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Re: don't ask don't tell [message #441863 is a reply to message #441534]

Fri, 24 December 2010 22:58

NukeIt15
Messages: 987
Registered: February 2003
Location: Out to lunch

Karma:

Colonel

I rather think that, aside from the ones that degenerate into flame-fests, some of the most informative discussions about controversial issues happen on forums not dedicated to the subject at hand. The reason is because, lacking a narrowly-defined topic, the discussion is more likely to go off on related-but-not-on-topic tangents... and people are more likely to say what's really on their minds instead of trying to sound reasonable. Nobody is afraid of being banned because they punched a prominent member's buttons... especially here. Punching peoples' buttons has been pretty much the way of life on Renforums since the bloody place came into being, even back when Westwood was running the place.

And now that I've spouted that bit of touchy-feely crap...

The fundies in here are full of shit. Sorry if I offended anybody, but... well, nobody has a right not to be offended. And that is the real heart of the issue, isn't it?

Because ultimately, that's what it all comes down to- people getting offended at the idea that something that disgusts them (homosexuality) is allowed to be shown the light of day. Yes, I'm well aware that it was considered taboo for most of human history (we have no way of knowing before history began, do we?)... but we live in a culture that accepts "get the government to ban it" as an acceptable way to hide the things that bother us. It is long past time for human society as a whole to grow the hell up and get over that shit.

I consider the issues of gay rights and censorship to be inextricably linked. Both revolve around the idea that, if the majority (or as the case may be, the minority with all the power) doesn't like something, they can make it go away. History tells us that this doesn't work- and tells us this over and over and over so many times you'd think you were listening to a broken record.

Forget about nature. It isn't about nature, or reproduction. Putting aside the fact that other species have demonstrated homosexual behavior, how many things do humans do that has nothing to do with our most basic biological purpose? How many of those things could potentially be offensive to a large and vocal minority of the population?

Now, how many of those things have any provable effect whatsoever on people who have access to, but choose not to use, participate, read, or have anything to do with those things? Whatever that very, very small number may turn out to be, homosexuality is not on the list. Being around gay people doesn't make you gay. Knowing that people are gay doesn't make you gay. Watching gay people having gay sex doesn't make you gay. So far, the only two ways to become gay are to either be born that way, or to make a conscious choice to engage in a homosexual lifestyle.

Any free society depends on the rule of liberty, not law, for its continued existence. Laws can be made and enforced in error; to deny that fact is to deny reality. The idea that a free person has the right to do as a free person will, without any interference, so long as they do not infringe upon the rights of another free person- that is fundamental. And thus we come back to the root of the issue: that, because it is so inevitable that everyone will be offended by something and there is something out there to offend everyone, no one has a right not to be offended. The fact that a person is gay may offend you, what they do may offend you, what they say may offend you... but none of that matters worth a damn.

What matters is that you would impose your will upon another free person so that you won't have to be offended by them. You are saying, in effect, that you are not the master of your own eyes- that you do not have the ability to simply look away from things that bother you, and that you do not have the courage to face them. You want the things- and the people- that bother you to be made to go away. No, you're not saying they should all be killed. You're saying that they should all be silent because you don't want to be offended. Whether it is because of your religion, or a phobia, or just a simple dislike of the mental image of two men buttfucking, ultimately you want gays to go away- by law- because you can't or won't handle the fact that they exist.

And you've got no problem with offending anyone else without realizing or caring about the hypocrisy of it all. And you know what? You've got every right to believe and say all that bunk, because the gays and gay rights advocates don't have a right not to be offended by you. But you do not have the right to impose your will as policy- and they do have the right to impose their will as policy. They have that right because their will does not infringe upon any of your rights, while your will does infringe upon theirs.

Am I getting up on my high horse? Yep. Can't deny it... because sometimes it is possible for one point of view to be right, and another to be wrong. There's no sense apologizing for that; the tides are changing. Sooner or later, humanity will get over this foolishness. I just hope I'm still alive to see that happen, at least in my own country if not the world.

"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. Horrid mischief would ensue were (the law-abiding) deprived of the use of them." - Thomas Paine

Remember, kids: illiteracy is cool. If you took the time to read this, you are clearly a loser who will never get laid. You've been warned.

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[Message index]

		don't ask don't tell By: Starbuzzz on Thu, 16 December 2010 11:07
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: nikki6ixx on Thu, 16 December 2010 12:29
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: snpr1101 on Thu, 16 December 2010 18:17
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Dover on Fri, 17 December 2010 00:19
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: R315r4z0r on Thu, 16 December 2010 13:23
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: bmr_71 on Thu, 16 December 2010 19:54
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: R315r4z0r on Thu, 16 December 2010 20:12
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: InternetThug on Fri, 17 December 2010 08:34
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: R315r4z0r on Fri, 17 December 2010 12:30
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Pyr0man1c on Fri, 17 December 2010 14:41
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: nikki6ixx on Thu, 16 December 2010 13:30
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Spoony on Thu, 16 December 2010 15:35
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: bmr_71 on Thu, 16 December 2010 22:46
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Crimson on Fri, 17 December 2010 05:49
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: snpr1101 on Fri, 17 December 2010 07:08
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: bmr_71 on Fri, 17 December 2010 09:53
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Fri, 17 December 2010 11:09
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: CarrierII on Fri, 17 December 2010 13:22
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Tunaman on Sat, 18 December 2010 04:33
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: bmr_71 on Sat, 18 December 2010 09:16
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: R315r4z0r on Sat, 18 December 2010 13:12
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: bmr_71 on Sat, 18 December 2010 13:19
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Jerad2142 on Wed, 05 January 2011 15:14
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: R315r4z0r on Wed, 05 January 2011 16:25
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Jerad2142 on Wed, 05 January 2011 16:43
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: bmr_71 on Sat, 18 December 2010 13:23
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: R315r4z0r on Sat, 18 December 2010 13:57
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Pyr0man1c on Sat, 18 December 2010 14:34
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: R315r4z0r on Sat, 18 December 2010 15:50
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Tue, 21 December 2010 11:50
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Herr Surth on Sat, 18 December 2010 15:54
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: GEORGE ZIMMER on Mon, 20 December 2010 23:57
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: NukeIt15 on Tue, 21 December 2010 00:46
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Starbuzzz on Tue, 21 December 2010 04:38
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: snpr1101 on Tue, 21 December 2010 06:15
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Starbuzzz on Tue, 21 December 2010 06:42
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Pyr0man1c on Tue, 21 December 2010 12:10
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: InternetThug on Tue, 21 December 2010 15:20
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: R315r4z0r on Tue, 21 December 2010 15:50
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Spoony on Wed, 22 December 2010 08:05
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: InternetThug on Tue, 21 December 2010 19:34
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Pyr0man1c on Wed, 22 December 2010 03:51
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: snpr1101 on Wed, 22 December 2010 04:20
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: R315r4z0r on Tue, 21 December 2010 21:04
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: InternetThug on Tue, 21 December 2010 22:16
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Rocko on Tue, 21 December 2010 22:22
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: appshot on Wed, 22 December 2010 02:25
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: InternetThug on Wed, 22 December 2010 09:54
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Spoony on Wed, 22 December 2010 10:30
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Wed, 22 December 2010 10:32
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: R315r4z0r on Wed, 22 December 2010 17:52
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Starbuzzz on Wed, 22 December 2010 22:08
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Wed, 22 December 2010 22:52
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Starbuzzz on Thu, 23 December 2010 17:01
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Thu, 23 December 2010 21:15
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Starbuzzz on Fri, 24 December 2010 08:14
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Spoony on Fri, 24 December 2010 08:29
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Dover on Fri, 24 December 2010 10:15
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Fri, 24 December 2010 12:11
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: R315r4z0r on Thu, 23 December 2010 21:59
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: SSADMVR on Wed, 22 December 2010 10:12
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Herr Surth on Wed, 22 December 2010 10:21
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: InternetThug on Wed, 22 December 2010 10:38
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Wed, 22 December 2010 10:47
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Pyr0man1c on Wed, 22 December 2010 10:57
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Starbuzzz on Wed, 22 December 2010 22:09
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Pyr0man1c on Thu, 23 December 2010 02:42
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Spoony on Wed, 22 December 2010 16:10
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Rocko on Wed, 22 December 2010 16:18
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: snpr1101 on Wed, 22 December 2010 17:30
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: InternetThug on Wed, 22 December 2010 22:16
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: InternetThug on Wed, 22 December 2010 23:37
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Hitman on Wed, 22 December 2010 23:43
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Spoony on Thu, 23 December 2010 04:05
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Herr Surth on Thu, 23 December 2010 04:11
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Hitman on Thu, 23 December 2010 05:35
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Rocko on Thu, 23 December 2010 16:37
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: InternetThug on Thu, 23 December 2010 18:14
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Starbuzzz on Thu, 23 December 2010 18:20
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: InternetThug on Thu, 23 December 2010 18:36
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Spoony on Thu, 23 December 2010 21:12
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: InternetThug on Thu, 23 December 2010 22:45
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: CarrierII on Fri, 24 December 2010 01:30
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: snpr1101 on Fri, 24 December 2010 01:45
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Pyr0man1c on Sun, 09 January 2011 03:37
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Starbuzzz on Sun, 09 January 2011 12:58
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: R315r4z0r on Sun, 09 January 2011 15:46
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Dover on Fri, 24 December 2010 07:01
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Pyr0man1c on Fri, 24 December 2010 11:13
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Pyr0man1c on Fri, 24 December 2010 11:16
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: R315r4z0r on Fri, 24 December 2010 14:00
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Fri, 24 December 2010 21:48
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Rocko on Fri, 24 December 2010 18:22
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Dover on Sat, 25 December 2010 10:51
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Sat, 25 December 2010 14:28
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Starbuzzz on Fri, 31 December 2010 09:55
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Fri, 31 December 2010 16:05
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Starbuzzz on Fri, 31 December 2010 19:06
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Fri, 31 December 2010 23:35
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: NukeIt15 on Fri, 24 December 2010 22:58
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Rocko on Sat, 25 December 2010 01:30
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: liquidv2 on Sat, 25 December 2010 07:20
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: liquidv2 on Fri, 31 December 2010 19:30
		pulling in and out again... By: Muad Dib15 on Fri, 31 December 2010 22:29
		Re: pulling in and out again... By: nikki6ixx on Sat, 01 January 2011 10:50
		Re: pulling in and out again... By: Dover on Wed, 05 January 2011 11:43
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: InternetThug on Wed, 05 January 2011 17:56
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Jerad2142 on Thu, 06 January 2011 17:24
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Wed, 05 January 2011 21:47
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: R315r4z0r on Wed, 05 January 2011 22:17
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Wed, 05 January 2011 23:20
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: R315r4z0r on Thu, 06 January 2011 00:47
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Starbuzzz on Thu, 06 January 2011 03:00
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Thu, 06 January 2011 08:41
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Jerad2142 on Thu, 06 January 2011 17:29
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: InternetThug on Wed, 05 January 2011 22:25
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: R315r4z0r on Wed, 05 January 2011 22:32
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Pyr0man1c on Wed, 05 January 2011 22:47
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: InternetThug on Wed, 05 January 2011 23:53
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: InternetThug on Thu, 06 January 2011 11:11
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: R315r4z0r on Thu, 06 January 2011 11:40
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Pyr0man1c on Thu, 06 January 2011 12:44
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: CarrierII on Thu, 06 January 2011 14:44
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: R315r4z0r on Thu, 06 January 2011 15:58
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: appshot on Thu, 06 January 2011 15:30
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: bmr_71 on Thu, 06 January 2011 18:33
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: R315r4z0r on Thu, 06 January 2011 19:22
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: nikki6ixx on Fri, 07 January 2011 09:32
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Pyr0man1c on Fri, 07 January 2011 14:46
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Starbuzzz on Fri, 07 January 2011 19:30
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Fri, 07 January 2011 20:07
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Starbuzzz on Fri, 07 January 2011 21:16
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: R315r4z0r on Fri, 07 January 2011 21:24
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Starbuzzz on Fri, 07 January 2011 21:55
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: InternetThug on Fri, 07 January 2011 22:00
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Fri, 07 January 2011 23:09
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Starbuzzz on Sat, 08 January 2011 08:21
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Sat, 08 January 2011 11:24
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Muad Dib15 on Sat, 08 January 2011 14:58
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Starbuzzz on Sat, 08 January 2011 15:42
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Sat, 08 January 2011 17:37
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: CarrierII on Sat, 08 January 2011 09:21
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: kadoosh on Sat, 08 January 2011 09:30
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Spoony on Sat, 08 January 2011 15:53
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: HaTe on Sat, 08 January 2011 16:13
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: grant89uk on Sun, 09 January 2011 09:33
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: CarrierII on Sun, 09 January 2011 13:45
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Pyr0man1c on Sun, 09 January 2011 14:43
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: CarrierII on Mon, 10 January 2011 10:37
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Mon, 10 January 2011 11:01
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Pyr0man1c on Mon, 10 January 2011 13:21
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Herr Surth on Mon, 10 January 2011 12:18
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Mon, 10 January 2011 13:22
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Rocko on Mon, 10 January 2011 18:20
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Starbuzzz on Mon, 10 January 2011 22:23
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: nikki6ixx on Tue, 11 January 2011 00:10
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Tue, 11 January 2011 01:43
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: CarrierII on Tue, 11 January 2011 02:58
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: reborn on Tue, 11 January 2011 04:41
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Herr Surth on Tue, 11 January 2011 05:36
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Spoony on Tue, 11 January 2011 06:02
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: CarrierII on Tue, 11 January 2011 07:35
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Spoony on Tue, 11 January 2011 07:56
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: reborn on Tue, 11 January 2011 08:17
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: CarrierII on Tue, 11 January 2011 09:38
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Spoony on Tue, 11 January 2011 11:09
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: reborn on Wed, 12 January 2011 06:12
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Spoony on Wed, 12 January 2011 06:24
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: reborn on Wed, 12 January 2011 07:59
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Spoony on Wed, 12 January 2011 11:28
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: CarrierII on Wed, 12 January 2011 13:17
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Spoony on Wed, 12 January 2011 14:06
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: CarrierII on Tue, 11 January 2011 12:03
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Muad Dib15 on Tue, 11 January 2011 22:30
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Tue, 11 January 2011 23:51
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Spoony on Wed, 12 January 2011 04:59
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Wed, 12 January 2011 06:54
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: R315r4z0r on Wed, 12 January 2011 16:12
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: reborn on Wed, 12 January 2011 23:39
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Spoony on Thu, 13 January 2011 01:18
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: reborn on Thu, 13 January 2011 01:49
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Spoony on Thu, 13 January 2011 03:30
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Pyr0man1c on Thu, 13 January 2011 03:53
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: reborn on Thu, 13 January 2011 04:54
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Pyr0man1c on Thu, 13 January 2011 02:37
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: reborn on Thu, 13 January 2011 02:49
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Pyr0man1c on Thu, 13 January 2011 03:01

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