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it's interesting you're immovably focused on this part of the statement as opposed to either of the two more important parts, 1: the anti-pointsfix crowd had already been caught rigging these polls, 2: nobody important at clanwars ever said that poll was worth a damn thing, whereas it was made clear that the debate thread was central in determining policy.

what i still can't understand is why you would do something that everyone disagreed with
for example the soul case, had he just been allowed to play then clanwars.cc wouldn't have been breathing down your neck about the Renegade league

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this is because you're a fucking idiot who can't or won't understand a really simple but really crucial point.

you don't care whether or not your playerbase is happy
you care about what you'd rather have based on what you think is right, even if that means hosting an empty league
what do you think i don't understand?

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the longer your list is of people who want a pointsbugged ladder, the sadder it is that not a single one of them could give enough of a shit to provide one themselves. you keep calling me a douche for running the league the way i think it should go... how stupid are you? why have you never called EVERYBODY ELSE ON RENEGADE a douche for not giving enough of a shit to provide a league at all? you really are thick if this has never occurred to you, even if i hadn't carefully tried to spell it out to your dumb ass over and over and over and over again.

you're rude!
they're douchebags because they would rather you run the original points than the pointmod in your league?

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i'd rather call it a fact than a law.

why is everything you say fact?

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again, this is a really sad attempt to shift the fault. the reason nobody other than me hosted a league is because nobody could give a shit about the clan community. even when they admit to not being able to care enough - as simpee said - or even when they say that they would not lower themselves to hosting something for renegade - as orca said - you seem intent on thinking that what's easily explained by apathy and selfishness is actually caused by something noble.

if that's the way it actually was then i'd agree with you
i just have a very hard time believing that everyone in cw.cc was like that
and i think that had that been the case you wouldn't have hosted it at all

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i know you're probably having a hard time grasping the unbelievably pathetic low to which the clanwars.cc community sunk during the Soul episode, and i understand that. still, everything i've said about it is true. it was me and blkst0rm vs the entire clanwars community on an issue, we were dead right and they were dead wrong. this is a much sharper divide than the pointsfix poll you're talking about. and they were so catastrophically wrong that if they'd been "listened to" (obeyed), there's a very real chance the entire league would have been shut down. and, as i've said, because they weren't obeyed they actively tried to sabotage the league by using an exploit to get as many people banned as possible. getting the entire league banned seemed preferable to them than allowing spoony and blkst0rm to ban someone who was pointpushing and photoshopping screenshots. remember this when you talk about how it's spoony vs everyone else at clanwars, cos whenever this happens i have a history of being right and they have a history of being crashingly wrong.

would it have been the end of the world had you let the clanwars players play with their pointpushing best friend and avoided the whole scenario altogether? you fought the good fight but was it worth it?

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i've purposely left my original statement in the quote box, so everyone can see the point i made illustrated again by your reply to it. look at the point i made, about how i just can't get you to show the slightest reaction to incredibly important things, and yet all you can focus on is counting how many people are on which side.

it's because i don't believe you when you say the only people against using the pointmod in clanwars were simpee and his named band of rapist cheaters

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then perhaps you can explain the Yes and Don't Care votes to the poll, given the fact that added together they outnumbered the No votes (and also given the fact that I didn't waste my time voting at all). we're being very generous and assuming that the anti-pointsfix crowd DIDN'T rig that poll, which would make a change. the result would be the majority either liking it or not minding it.

hmm?

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i would think it sad you fell for that lie, but you fell for all the others.

i didn't think either way about whether whiskey liked the pointmod or not, i just understood how they could be correct

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whiskey was originally against the pointsfix, then changed his mind. the anti-pointsfix crowd were simply intolerant of anyone who disagreed with them (just look at the pathetic way they've continually treated me). there'd just HAVE to be some other explanation for whiskey's opinion than "he thinks this is a good thing for the league"

i understand that
that's why i said it could have gone either way, i didn't know for sure

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i certainly gave them every opportunity.

if every clanwars.cc member enjoyed openly engaging in debates on the forums it would have worked more the way you'd intended it to

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much, much less of a douchebag than you, as i've tried over and over and over again to explain

how rude!
if i ran a league and everyone was telling me one thing i'd more likely than not side with them
though if what you tell me is true it's further from everyone than i thought
and i may be mistaken

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consider how many times you've called me a douche for running the league in the best way i can, and then look at your own wheedling excuses for why you haven't said anything bad about some extraordinarily fucked up behaviour from the people you've been defending.

you've said enough about them yourself, and they haven't drawn any hate from me
i don't agree with how they did things but i wasn't there for any of it
had i been i'd probably say the same thing you are

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yes, since at no point from the beginning of the episode until now has it been demonstrated that they even existed

clanwars.cc members that didn't rig polls? i'm sure they existed

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you surely realise that there was a point in time at which i went from not being a clanwars admin to being a clanwars admin, and therefore a point in time when i was a clanwars admin who had zero practical experience.

it's because you wrote strategy guides for maps like Field

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no assumptions are necessary, you can just look at the facts. i attempted to recruit for renadmins many times, and the overwhelming majority of the community either didn't apply or did apply and turned out not be diligent enough to spend the very small amount of time it takes to do the AR's. i can count on one hand the number of people from the clanwars community who turned out to be good admins willing to put the effort in. i'm also more aware than most of the extraordinarily pathetic way the clanwars.cc community treats the admins; most of your moderators would quit within a week or so.

most of my moderators probably wouldn't even want to be in that environment because they're from a public community
but that's probably true

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this is just plain wrong. clanwars died when *i* stopped playing, and i stopped playing because i eventually reached the point at which the unbelievably pathetic nature of the clanwars.cc community made me not want to spend any more effort on them (putting me down to the same level as everyone else who didn't run a league for them)

i think it would have been swell of you to keep doing it, despite their abuse, because it was the right thing
at least something you could honestly argue was the right thing, and eventually they would have realized it and some would have it in them to thank you
you would have been a Renesaint

Quote:

and the need to lie to everybody for about a week when he was under investigation, including his own clan. i'd call lying to your own clan about the worst thing you can do in the clan world, and that wasn't even the first time he'd pointpushed.

yet they still loved and forgave him
if it's an unforgivable sin why did they almost unanimously want him allowed back in?

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it's not strange at all, why would someone continue to spend their resources for such a cesspool of a community?

that line made me laugh
it doesn't seem like such a cesspool to me, lots of people enjoyed the years they spent there and the fun they had
i'm sure it had low points but i don't think they would have been reason enough to close it down, based on what i've heard and seen
then again IM STILL NO CW.CC ADMIN SO IDK

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that thing i kept telling you about some maps being blatantly unfair, so unfair that certain players would leave if they got the bad side.

aren't there still some maps like that with the pointmod on? like, say, mesa

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then these exact same people later turn up crying about how they think mesa is unfair with the pointsfix, it's enough to make a cat laugh

why wouldn't you just play simpee then and shut him up, your cat would have been laffin

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apology accepted. you realise that everything you just said could be said about the soul episode?

sure, but had you just said Ok you guys are stupid, but at least you've accepted it so we're allowing this pointpushing baby-rapist scumbag Soul to play

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let's be clear that in being so encouraging of debate on the subject i was doing the community yet another favour they didn't deserve. the fact that they either couldn't say why their point bug would be better for the league's fairness than the original renegade points system, or that they were too scared of losing an argument if they had said so (jesus, how pathetic is that) is all on them. it's not a criticism to say that i was so diligent in reading everything everybody said about the issue and responding to every single post; you can make it sound bad but it isn't.

clanwars people are overly competitive, and a lot of them take losing pretty hard
thus the struggles you've had over the years
no they couldn't post why it would increase fairness, but they did try anyways
had the entire league wanted it left on you wouldn't have because they can't prove it increases fairness
what do you lose by letting them play that way? it makes them happy
you're right and everyone is happy at the same time
i think that's what i would have done, but history has shown that that would have made me a bad cw.cc admin

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no, it wasn't. i kept saying that it was bollock-brainedly stupid to get points when you're doing fuck all damage; he said actually yes havocs do do damage, just not very much, and that explains why they get such massive points.

he got you good, you just didn't realize it

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i'm glad that after mentioning these sort of tactics again and again and again, you've finally managed to acknowledge it.

i don't agree; just because some polls in the history of cw.cc were rigged doesn't mean they were all rigged

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still, i wouldn't say that. you're the one putting all your faith in that poll thread

too much perhaps

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and yet even with your dumbass poll thread, you can add up the Yes and the Don't Mind Either Way votes to outnumber the Nos. but like i said, my argument never relied on counting the number of people who agreed with me; it's not so weak as yours.

i wasn't aware of the overall indifference
that or i just forgot or neglected to remember it
and it's not my poll thread, i never made a poll on cw.cc

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yes, it does. the one and only person from clanwars.cc who actually did do what i kept suggesting was whiskey, and he got no end of contempt for doing so.

what does that have to do with you saying no one gave a shit about clanwars.cc

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...that they like playing clanwars? that doesn't demonstrate a generous nature.

who said anything about generous? if they didn't give a shit they wouldn't post or ask things or participate at all

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i know nothing about coding at all, never stopped me. i've always found there to be two kinds of people in this world, people who get the fucking job done whatever the obstacles, and people who come back to you with excuses for why they didn't do it.

what about the people that die trying

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i might add that i offered several times to sell people a league and help them set it up.

there is no clanwars without spoony
if you haven't noticed people seem to want you around, even if they disagree with you

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if they don't even dare say so in the debate thread that's specifically there for the purpose, i don't think i can persuade myself to do what they want.

pfft, have a heart

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you're right about one thing, you're not me. you know fuck all about how to run a ladder, and you've never shown that you care enough about the clan community to put the effort into trying. yes, if nobody can explain why X is better than Y for a rule, nor can anybody refute my detailed assertions on why Y is better than X, we're going with Y and if this makes cheaters and compulsive liars angry, so much the better. if the league becoming more fair has the added effect of angering people who prefer the game not to be fair, this is a bonus rather than a drawback.

if that reduced the league to nothing would it be worth it in your eyes?

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again, anyone can see i did not say that. i suppose it's easier for you to pretend i said something i never said, than to face your own stupidity in placing all your faith in a poll by and for people who'd already proven their willingness to rig them.

erm

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i'm glad that after mentioning these sort of tactics again and again and again, you've finally managed to acknowledge it.

i feel like your statements contradict each other

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my position, by contrast, is very simple and has always been consistent: those polls are worth jack shit to me and always were. debate is what matters. if people lose the debate then i'm not likely to do what they say; and if people are too scared to participate in the debate for fear of losing (my god, how sad is that) then i'm even less likely to do what they say.

a lot of people don't enjoy debating or are no good at it
because they can't win you over with essays because they're incapable of writing them their opinions mean jack shit to you
seems kind of shitty to me

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you're better than this... deal with what i actually say, don't lower yourself into pretending i said things i obviously did not say.

trying to say and actually saying are two different things
from what i gather by your statements you're claiming that they are douchebags because they'd like their preferred settings used in clanwars over your proposed settings but won't actually go out and make their own league to do it

Quote:

and yet i'd be far less of a douchebag than everyone who wanted a pointbugged ladder and couldn't be bothered hosting one, and there's nothing you can say that'll change that. do yourself a favour, just admit you've lost this debate. there is no overcoming that argument.

i'm just trying to better understand you, call it what you want
i don't agree with that argument

Quote:

then what a pity that in all the overwhelming majority that supposedly wanted the point bug, not a single one could give enough of a shit to make that happen. they couldn't even pull together and do it. meanwhile the people who actually DID deliver the goods - me and whiskey - have gotten nothing but contempt for doing so.

that's untrue
from some people sure, but not all people
you believe that someone asking you to change what you're doing is a douchebag move if they're not willing to do it themselves? or is there more to it than that

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if you still haven't figured out by now that i couldn't give a shit which side of the argument majority is on, i don't think you ever will

back to the soul case, if it's everyone vs. you what do you lose by going with everyone
i'm actually interested in your thinking on that

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no, it doesn't. i'm doing them a favour by hosting them a league at all; they have no reason to expect to be run the way they like.

yeah but does it hurt to ask?

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this sentence is two words too long.

rude
and also mean

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oh dear, you're still under the impression that it was simpee and clearshot not playing any more than killed the league, as opposed to me not playing any more. if the events of the time when they were banned didn't convince you of the reality, how about when a new admin tried to revitalise the league recently with simpee and clearshot unbanned? i didn't play, despite being asked to all the time... and the league didn't fire up. the admin even gave people votes and choices on whether to use the point bug or not, and the league didn't fire up. ouch.

did they play either? probably not
and also, there is no clanwars without spoony
you're embedded in peoples' brains

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what a dumb thing to say

just because people don't post doesn't mean they don't have an opinion on something
if everyone is of the same opinion on something i don't get what you gain by dismissing all of them because you disagree with it
what are you left with then?

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nobody needed to, i was doing a perfectly good job winning the argument despite it being 1v7 or whatever.

write a strategy guide!
that or you were all alone, though like you said that does not matter

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i know you don't want to admit the simple fact that everyone who did speak up against it in the thread were cheaters and pointpushers and rulebreakers and compulsive liars, but it would be better if you just faced that simple fact.

you named everyone that posted in that topic and took a shit on them - this is the band of rapists i keep referring to
i have a hard time believing they're the only ones from cw.cc that wanted to use the original points over the pointmod

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what i said about him was true.

poor zell
i don't remember what it was but it seemed less bad than the rest

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you're dangerously close to a good point there

i think you're ignoring the point i made about expecting everyone to be respectable and mature in such a competitive environment
that's ok though

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no, clear and simpee on the jelly forum.

it doesn't seem like that serious of an assertion if you can easily deflect it

Quote:

it's interesting you're immovably focused on this part of the statement as opposed to either of the two more important parts, 1: the anti-pointsfix crowd had already been caught rigging these polls, 2: nobody important at clanwars ever said that poll was worth a damn thing, whereas it was made clear that the debate thread was central in determining policy.

what i still can't understand is why you would do something that everyone disagreed with[/quote]
i don't know why not. if you can understand why you - for example - didn't host a pointbugged ladder for everybody who wanted one, it isn't such a big step to realising that someone else might not want to either, especially when that someone has always been the most vocal opponent of the point bug.

of course, on that basis you might think that i deserve some credit for hosting a pointbugged ladder for such a long time despite my contempt for the bug, but no. no thanks are due there, only being called a "douche" when the problem is finally fixable.

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for example the soul case, had he just been allowed to play then clanwars.cc wouldn't have been breathing down your neck about the Renegade league

you've lost me there.

Quote:

Quote: this is because you're a fucking idiot who can't or won't understand a really simple but really crucial point. you don't care whether or not your playerbase is happy you care about what you'd rather have based on what you think is right, even if that means hosting an empty league what do you think i don't understand?

the fact that you have no credibility at all in criticising the way clanwars was run, because nobody else could be bothered running a clan ladder at all.

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Quote: the longer your list is of people who want a pointsbugged ladder, the sadder it is that not a single one of them could give enough of a shit to provide one themselves. you keep calling me a douche for running the league the way i think it should go... how stupid are you? why have you never called EVERYBODY ELSE ON RENEGADE a douche for not giving enough of a shit to provide a league at all? you really are thick if this has never occurred to you, even if i hadn't carefully tried to spell it out to your dumb ass over and over and over and over again. you're rude! they're douchebags because they would rather you run the original points than the pointmod in your league?

i'd rather be rude than a bald-faced liar, liquid. why do you keep ignoring what i say and then deliberately pretending i said things i absolutely did not say? i'd respect you more if you just admitted you lost the argument instead of trying to lie your way out of it.

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Quote: i'd rather call it a fact than a law. why is everything you say fact?

and there you go again. why do you keep lying? when did i say "everything i say is a fact"? why are you lying by claiming i said or think this?

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Quote: again, this is a really sad attempt to shift the fault. the reason nobody other than me hosted a league is because nobody could give a shit about the clan community. even when they admit to not being able to care enough - as simpee said - or even when they say that they would not lower themselves to hosting something for renegade - as orca said - you seem intent on thinking that what's easily explained by apathy and selfishness is actually caused by something noble. if that's the way it actually was then i'd agree with you

i suppose i'm glad to hear you would agree with me if only you were perceptive enough to see what's right in front of you.

Quote:

i just have a very hard time believing that everyone in cw.cc was like that and i think that had that been the case you wouldn't have hosted it at all

eh? one of the main reasons i hosted the clanwars ladder is because no fucker else on renegade could be bothered.

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would it have been the end of the world had you let the clanwars players play with their pointpushing best friend and avoided the whole scenario altogether?

there you have it, ladies and gentlemen. no rebuttal necessary, the quote speaks for itself.

Quote:

i've purposely left my original statement in the quote box, so everyone can see the point i made illustrated again by your reply to it. look at the point i made, about how i just can't get you to show the slightest reaction to incredibly important things, and yet all you can focus on is counting how many people are on which side.

it's because i don't believe you when you say the only people against using the pointmod in clanwars were simpee and his named band of rapist cheaters[/quote]
oh dear, you completely changed the subject.

Quote:

Quote: whiskey was originally against the pointsfix, then changed his mind. the anti-pointsfix crowd were simply intolerant of anyone who disagreed with them (just look at the pathetic way they've continually treated me). there'd just HAVE to be some other explanation for whiskey's opinion than "he thinks this is a good thing for the league" i understand that that's why i said it could have gone either way, i didn't know for sure

translation: you blindly swallowed what a small number of cheaters and compulsive liars told you, despite the fact that at the time i was carefully pointing out the simple truth of the matter

Quote:

Quote: i certainly gave them every opportunity. if every clanwars.cc member enjoyed openly engaging in debates on the forums it would have worked more the way you'd intended it to

who gives a shit whether anybody "enjoys" debates? if you want a rule changed, explain why. if you can't, don't expect it to be changed. who cares whether you enjoy trying to explain why?

Quote:

Quote: much, much less of a douchebag than you, as i've tried over and over and over again to explain how rude! if i ran a league and everyone was telling me one thing i'd more likely than not side with them though if what you tell me is true it's further from everyone than i thought and i may be mistaken

the "if i ran a league" is the critical bit. if you gave enough of a shit about clan gaming to host a league, here's how you'd run it! well, i suppose we have to take you at your word, such as it is, because you didn't give enough of a shit about clan gaming to host a league, though you've got plenty of criticism to aim at the only person who DID host one because it wasn't exactly as you wanted it to be.

your parents must have had a hell of time

Quote:

Quote: this is just plain wrong. clanwars died when *i* stopped playing, and i stopped playing because i eventually reached the point at which the unbelievably pathetic nature of the clanwars.cc community made me not want to spend any more effort on them (putting me down to the same level as everyone else who didn't run a league for them) i think it would have been swell of you to keep doing it, despite their abuse, because it was the right thing at least something you could honestly argue was the right thing, and eventually they would have realized it and some would have it in them to thank you you would have been a Renesaint

as would anyone who could be bothered hosting a pointbugged ladder when, according to you, everyone except me and whiskey wanted one.

what a pity that not a single person on the planet could, so instead you direct your anger at the only person who hosts a league and the only person who helps him run it.

if you can't see how phenomenally stupid you are being here, i just don't know how many more times i need to repeat it.

Quote:

Quote: and the need to lie to everybody for about a week when he was under investigation, including his own clan. i'd call lying to your own clan about the worst thing you can do in the clan world, and that wasn't even the first time he'd pointpushed. yet they still loved and forgave him if it's an unforgivable sin why did they almost unanimously want him allowed back in?

because they're a bunch of idiots? that's the short answer.

Quote:

Quote: it's not strange at all, why would someone continue to spend their resources for such a cesspool of a community? that line made me laugh it doesn't seem like such a cesspool to me, lots of people enjoyed the years they spent there and the fun they had i'm sure it had low points but i don't think they would have been reason enough to close it down, based on what i've heard and seen

i'm specifically talking about a specific period in its history (the Soul episode) - and at this point, the community truly was a cesspool.

Quote:

then again IM STILL NO CW.CC ADMIN SO IDK

you're almost on to something here. you don't run a clanwars league for these people so you don't know? indeed. so you know what it's like to not host a league for a bunch of idiots... so you ought to understand what might drive someone else to decide not to as well.

Quote:

Quote: that thing i kept telling you about some maps being blatantly unfair, so unfair that certain players would leave if they got the bad side. aren't there still some maps like that with the pointmod on? like, say, mesa

not with mesa2... guess who solved that problem?

again?

Quote:

Quote: then these exact same people later turn up crying about how they think mesa is unfair with the pointsfix, it's enough to make a cat laugh why wouldn't you just play simpee then and shut him up, your cat would have been laffin

why didn't you read my detailed and repeated explanations of why i wouldn't play him at the time?

Quote:

Quote: apology accepted. you realise that everything you just said could be said about the soul episode? sure, but had you just said Ok you guys are stupid, but at least you've accepted it so we're allowing this pointpushing baby-rapist scumbag Soul to play

again, i'll just leave this quote to stand on its own, it says a lot more than you meant it to

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no they couldn't post why it would increase fairness, but they did try anyways

you seem reluctant to finish your sentence. the last words that belong on the end are "but they were wrong"

Quote:

had the entire league wanted it left on you wouldn't have because they can't prove it increases fairness what do you lose by letting them play that way? it makes them happy

it might be the same thing you thought you would lose by hosting a pointbugged clan ladder for them?

Quote:

you're right and everyone is happy at the same time i think that's what i would have done, but history has shown that that would have made me a bad cw.cc admin

the fact you don't give enough of a shit about the clan world to host a league at all is enough to demonstrate you wouldn't be a good admin, we don't need much more evidence than that. we don't even need to notice your contempt for the only person who actually did and the renadmin at the time, though that helps form the picture too.

Quote:

Quote: i'm glad that after mentioning these sort of tactics again and again and again, you've finally managed to acknowledge it. i don't agree; just because some polls in the history of cw.cc were rigged doesn't mean they were all rigged

nobody said they were, though you lied and tried to make it sound like i did.

Quote:

Quote: and yet even with your dumbass poll thread, you can add up the Yes and the Don't Mind Either Way votes to outnumber the Nos. but like i said, my argument never relied on counting the number of people who agreed with me; it's not so weak as yours. i wasn't aware of the overall indifference that or i just forgot or neglected to remember it

or you were just overly focused on the small group of cheaters and pointpushers

Quote:

Quote: yes, it does. the one and only person from clanwars.cc who actually did do what i kept suggesting was whiskey, and he got no end of contempt for doing so. what does that have to do with you saying no one gave a shit about clanwars.cc

i can't tell if that's a serious question or not

Quote:

Quote: ...that they like playing clanwars? that doesn't demonstrate a generous nature. who said anything about generous? if they didn't give a shit they wouldn't post or ask things or participate at all

is there anything praiseworthy here?

Quote:

Quote: i know nothing about coding at all, never stopped me. i've always found there to be two kinds of people in this world, people who get the fucking job done whatever the obstacles, and people who come back to you with excuses for why they didn't do it. what about the people that die trying

never mind them, we're talking about the enormous number of people who never tried at all, for whom you're very quick to make excuses.

Quote:

Quote: i might add that i offered several times to sell people a league and help them set it up. there is no clanwars without spoony if you haven't noticed people seem to want you around, even if they disagree with you

would that explain the general enthusiasm when i was suspended because a cheater lied his way into my clan?

still, carry on making excuses for these people if you like. the fact remains that none of them came up with the goods, and you attacked the only person who did.

Quote:

Quote: if they don't even dare say so in the debate thread that's specifically there for the purpose, i don't think i can persuade myself to do what they want. pfft, have a heart

having a debate thread at all is more generous than they have a reason to expect; i could just say "here's spoony's decision the madder, live with it" and lock the thread, as i was advised by quite a few people to do instead of actually talking to these idiots.

Quote:

Quote: you're right about one thing, you're not me. you know fuck all about how to run a ladder, and you've never shown that you care enough about the clan community to put the effort into trying. yes, if nobody can explain why X is better than Y for a rule, nor can anybody refute my detailed assertions on why Y is better than X, we're going with Y and if this makes cheaters and compulsive liars angry, so much the better. if the league becoming more fair has the added effect of angering people who prefer the game not to be fair, this is a bonus rather than a drawback. if that reduced the league to nothing would it be worth it in your eyes?

i've been asked the same question before, but in a more threatening tone.

Quote:

Quote: again, anyone can see i did not say that. i suppose it's easier for you to pretend i said something i never said, than to face your own stupidity in placing all your faith in a poll by and for people who'd already proven their willingness to rig them. erm Quote: i'm glad that after mentioning these sort of tactics again and again and again, you've finally managed to acknowledge it. i feel like your statements contradict each other

no? that was the first time you seemed to acknowledge the fact that the anti-pointsfix crowd at clanwars had been caught rigging polls like that before, despite the innumerable times i kept pointing it out to you and you obviously didn't care.

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Quote: my position, by contrast, is very simple and has always been consistent: those polls are worth jack shit to me and always were. debate is what matters. if people lose the debate then i'm not likely to do what they say; and if people are too scared to participate in the debate for fear of losing (my god, how sad is that) then i'm even less likely to do what they say. a lot of people don't enjoy debating or are no good at it because they can't win you over with essays because they're incapable of writing them their opinions mean jack shit to you seems kind of shitty to me

i suspect this is wilful dishonesty on your part rather than simple stupidity. i didn't say you have to crafted a beautifully worded essay, i just said you had to actually be right.

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Quote: you're better than this... deal with what i actually say, don't lower yourself into pretending i said things i obviously did not say. trying to say and actually saying are two different things from what i gather by your statements you're claiming that they are douchebags because they'd like their preferred settings used in clanwars over your proposed settings but won't actually go out and make their own league to do it

this one seems more like simple stupidity than wilful dishonesty. i can only advise you to actually read and understand what i say before replying to it.

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Quote: and yet i'd be far less of a douchebag than everyone who wanted a pointbugged ladder and couldn't be bothered hosting one, and there's nothing you can say that'll change that. do yourself a favour, just admit you've lost this debate. there is no overcoming that argument. i'm just trying to better understand you, call it what you want i don't agree with that argument

i know you don't, because it logically makes you much more of a douche than i could ever be, and given the sheer number of times you've called me a douche for this reason it would make you the most colossal douche in the world.

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Quote: then what a pity that in all the overwhelming majority that supposedly wanted the point bug, not a single one could give enough of a shit to make that happen. they couldn't even pull together and do it. meanwhile the people who actually DID deliver the goods - me and whiskey - have gotten nothing but contempt for doing so. that's untrue from some people sure, but not all people

from you and from the people you were so enthusiastically defending, it was absolutely true.

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you believe that someone asking you to change what you're doing is a douchebag move if they're not willing to do it themselves?

no. but your standards for meeting the label "douche" are much lower than mine; they apply to someone who's going to great lengths to do you a favour if that favour isn't exactly the way you'd like it.

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Quote: if you still haven't figured out by now that i couldn't give a shit which side of the argument majority is on, i don't think you ever will back to the soul case, if it's everyone vs. you what do you lose by going with everyone i'm actually interested in your thinking on that

i see you've already forgotten about the whole "CLAN WARS would have shut the league down" bit, maybe because - as i said several times before - it's not something you are at all bothered by.
at one point shortbus (global admin) said that blkst0rm and i were the only good things about the renegade community (he was specifically talking about the clanwars section, before anybody here objects), precisely because we were actually going by rules and fairness and honesty instead of caving in to a bunch of idiots.

that's one thing we could have lost - the entire league.
aside from that, what a great precedent to set. "here's a situation where you can get away with pointpushing and photoshopping screenshots for fake wins, guys". tell me, do you think that would lead to more cheating or less? but maybe you don't care about rules being applied fairly, maybe you think punishments should not be decided by what your offence was but how many people like you instead. well, i don't give a shit about pleasing people, i'd rather be honest. so under your system, me - maybe the fairest and most honest player you could find - would come off much worse than someone with such a colourful history of cheating and pointpushing and lying to everyone about it (the admins, his opponents, his own clan).
i suppose if you could give enough of a shit to actually run a clan league, this is what it might look like.

what could i lose? dignity, for one thing. ever heard of it? where there is a question of cheating or fairplay or honesty, you will always find me on the right side. there are quite a lot of people in the renegade community for whom this can't be said.

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Quote: oh dear, you're still under the impression that it was simpee and clearshot not playing any more than killed the league, as opposed to me not playing any more. if the events of the time when they were banned didn't convince you of the reality, how about when a new admin tried to revitalise the league recently with simpee and clearshot unbanned? i didn't play, despite being asked to all the time... and the league didn't fire up. the admin even gave people votes and choices on whether to use the point bug or not, and the league didn't fire up. ouch. did they play either? probably not

nothing stopped them. they had a pretty good deal - a clanwars league with an admin other than spoony, and the chance to have votes and choices on whether to play with the point bug or not. if you believe everything simpee and clearshot ever said about clanwars, you would think they would have leapt at the chance. but maybe, like me, you don't believe everything simpee and clearshot say.

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just because people don't post doesn't mean they don't have an opinion on something if everyone is of the same opinion on something i don't get what you gain by dismissing all of them because you disagree with it what are you left with then?

"dismissing all of them because you disagree with it" is a dishonest way to phrase it. it's not as bad as "didn't listen to them", which was an outright lie you should be ashamed of yourself for saying as often as you did, but it's still dishonest. "dismissing them because you disagreed with them", no. i read everything they said and replied to them all. shame they were all WRONG. perhaps you don't like to think that anybody's opinion could actually be WRONG, liquid.

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Quote: what i said about him was true. poor zell i don't remember what it was but it seemed less bad than the rest

yes, it was. not everyone is as bad as robo or simpee.

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Quote: you're dangerously close to a good point there i think you're ignoring the point i made about expecting everyone to be respectable and mature in such a competitive environment that's ok though

i don't remember saying i EXPECTED anyone from clanwars to behave maturely?

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Quote: no, clear and simpee on the jelly forum. it doesn't seem like that serious of an assertion if you can easily deflect it

it was obvious they didn't think i'd have such an easy time proving they were lying.

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i don't know why not. if you can understand why you - for example - didn't host a pointbugged ladder for everybody who wanted one, it isn't such a big step to realising that someone else might not want to either, especially when that someone has always been the most vocal opponent of the point bug.

you assume i didn't want to because i can't be bothered or wouldn't lower myself to paying or running anything for renegade
not saying i did, but what if i really liked the idea, but didn't do it because i felt it would be pointless trying to make a ladder for renegade that spoony did not endorse? i think it's possible other people felt the same way

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of course, on that basis you might think that i deserve some credit for hosting a pointbugged ladder for such a long time despite my contempt for the bug, but no. no thanks are due there, only being called a "douche" when the problem is finally fixable.

now you finally understand!
i guess my thinking is skewed
i figure that since you're the only person that can really run a renegade ladder (whether you'll openly admit this or not) you would do

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you've lost me there.

how would allowing soul to play have nearly jeopardized the ren league at cw.cc? the uproar was caused by him being banned
you acted correctly but that nearly resulted in clanwars.cc cutting Renegade off of their site

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the fact that you have no credibility at all in criticising the way clanwars was run, because nobody else could be bothered running a clan ladder at all.

i'm not so sure it's that they couldn't be bothered
i think people realize that you do a better job than they actually could (minus a select few people like trooprm02 - i've read clanwars.cc a handful of times and each time he was trying to tell you why you suck at what you're doing and how he could do better) and figured there was no point in trying
like i've said Spoony is clanwars.cc; people do not believe clanwars can succeed without you at this point
and because i didn't run a clan ladder for renegade means i have no credibility on the subject? i'm not saying i do have credibility on the subject, but that thinking is flawed
you should not criticize politicians or what they do because you've never been one yourself - you have no credibility on the subject

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i'd rather be rude than a bald-faced liar, liquid. why do you keep ignoring what i say and then deliberately pretending i said things i absolutely did not say? i'd respect you more if you just admitted you lost the argument instead of trying to lie your way out of it.

i have facial hair
sorry
it looks to me that you're insinuating things about people but when i mention it or point it out you call me a liar
it's a trap
here's what i got from what you were saying: "these people want me to change my ladder but aren't willing to go make their own community to have the proposed changes to my ladder - that makes them douchebags"
i also got this: "these people want me to change what i'm doing to cater to their wants instead of thanking me for hosting it - that makes them douchebags"
am i incorrect in saying this?

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and there you go again. why do you keep lying? when did i say "everything i say is a fact"? why are you lying by claiming i said or think this?

i didn't say that you said "everything you say is a fact"
you're lying in saying i said that...stop lying you big liar
in the past other people have made claims and you dismissed them, but when you made claims you treated them as fact
i noticed it in religious debates but didn't think i'd have to pinpoint and save it
one time i remember is when you accused MSGTPain of hating you due to you catching his friends cheating in a community war, and when i asked if you had proof of that you never responded
i never said this, i'm just asking you if it's something you believe to be true, because from watching it's a question i had myself

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i suppose i'm glad to hear you would agree with me if only you were perceptive enough to see what's right in front of you.

it seems to me you've decided that clanwars.cc is entirely represented by simpee and orca
one "couldn't be bothered" to host a league whereas the other "wouldn't lower himself to that"
i don't believe that all of clanwars.cc can be described by either of these two players
how do you know simpee was telling the truth? it's possible he would have liked to but felt it would not work and didn't want to get flak for it

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eh? one of the main reasons i hosted the clanwars ladder is because no fucker else on renegade could be bothered.

well that was very kind of you
didn't people host it before yourself? perhaps someone else would have had you not stepped in
you must have done a good job because after you came along no one else really wanted to try
perhaps they thought they could not do a better job than you do or did and that their efforts would be pointless
you said yourself that clanwars.cc died because you stopped playing - perhaps there's some validity to my words

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there you have it, ladies and gentlemen. no rebuttal necessary, the quote speaks for itself.

it's a simple question - you claimed that banning soul almost killed renegade at cw.cc
i don't disagree with you banning him for breaking a rule but i simply raised a question - do you think the uproar may have been averted had you just let it go and made everyone else happy?
alright, you later covered this, but would it have gotten clanwars.cc off your back? even if it was for entirely wrong reasons?

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oh dear, you completely changed the subject.

nope, i didn't at all change the subject
i understand that in your eyes the only people that didn't want the pointmod used in clanwars were the only people that posted in that topic, which you named
i believe that may be untrue

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translation: you blindly swallowed what a small number of cheaters and compulsive liars told you, despite the fact that at the time i was carefully pointing out the simple truth of the matter

i don't think i thought either way on it, i simply understood why what you said could have been true and why their concerns and thoughts could have been true
i still don't know what whiskey thought either way, even if he told you he wanted it used
maybe he didn't and wanted to please you
i don't think it matters much either way whether he did or not, just saying

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who gives a shit whether anybody "enjoys" debates? if you want a rule changed, explain why. if you can't, don't expect it to be changed. who cares whether you enjoy trying to explain why?

that's a nice way of putting it
a lot of people don't like posting things if they know they're going to get criticized for it, so perhaps they saw simpee and the others trying to tell you why they wanted the original points used and the way you tried to tell them their opinions were wrong and decided against posting at all
though since you only care about debate in determining how clanwars.cc is run it wouldn't have mattered either way to you

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the "if i ran a league" is the critical bit. if you gave enough of a shit about clan gaming to host a league, here's how you'd run it! well, i suppose we have to take you at your word, such as it is, because you didn't give enough of a shit about clan gaming to host a league, though you've got plenty of criticism to aim at the only person who DID host one because it wasn't exactly as you wanted it to be.

i just have a hard time understanding why you do what you do, that's all
am i not allowed to ask you why you do what you do in regards to running a clan league or tell you why i think it makes no sense because i don't or haven't run one myself? i don't agree with that thinking, and i covered it earlier

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your parents must have had a hell of time

i was raised by wolves
hurp durp

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as would anyone who could be bothered hosting a pointbugged ladder when, according to you, everyone except me and whiskey wanted one.

i think if people were asked who the best person to host a pointbugged ladder in ren would be it would be you
maybe that's why they wanted you to do it so badly

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what a pity that not a single person on the planet could, so instead you direct your anger at the only person who hosts a league and the only person who helps him run it.

what makes you think i'm mad? lol
i don't think that anyone else could have successfully run an original points ladder, especially while you were running your own ladder
i'm sure i'm not the only one that thinks that either

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if you can't see how phenomenally stupid you are being here, i just don't know how many more times i need to repeat it.

forgive me, i can be slow

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because they're a bunch of idiots? that's the short answer.

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you're almost on to something here. you don't run a clanwars league for these people so you don't know? indeed. so you know what it's like to not host a league for a bunch of idiots... so you ought to understand what might drive someone else to decide not to as well.

fair enough, there are quite a few reasons i can come up with for why more people haven't tried

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why didn't you read my detailed and repeated explanations of why i wouldn't play him at the time?

didn't you cite that the vehicle alignment issue was the main reason? and that the map wasn't complete without it? if there was more to it please fill me in
it just looked to me like you were avoiding it, and i didn't think the vehicle alignment issue would have changed the outcome of the game

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again, i'll just leave this quote to stand on its own, it says a lot more than you meant it to

i posed the question above in regards to the Soul situation
not that it matters either way!
i was just questioning whether your way of conducting business at cw.cc was always best done by discussion, though you did a good job covering it

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you seem reluctant to finish your sentence. the last words that belong on the end are "but they were wrong"

i didn't think i had to say that, the fact that they couldn't argue it says just that
even though the pointmod makes the game much more fair people still didn't want it used

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it might be the same thing you thought you would lose by hosting a pointbugged clan ladder for them?

which is what?

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the fact you don't give enough of a shit about the clan world to host a league at all is enough to demonstrate you wouldn't be a good admin, we don't need much more evidence than that. we don't even need to notice your contempt for the only person who actually did and the renadmin at the time, though that helps form the picture too.

you have an idea of what you're doing and it worked in the past
i have a hard time understanding it, that's all

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nobody said they were, though you lied and tried to make it sound like i did.

you made a point to say that polls were rigged in clanwars multiple times after you mentioned the poll about wanting the pointmod in clanwars
what i inferred was you were suggesting this one had been rigged as well
what i said several times was that just because others in the past had been rigged that this one wasn't necessarily rigged
if you never said that it had been rigged then what's the big deal? i don't recall you saying it, but i did respond thinking that's what you had meant

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or you were just overly focused on the small group of cheaters and pointpushers

perhaps!

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i can't tell if that's a serious question or not

just because whiskey was the only person who always stood by your side and listened to you does not mean no one else cared or "gave a shit" about clanwars

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is there anything praiseworthy here?

who said anything about delivering praise? i'm just explaining why i think more people "gave a shit" about clanwars than you think
maybe you should tell me exactly what you mean when you say "gave a shit"

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never mind them, we're talking about the enormous number of people who never tried at all, for whom you're very quick to make excuses.

they would fall into your "come back with excuses" category

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would that explain the general enthusiasm when i was suspended because a cheater lied his way into my clan?

who said they have to like you? you probably made them feel stupid at one point or another
you've said several times that they're idiots, so is it farfetched to say they may not have liked you much
despite them disliking you they stuck around, which you've attributed to them being too lazy to make their own league

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still, carry on making excuses for these people if you like. the fact remains that none of them came up with the goods, and you attacked the only person who did.

what if no one else was capable? if you're the only one that can honestly do it then what? i can't see anyone else running a clan league for renegade

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having a debate thread at all is more generous than they have a reason to expect; i could just say "here's spoony's decision the madder, live with it" and lock the thread, as i was advised by quite a few people to do instead of actually talking to these idiots.

why do that though? that would be no fun for you

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i've been asked the same question before, but in a more threatening tone.

alright, but that doesn't answer the question
would you be content with your decision even if it emptied out your community?
it doesn't seem to bother you that right now renegade at clanwars.cc sits nearly empty so "no" seems a plausible answer to me

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no? that was the first time you seemed to acknowledge the fact that the anti-pointsfix crowd at clanwars had been caught rigging polls like that before, despite the innumerable times i kept pointing it out to you and you obviously didn't care.

no - i believed you on that, without actually having seen it myself, but you mentioned it numerous times after mentioning that specific poll
it looked to me like you were saying that that poll had been rigged, and that's why several times i've stated that i don't believe that because other polls were rigged in the past that that poll had been rigged
you never actually said it, but again it appeared you were clearly hinting at it

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i suspect this is wilful dishonesty on your part rather than simple stupidity. i didn't say you have to crafted a beautifully worded essay, i just said you had to actually be right.

hmm
no, stick with simple stupidity
in the case of the pointmod what was the point? if you made a topic where people were supposed to prove why it's more fair when you already know it's unfair you're just lying a trap out with the intention of slapping people around
was your topic made to ask whether people wanted to use the pointmod or whether people thought it was more fair?

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this one seems more like simple stupidity than wilful dishonesty. i can only advise you to actually read and understand what i say before replying to it.

easier said than done
you're severely british, and my brain is odd
as a result things get misunderstood

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i know you don't, because it logically makes you much more of a douche than i could ever be, and given the sheer number of times you've called me a douche for this reason it would make you the most colossal douche in the world.

pfft
if the reason no one else has tried to make a clan ladder, over the pointmod issue or any other issue, was solely due to people "not giving a shit" then i would have no problem agreeing with you
i'm not so sure that's the case

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from you and from the people you were so enthusiastically defending, it was absolutely true.

that's probably true, and i don't know enough to prove it otherwise
for the record i honestly think it's great that you hosted a league for renegade throughout the years, even if you've never gotten that from me

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no. but your standards for meeting the label "douche" are much lower than mine; they apply to someone who's going to great lengths to do you a favour if that favour isn't exactly the way you'd like it.

correct

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i see you've already forgotten about the whole "CLAN WARS would have shut the league down" bit, maybe because - as i said several times before - it's not something you are at all bothered by. at one point shortbus (global admin) said that blkst0rm and i were the only good things about the renegade community (he was specifically talking about the clanwars section, before anybody here objects), precisely because we were actually going by rules and fairness and honesty instead of caving in to a bunch of idiots. that's one thing we could have lost - the entire league. aside from that, what a great precedent to set. "here's a situation where you can get away with pointpushing and photoshopping screenshots for fake wins, guys". tell me, do you think that would lead to more cheating or less? but maybe you don't care about rules being applied fairly, maybe you think punishments should not be decided by what your offence was but how many people like you instead. well, i don't give a shit about pleasing people, i'd rather be honest. so under your system, me - maybe the fairest and most honest player you could find - would come off much worse than someone with such a colourful history of cheating and pointpushing and lying to everyone about it (the admins, his opponents, his own clan). i suppose if you could give enough of a shit to actually run a clan league, this is what it might look like. what could i lose? dignity, for one thing. ever heard of it? where there is a question of cheating or fairplay or honesty, you will always find me on the right side. there are quite a lot of people in the renegade community for whom this can't be said.

well said

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"dismissing all of them because you disagree with it" is a dishonest way to phrase it. it's not as bad as "didn't listen to them", which was an outright lie you should be ashamed of yourself for saying as often as you did, but it's still dishonest. "dismissing them because you disagreed with them", no. i read everything they said and replied to them all. shame they were all WRONG. perhaps you don't like to think that anybody's opinion could actually be WRONG, liquid.

that's an interesting question
i like to think that if people have opinions on things that they should at least be able to back them up, and i back up what i say
if i'm proven wrong i'll admit it, i'm not a dishonest person (at least not intentionally)
what i was trying to get at is that since you felt their opinions were not valid (or as you say WRONG) that they do not matter
once again it's my way of thinking not understanding yours, which would make me a bad clanwars admin

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yes, it was. not everyone is as bad as robo or simpee.

i still think of zell as a good person!

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i don't remember saying i EXPECTED anyone from clanwars to behave maturely?

you didn't say it, i just assumed it's what you meant and addressed it as such
if it's not then don't worry about it
but did you expect it? more or less?

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it was obvious they didn't think i'd have such an easy time proving they were lying.

yet they still put it out there
perhaps it was what they honestly thought and you set the record straight for them - if so then that's good, right?