| Unit Balance [message #83273] |
Sun, 25 April 2004 15:39   |
Homey
Messages: 1084
Registered: February 2003
Location: Canada
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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| spoonyrat |
Seriously homey, I really didn't expect a dumb question like that from you.
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it bugs me when you cant body shoot or hs with an arty because its ofcourse 
Homey
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| Unit Balance [message #83279] |
Sun, 25 April 2004 15:59 |
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Crimson
Messages: 7429
Registered: February 2003
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Karma: 0
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General (5 Stars)
ADMINISTRATOR |
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We are FIXING bugs that Westwood intended to fix. You know what else is cheating? That the host of a server gets to see these things already!
The host has their pistol already loaded.
The host gets to hear when the harvester is damaged.
The host doesn't see snipers flicker when they strafe while scoped.
etc...
If Westwood did not intend to release these features, then why are they available to the host? Furthermore, in our research, we are finding mere typos or syntax errors that were making these things not work. This obviously shows that Westwood intended to have these features available.
However, it appears you are in the minority, as less than 1% of all RenGuard users have opted not to accept these bug fixes. Thanks to all of you for your support.
| mahkra |
| Crimson |
The bug fixes we have scheduled right now will work on ANY server you join.
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To me, this seems tantamount to an endorsement of cheating. Some people may not agree that all of the "bugs" actually need to be changed. (And as self-proclaimed "leaders of the community," you should be sympathetic to those of us who wish to play the game un-modded.)
You may not think of these bug fixes a cheat. But consider this: if one person starts with a pistol always loaded, and another must reload his pistol before firing, doesn't that give one player an unfair advantage? (Granted, this is not as extreme as, say, a bighead mod, but it is still unfair.) Another example: if only one or two people in a game can see icons to go along with radio messages, doesn't that create an unfair situation?
I believe that if you want to fix bugs and make balance changes, you should release everything as a mod to the game, so people can still play a totally un-modified game on certain servers. Don't just try to change the game itself. Doing that only punishes those of us who want to play the game the way Westwood made it.
-mahkra
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I'm the bawss.
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| Unit Balance [message #83293] |
Sun, 25 April 2004 17:09 |
spoonyrat
Messages: 406
Registered: December 2003
Location: England
Karma: 0
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Commander |
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I'm probably not the only person who thinks the host SHOULD have advantages.... as implied by the term "host advantage". But if all that's limited to is ungodly artillery splash, I'm content. Or would be if my connection didn't suck so bad that I couldn't host anyway.
/me returns to the topic
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| Unit Balance [message #83298] |
Sun, 25 April 2004 17:14 |
spoonyrat
Messages: 406
Registered: December 2003
Location: England
Karma: 0
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Commander |
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Better question might be: Why not polish something that's dusty.
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| Unit Balance [message #83316] |
Sun, 25 April 2004 18:12 |
flyingfox
Messages: 1612
Registered: February 2003
Location: scotland, uk
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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| Aircraftkiller |
It's not about small games. A LOT of tactics don't work in small games. So what? Why should the entire game be adjusted so that it works optimally in smaller games?
Aircraft need to be like they were in C&C, or flying becomes unenjoyable garbage because you get shot down the moment you leave your base.
Doing it the way I said makes the game like C&C, what it was meant to be, and balances out without a problem.
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I had originally typed out a long reply to this, but I'll summarise it in 1 paragraph.
This is the only beef I have with bringing game dynamics from an RTS game to a 3D FPS and it's the same argument I had with renalert. How is it possible in Renegade to recreate the 'C&C' style when you have a limit of 8 vehicles, 20 units per team (to sum it up for fair performance rates), long range snipers, a 3D environment (where it's possible to miss your target), limited ammo for soldiers, the fact that any ground unit can hit an airborne unit, character independance, the fact that you can only control yourself and not the whole team, along with a myriad of other reasons? If you want to recreate the C&C style of something, surely you need to recreate every consequence that came with it to avoid flaw?
The limitations and differences between the 2 engines are what will always make them different and not as balanced as we'd all love them to be.
[Updated on: Sun, 25 April 2004 18:18] Report message to a moderator |
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| Unit Balance [message #83329] |
Sun, 25 April 2004 18:47 |
flyingfox
Messages: 1612
Registered: February 2003
Location: scotland, uk
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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I think that's where my argument takes flight. That's exactly what I'm trying to say. Some elements from C&C are simply not possible in Renegade, just like you said, and without every consequential element that comes from one, such as the "hit and run" tactics of aircraft, the game won't be balanced like you'd want it to be. That could always be seen as a theory, but each to his own.
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| Unit Balance [message #83332] |
Sun, 25 April 2004 18:55 |
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Aircraftkiller
Messages: 8213
Registered: February 2003
Karma: 0
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General (5 Stars) |
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Some aren't, that's why I said CORE GAMEPLAY.
I'll make it simpler:
Rocket Soldier versus Medium Tank.
Medium Tank loses.
Why? Rocket Soldier, while cheaper, has anti-armor rockets and will eventually destroy the Medium Tank 80% of the time unless the tank runs it over. The tank's cannon isn't meant for AP warfare.
Rocket Soldier versus Orca.
Orca loses, because the Orca isn't meant to survive against SAM threats.
Rocket Soldier versus Humm-vee.
Rocket Soldier loses, because the Humm-vee is an AP weapon and kills the Rocket Soldier before it can do much damage.
Rocket Soldier versus Commando (Or Havoc as he's now called.)
Rocket Soldier loses because the Commando has a powerful .50 caliber sniper rifle which kills him in one shot.
Get the point? I'm not saying anything but having the core gameplay.
It'd be a lot more fun, and C&C, to have everything the way it should be. Just without buildable bases and other minor issues that can be balanced out (Such as leaving in snipers but not allowing them to damage vehicles, adding in brush or better designed levels for snipers and infantry to hide instead of being forced into the open to die over and over...) over a short period of time.
C&C is already balanced. Renegade isn't.
If you don't like how Orcas handle, or Apaches in a C&C balanced situation... Here's a concept, use a tank! They're meant to dominate, not aircraft. This is true even in a real military conflict. Aircraft cannot hold objectives in reality, only foot soldiers and tanks have the ability to hold an objective because they aren't required to refuel by returning to a set point.
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| Unit Balance [message #83355] |
Sun, 25 April 2004 20:59 |
mahkra
Messages: 219
Registered: April 2004
Karma: 0
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Recruit |
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| Crimson |
We are FIXING bugs that Westwood intended to fix. You know what else is cheating? That the host of a server gets to see these things already!
The host has their pistol already loaded.
The host gets to hear when the harvester is damaged.
The host doesn't see snipers flicker when they strafe while scoped.
etc...
If Westwood did not intend to release these features, then why are they available to the host? Furthermore, in our research, we are finding mere typos or syntax errors that were making these things not work. This obviously shows that Westwood intended to have these features available.
However, it appears you are in the minority, as less than 1% of all RenGuard users have opted not to accept these bug fixes. Thanks to all of you for your support.
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Crimson,
First, I'd just like to clarify that I did not intend that to be a personal attack, so please don't take offense.
Second, I didn't know the host got to see those things already - I've never hosted a game on my own computer; I've always just played on my dedicated server.
(My point is still valid, though. Maybe the host already gets an unfair advantage, but then again, some people already use bighead. Does that mean that we should just give 50% of the players bighead to make things more even?)
Third, you said that most people with RenGuard have auto-update turned on. But do you have any statistics about what % of people who play Ren actually have RenGuard? (Maybe 99% of RenGuard users want auto-update. But that might actually only be 50% of all people who play Renegade.)
Personally, I think it would be great to fix bugs like making the pistol come loaded & making the radio work the way it was intended. And if someone could release an OFFICIAL patch that would fix the bugs, I'd be supportive. (but NO balance changes - the game doesn't need any)
The problem, though, is that BHS is not Westwood, nor is it EA. Any patch released by BHS would be unofficial, and there's no way to get an unofficial patch to everyone who plays Renegade. (It *might* be possible to get the patch to everyone in "the community," but there happen to be LOTS of players who never visit n00bstories and know nothing of "the community." And we shouldn't forget about them.)
If you could make the changes in a mod, though, then people with the patch could play together, and people with the unpatched version could still play in a fair environment. (An alternative might be to force the patched version to connect through BHS instead of WOL, which would also prevent patched & unpatched players from being in the same games.)
I'm not opposed to fixing obvious bugs. What I AM opposed to, though, is changing the game when there's no way to get the change to EVERYONE.
-mahkra
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| Unit Balance [message #83357] |
Sun, 25 April 2004 21:05 |
mahkra
Messages: 219
Registered: April 2004
Karma: 0
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Recruit |
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| Aircraftkiller |
C&C is already balanced. Renegade isn't.
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Actually, Renegade IS balanced. But it's not balanced in the same way as C&C. It's balanced in a way that makes it fun to use each individual unit, rather than in a way that makes it fun to control all the units at once.
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| Unit Balance [message #83358] |
Sun, 25 April 2004 21:22 |
spoonyrat
Messages: 406
Registered: December 2003
Location: England
Karma: 0
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Commander |
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Like I've said, changes like this might well improve gameplay in large servers... They'll totally wreck 1v1-2v2-3v3
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| Unit Balance [message #83382] |
Sun, 25 April 2004 23:47 |
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Crimson
Messages: 7429
Registered: February 2003
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Karma: 0
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General (5 Stars)
ADMINISTRATOR |
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You pretty much outlined our struggles. The benefit to getting everyone in RenGuard is so that the game can once again be supported instead of left as abandoned by EA. Some people say we want to "take over Renegade"... but our intentions are noble. Not motivated by financial gain (in fact I and others have SPENT money to make this happen)... we just want this game to be supported and try and finish what Westwood couldn't.
The solution to this is to run RenGuard on your servers. More and more people every day are downloading it. It takes time, and the servers that don't run RenGuard are just hindering our growth and for those who are "waiting for Renguard to be more popular" ... they aren't helping the situation. I stand firm that if you want to play on my servers, you'd better prove to me that you're not cheating. I don't want my moderators and admins to have to sit there and test you all the time. We want to PLAY.
I'm the bawss.
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| Unit Balance [message #83383] |
Sun, 25 April 2004 23:53 |
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Deathgod
Messages: 504
Registered: February 2003
Location: The House of B
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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Shit, Grenadiers already HAVE a useful, damaging weapon. They fuck up vehicles and buildings hardcore, and they are FREE. They can kill a building by themselves, for god's sake.
OMFG UNBALANCEDD!!!!!!11 CAL FUKEN WASTWOD I B WANTIN MY MONEYS BAK!
And last time I checked, in EVERY C&C GAME the artillery units are lightly armored. They're not meant to be used in a firefight. This can be negated in Ren to a large extent through skillful driving and engineer support.
Are you going to take out the engineers' ability to repair vehicles and players too? That wasn't in C&C. :rolleyes:
Wait, you probably will, since all your ideas so far turn it from Renegade into ACKgade which is strikingly similar to RenAlert. If these issues are so problematic, and you fixed them all in RenAlert, then why not just play it?
I still don't get what your beef with the 1000-cred snipers is. Change their point scale so they don't get as much for shooting armor, as it's a bug, and leave the rest intact. It takes an aircraft 4-5 machine gun shots to kill a Havoc or Sakura, in the same time that the sniper can get ONE shot off. If you're getting that torn up by snipers I honestly feel it's a case of user error. I've also never had a huge problem killing them with regular soldiers, and even if you do die, they get 2 points. WOW GAMEBRAKINN FUKEN HAXX.
WOL: priestofb
FUD Online for Renegade character details
The preceding post was sponsored by FUD.
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[Updated on: Mon, 26 April 2004 00:00] Report message to a moderator |
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