The Commando in C&C barely hurt a Buggy for fuck's sake. Why? I'm sure you'll say "but you can only get eight vehicles."
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Nope, I'd say that is merely an issue about Renegade that does not mirror C&C. Just like engineers repairing infantry and vehicles, or the Obelisk shooting down Orcas.
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If you read Pi's statement, Renegade's MP mode wasn't even made until really late in development. It got half-assed. Why should we have to put up with a half-assed game because you aren't willing to accept that some things Just Aren't Right?
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"Just aren't right" is awfully subjective. I think that snipers are fine on their own as it stands and I've justified myself.
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BHS has already said that aircraft will have more survivability, and it's not as if we're forcing the changes into standard Renegade itself, they're only going to be in additional levels.
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Weren't those additional levels supposed to be "fixed" versions of the originals? I hope in that case, that BHS would release "untouched" versions of those fixed levels, because I'm sure the levels themselves will turn out great, not the munition changes.
Sniper Extraordinaire
Read the FUD Rules before you come in and make an ass of yourself.
All your base are belong to us.
You have no chance to survive make your time.
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| Unit Balance [message #84952] |
Sun, 02 May 2004 11:33 |
mahkra
Messages: 219
Registered: April 2004
Karma: 0
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Recruit |
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| Aircraftkiller |
Not one person has given a logical argument as to why "snipers" should destroy aircraft.
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A RAMJET is a type of jet engine that has a MINIMUM operating speed of around 400mph, and no theoretical maximum speed. In practice, it is used at low supersonic speeds, up to about mach 5.
The fact that a ramjet is not usable at less that 400mph made the idea of a "ramjet rifle" ludicrous to me, because it's meaningless for a ramjet to be integrated into the rifle part. What it might mean, though, is that the bullets somehow have a micro-ramjet engine embedded inside them that accelerates them even more after they're fired. This idea may seem absurd, but C&C is a fantasy world with invisible tanks, so let's just assume we can do it. (Also, this explains the tracer -- a stream of exhaust from the ramjet engine.)
For purposes of comparison, the M40A1 sniper rifle has a muzzle velocity of 2550 feet per second, which is almost 1750 miles per hour. Some more modern sniper rifles are around 10% faster. I haven't thoroughly researched every rifle in the world, so there may be some that reach even higher velocities, but I'll just use an estimate of 2000 mph for a "real" sniper rifle.
So let's say the bullet is fired at 2000 mph. After it leaves the muzzle, the normal rifle's bullet will slow down from the air drag and fall to the ground from gravity, which is what gives the rifle an "effective range." For modern rifles I believe this number is around a couple thousand meters.
We should assume a ramjet rifle would have a comparable muzzle velocity. After the bullets are fired, though, the differences become extreme. While the normal bullet slows down, the ramjet round SPEEDS UP, possibly reaching speeds of around 3500 - 4000 mph before impact. This would extend the range of the rifle by an incredible amount and greatly increase the damage caused by a single shot.
Now, I ask you, would a bullet traveling at mach 5 be able to tear apart a lightly armored helicopter? Before you say no, remember what ACK said:
| Aircraftkiller |
Besides, you can't know that it won't work if you haven't even tried it before.
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| Unit Balance [message #84962] |
Sun, 02 May 2004 12:34 |
icedog90
Messages: 3483
Registered: April 2003
Karma: 0
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General (3 Stars) |
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| SEAL |
| icedog90 |
| SEAL |
Don't like getting shot down? Don't fly. Orcas and Apaches are fun, but they don't win games.
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Last I played, which was last night, me and a couple of other Orcas easily owned a Nod base in a couple minutes, and no one could hurt us fast enough. Keep in mind that this was after the Hand of Nod was destroyed.
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And what destroyed the Hon in the first place, giving you the upper hand? Orcas?
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Yes.
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| Unit Balance [message #84972] |
Sun, 02 May 2004 13:38 |
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htmlgod
Messages: 360
Registered: July 2003
Karma: 0
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Commander |
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Not to butt in or anything, but I really think you should strengthen your support base before you go off making significant changes that will probably not help broaden your support. Lately n00bstories servers have all been requiring rengaurd, and in the last week I have never once seen a single play in the n00bstories servers. Instead of immediately rebalancing the game, or at least while you rework some balancing problems, you should make some new implementations, like the Taunts featured by BC servers, and the emoticons, which I know you have already worked on, to attract more players. Then, once you have the support of the majority of the players, even the ones who don't normally download maps and mods when they're available, then you start trying to get your balancing ideas supported. I know that just about everyone who actively posts in this forum supports renguard, but look at the thousands of players who don't. If the masses supported renguard, the renguard servers would not be running empty. In the words of Proximo, "Win the crowd and you will win your freedom."
Check out http://newhope.conquergaming.com to see the progress of the STARWARS mod for Renegade.
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| Unit Balance [message #85038] |
Sun, 02 May 2004 18:36 |
icedog90
Messages: 3483
Registered: April 2003
Karma: 0
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General (3 Stars) |
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HTMLGOD does make a pretty good point in both posts.
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| Unit Balance [message #85099] |
Mon, 03 May 2004 00:28 |
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Hydra
Messages: 827
Registered: September 2003
Location: Atlanta, GA
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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It's a fucking game, not real life. The ramjet rifle was added in to be a one-hit-kill sniper rifle with a cheaper, but weaker, alternative. It should not be able to make aircraft completely worthless for the sake of game balance. Sure, maybe a ramjet bullet in real life would speed up instead of slow down, and maybe helicopters have paper-thin armor already, and maybe a bullet that speeds up may do considerable damage to an aircraft in real life, but in a video game, such a weapon creates an imbalance. It makes everyone want to get these ramjet rifles to kill aircraft in a handful of shots from halfway across the map. Why even have helicopters in the game if they're going to be destroyed two fucking seconds after it leaves the base because some retards with no better strategy decide to use a weapon that was intended to be a one-shot-kill anti-infantry weapon against a helicopter?
Walter Keith Koester: September 22, 1962 - March 15, 2005
God be with you, Uncle Wally.
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| Unit Balance [message #85153] |
Mon, 03 May 2004 05:47 |
mahkra
Messages: 219
Registered: April 2004
Karma: 0
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Recruit |
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I really do not understand why the ramjet is such a problem.
Everyone complaining about the ramjet says that it's just n00bs and such sitting out in the open shooting at tanks and helicopters.
If this is really the case, then why don't you just buy ONE deadeye and snipe them all? If they suck so much that all they can snipe is vehicles, it should be easy for you. And you'll get TONS of points if there are always lots of sakuras around for you to kill.
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Why even have helicopters in the game if they're going to be destroyed two fucking seconds after it leaves the base
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Helicopters NEED SUPPORT. But that's not unusual; nothing in this game is supposed to be uber-effective alone. Given the right counter, ANY UNIT you try to use by itself can be stopped ALMOST INSTANTLY. Why should helicopters be any different?
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| Unit Balance [message #85203] |
Mon, 03 May 2004 10:04 |
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Blazer
Messages: 3322
Registered: February 2003
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Karma: 0
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General (3 Stars)
Administrator/General |
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My personal opinion on snipers versus vehicles...hmm well I would say that in "real life" if you are a sniper, your job is to hide and pick off infantry, you would NEVER fire your rifle at at vehicle, much less a freaking TANK. You might fire at a helicopter if you knew where to aim to hit a hydraulic or fuel line in one shot.
That being said, Renegade is not "real life"...its a game. But at the same time, when Im sitting in what I feel is a huge steel plated vehicle (mobart or mrls), I dont think its right that some guy with the equivalent of a deer rifle (deadeye), can destroy my vehicle in a few shots!
The ramjet rifle, which seems to me to be a "railgun" (even though raveshaws weapon is called the railgun, it has laser ammo so its not really), I could understand being able to penetrate armor and such (like in the movie "Eraser"), so I could see it being able to damage lightly armored vehicles.
In short, I think the deadeye/blackhand sniper should do very little or no damage to amored vehicles, and the Ramjet should do a little damage to lightly armored vehicles (aircraft, mrls, mobart), but very little damage to heavily armed vehicles like tanks.
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| Unit Balance [message #85223] |
Mon, 03 May 2004 12:11 |
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mrpirate
Messages: 1262
Registered: March 2003
Location: Ontario
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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Renegade is balanced, more or less. On a map-by-map basis, Nod has the advantage sometimes, and GDI has an advantage sometimes. Overall, though, it's not one side winning all the time, so the game is balanced. I assume that what you people are saying is unbalanced is the battle between a helicopter and a high-class sniper. One on one, the advantage goes to the helicopter. Higher than that, and your helicopter deserves to die. Snipers are necessary to winning a game, in that they take out support units, like Raveshaw and Mobius--just try to win a game without a Hand of Nod or Infantry Barracks. Snipers are also fucking owned by Orcas and Apaches, so they need to be able to defend themselves, as there's little to no cover in Renegade.
If Renegade is changed so that snipers no longer do damage to lightly-armoured vehicles, the Apaches and Orcas are the units that are going to be suddenly creating an "imbalance."
It's not C&C, it's Renegade, and it's too late to do anything about it.
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