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| Department of Defense cancels the Commanche [message #68350] |
Mon, 23 February 2004 16:53   |
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SuperFlyingEngi
Messages: 1756
Registered: November 2003
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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They're cancelling the Comanche, not the Apache.
Personally, I thought the Comanche was really cool, but I guess it didn't have enough of a purpose to make it that much better than the Apache.
Or they didn't give the government enough "insurance".
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- Theodore Roosevelt (1918)
"The danger to political dissent is acute where the Government attempts to act under so vague a concept as the power to protect "domestic security." Given the difficulty of defining the domestic security interest, the danger of abuse in acting to protect that interest becomes apparent. --U.S. Supreme Court decision (407 U.S. 297 (1972)
The Liberal Media At Work
An objective look at media partisanship
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| Department of Defense cancels the Commanche [message #68372] |
Mon, 23 February 2004 18:11 |
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DBB
Messages: 364
Registered: March 2003
Karma: 0
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Commander |
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Well the commanche wouldve been a great addition to our arsenal, but with the Apache and Cobras its purpose would not nearly be as useful. With the new UAV's being flown and updated with armor and ammo, the helicopter is eventually going to become less and less of a combat support tool. It will prolly always remain at large in transportation. But, think about it, you got a multi million dollar 'copter being fire at by RPGs and small arms during combat, one simple bullet can take that chopper down. I say we perfect the Apache and Cobra, then move onto another attack helicopter if they feel the need too. I still wouldve loved to see it put in combat situations, but sadly the cost of this bad boy was far more then its combat worth possibly couldve been!
By the way, the F-22 and JSF will more then likely NOT be cancelled, simply due to the fact that future wars are going to heavily depend on air sorties, as does our current wars. In about 10 years, an F-16 isn't going to dominate our competitors aircrafts. Irregardless of how skillfull our pilots are, 10 years of old technology vs 10 years of new technology and at least a somewhat skillfull pilot = danger. Anyway, dont sweat it, its prolly just a massive cover up so the commies think we cancelled it! 
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| Department of Defense cancels the Commanche [message #68375] |
Mon, 23 February 2004 18:26 |
hareman
Messages: 340
Registered: May 2003
Karma: 0
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The Cobras are insome cases using airframes that are almost 30+ years old. The Commanche is needed if nothing else than to validate new technology. The F22 could be Axed simply for the reasons as you gave with the commanche. Why is it needed when The F15 is still so much more superior.
We saw the Seawolf class cancelled because of the success of the Los Angeles sub class. And so we have no replacement in the production pipline to replace the early Los Angeles that we have already retired and the Viginia class is 10 years from deployment in any signifincant numbers as only four have been ordered.
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| Department of Defense cancels the Commanche [message #68381] |
Mon, 23 February 2004 18:43 |
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DBB
Messages: 364
Registered: March 2003
Karma: 0
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Commander |
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Ships arent nearly used as they once where in WW2. I dont forsee any major naval battles in the future, especially with all the air transportation that is provided now adays.
An airplane and a helicopter are totally seperate things. We decrease the number of lives lost significantly with planes dropping all of their smart bombs, while with most helicopters the lost of life that is decreased isnt nearly as high.The reason is that we lose a lot more of our troops in crashes. The helicopters that are deployed in Iraq and Afghanistan are not doing to hot. Most of the Cobra attack pilots could barely find their target due to the dastardly sandstorms. The convoy on RCT-7 and RCT-1which held the 1st 2nd and 3rd Marine divisions were attacked by their own friendly fire. The attack helicopters over in Iraq were providing a lot more of a reconnissance mission then actually attacking the feedeyean that were held up behind civilians and popping out of corners to fire a stray RPG or AK. The copters plain and simply could not fire back, because of the civilian casualities that would occur. Instead they would just fly around that target area until the Marines could get in their and find them. Im not trying to denounce the importance of attack helicopters in a war state, but I just do not think that the Commanche wouldve been an extremely wise use of our money. Im pretty satisfied with the Apaches and Cobras dealings. As far as you stated with the Cobras 30+ year old airframe, its been touched up here and there, just think about what could be done upgrading that beast even more? Save a lot more money, and get about the same results. Thats just my opinion though, you are right in your own way, and Im right in mine! Were both right!
The F-15 will not be superior to the final build of the F-22. Plain and simple. Give the F-22 a couple of D' and E' versions and youll see one of the most formidable planes in the world.
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| Department of Defense cancels the Commanche [message #68413] |
Mon, 23 February 2004 19:53 |
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DBB
Messages: 364
Registered: March 2003
Karma: 0
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Commander |
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Id rather spend our money on war, rather then a cure for cancer. Why? We have private parties spending money and doing research on cancer. Cuz we all know that having a cure for cancer will stop another 9-11. Im sorry, but id rather have the greatest military in the world and be able to defend and liberate others, rather then just curing. And before you say a smart remark about cancer, let me fill you in my uncle and grandmothe both have cancer. Both very serious. I know various others that are close to me as well with cancer, some not so serious. While it needs to be cured ASAP, spending all of our money distinctly on that isnt going to defend our liberties to do that research. But like I said, thats what private funding is for.
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| Department of Defense cancels the Commanche [message #68424] |
Mon, 23 February 2004 20:32 |
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NukeIt15
Messages: 987
Registered: February 2003
Location: Out to lunch
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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| Quote: |
Even though the Comanche is dead, Army officials said they would ask the defense industry to propose plans to build a new armed reconnaissance aircraft. Lt. Gen. Richard Cody said no details are available except that an Army study determined a need for 368 new armed scout helicopters.
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Let's hope they have the foresight to incorporate elements of the Commanche into whatever new project comes down the pipe. That particular chopper was too good and too expensive to simply throw the whole concept out. For those of us who enjoy simulators, however, the Commanche is still alive and kicking. 
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The F22 could be Axed simply for the reasons as you gave with the commanche. Why is it needed when The F15 is still so much more superior.
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Unfortunately, the current interceptor variant of the Eagle, the F-15C(as opposed to the two-seat attack variant, F-15E), is outperformed by the Raptor. The F-15 Remains the FASTEST operational fighter (top speed of about mach 2.5), but the F-22 has better endurance, being able to achieve supersonic speeds without the need for fuel-inefficient afterburners. The F-22 is also much stealthier, not only incorporating elements of the F-177 and B-2 aircraft, but also using all internal hardpoints. The Eagle is a 30 year old design, and it is remarkable that it remains the worlds best fighter, with a record to prove it- not a single F-15 has been shot down in combat to my knowledge. The F-22 is simply the better aircraft (this coming from a complete F-15 junkie), and just as the F-15 replaced the F-4 as the Air Force's top fighter, the F-22 will replace the F-15.
"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. Horrid mischief would ensue were (the law-abiding) deprived of the use of them." - Thomas Paine
Remember, kids: illiteracy is cool. If you took the time to read this, you are clearly a loser who will never get laid. You've been warned.
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| Department of Defense cancels the Commanche [message #68505] |
Tue, 24 February 2004 10:33 |
hareman
Messages: 340
Registered: May 2003
Karma: 0
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Pete it was develoing and validating the tech that took all that time. From what Iunderstand the fabrication process alone for the body took thom 5 years to lick. Bit; in any case, this is another example of our procuement process at its best.
I am beginning to think each President's administration has the idea that if they didn;t start it they will be the ones to kill it <sigh>
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| Department of Defense cancels the Commanche [message #68511] |
Tue, 24 February 2004 10:52 |
KIRBY098
Messages: 1546
Registered: February 2003
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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| hareman |
Pete it was develoing and validating the tech that took all that time. From what Iunderstand the fabrication process alone for the body took thom 5 years to lick. Bit; in any case, this is another example of our procuement process at its best.
I am beginning to think each President's administration has the idea that if they didn;t start it they will be the ones to kill it <sigh>
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20 years to develop one helo?
Are you sure you want to say this was a bad idea?
8 billion dollars, and 20 years, and still no helo.
If I did my job that poorly I would be fired too.
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| Department of Defense cancels the Commanche [message #68514] |
Tue, 24 February 2004 11:01 |
hareman
Messages: 340
Registered: May 2003
Karma: 0
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Recruit |
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No there are at leadt half a dozen prototypes and if you thing that is bad you should read the book on the development of the Bradley Fighting vehicle lmao
The Pentagon Wars: Reformers Challenge the Old Guard
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| Department of Defense cancels the Commanche [message #68523] |
Tue, 24 February 2004 11:41 |
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DragonFg
Messages: 187
Registered: August 2003
Karma: 0
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Recruit |
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DBB I am pretty impressed by the knowledge you have, as well as many other people here.
I am a fighter airplane nut so if you don't want to hear a bunch of jibber jabber you might as well stop reading now.
I hate to see the Commanche go, but it is done. I don't know very much about it except it has greater flying capabilities then the Apache or Cobra, and it incorporates stealth. Of course you might consider the UAVs being made that can be used for recon the same way. Plus, the Apache has superior firepower, not limited by the useage of internal weapons bay. So I understand why the RAH-66 is being cancelled.
If I recall correctly, the original plan was to build 700+ F-22s to be put into service sometime in 2002. Well after a couple of cutback we're at somewhere around 400 planes for service entry in 2005. But the F-22 won't be cancelled, we need it to maintain air superiority. The F-15s of today's battle are still very capable, and our pilots are the best trained in the world. However, Russian fighters of today can perform manuvers that far exceed what the F-15 can do. That's one reason we need the F-22.
In comparing the F-15 and the F-22 we find than the F-15 has a greater top speed (Mach 2.5) than the F-22 (Mach 1.78). However, if you're talking about cruising speed the F-15 is sub-Mach 1, while the F-22 can cuise at Mach 1.58. But there is one big advantage the F-22 has that no other country emulate, stealth. The F-22 is the only true stleath fighter. It can shoot down enemy planes without the enemy knowing they are there.
The X-35 JSF will be the strike aircraft of tomorrow. The F-22 is more capable than the JSF in almost every way, except the JSF has a MUCH lower price tag. It will be used by the the Air Force, the Marines, and the Navy.
"Behind every great man is a woman, and behind her is his wife."
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| Department of Defense cancels the Commanche [message #68525] |
Tue, 24 February 2004 11:46 |
KIRBY098
Messages: 1546
Registered: February 2003
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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| warranto |
| hareman |
Actually teh fastest operational Fighter is the Mig-31
but if Bush can cancel these programs so that Halliburton can provide our Troops with $20 lunches he will.
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Only because the Arrow was cancelled. 1957, and the ability to go faster than mach 2, perhaps mach 3. If the technology had developed from that point, imagine what speeds Canadian Aircraft would be capable of today.
Stupid Canadian Government.
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Canada is a COUNTRY? And it has a MILITARY?
Whoa!
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