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| BHS Ladder [message #438328] |
Tue, 26 October 2010 08:16  |
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trooprm02
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I hope TT plans to replace the ladder info in the registry with BHS's Renladder IP, which is my first question and my second question is if its possible to mod Renegade is such a way that if people joined through Gamespy/Direct Connect, a ladder section could be added to their client and it would be hardcorded to report to the BHS ladder just like if you joined through WOL?
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[Updated on: Tue, 26 October 2010 08:17] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: BHS Ladder [message #438386 is a reply to message #438385] |
Wed, 27 October 2010 05:21  |
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Spoony
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the original idea was to only let servers using the original renegade points system (a.k.a. pointsfix) be laddered on the TT/BHS ladder. after all, score is both a factor in individual players' case and in determining which team wins a lot of the time, so obviously a server where points are correctly awarded is more feasible for a ladder than a server where you can get points for no reason at all.
of course, the same could be said for other things which affect gameplay in a counter-competitive way.
^^ that WAS the idea, then me and crimson developed the concept of a ladder "weighting" system, whereby servers with the more strategic and competitive settings (0 start credits, original renegade points system, no early !donate, no vehicle shells etc etc etc) are worth more ladder than other servers. so say if your server has vehicle shells enabled then it subtracts 20% from the contribution to the ladder, another 10% if you have weapon drops enabled, etc.
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| Re: BHS Ladder [message #438387 is a reply to message #438328] |
Wed, 27 October 2010 05:47 |
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reborn
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How can you determine the percent worth of these features?
How about a specific game mode like CTF? How about a custom game mode that only runs on One server?
How about a server that runs the points fix, has 0 starting creds etc... But has modified the maps themselves?
What about servers that have modified the points system itself?
Or, what about a server that complies to your specifics, but decided to modify the ladder points to boost the player stats?
You would need to go on each server and make a plan and a note of each specific modification and determine the percent value, plus you need to make sure they are not tampering with the server afterwards, or performing updates to their server.
Seriously, I'm not trying to be a dick, but you just can't balance this yourself, plus it's an on-going job.
Just have each server that reports in create it's own ladder page. Sure, it's not what was planned with everyone together, but you cannot create a fair ladder in the way you're intending.
[Updated on: Wed, 27 October 2010 05:48] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: BHS Ladder [message #438389 is a reply to message #438387] |
Wed, 27 October 2010 06:24 |
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Spoony
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| reborn wrote on Wed, 27 October 2010 07:47 |
How can you determine the percent worth of these features?
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careful consideration.
you said a while ago, i believe, something like "i don't wanna be the guy who decides those numbers". cheer up, then
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How about a specific game mode like CTF? How about a custom game mode that only runs on One server?
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nope, AOW/CCM only (includes marathon)
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How about a server that runs the points fix, has 0 starting creds etc... But has modified the maps themselves?
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define modified the maps?
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What about servers that have modified the points system itself?
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simple, another % penalty.
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Or, what about a server that complies to your specifics, but decided to modify the ladder points to boost the player stats?
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it's my hope that the ladder points would be decided ladder-side, cos i've already set out some alterations to them.
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You would need to go on each server and make a plan and a note of each specific modification and determine the percent value, plus you need to make sure they are not tampering with the server afterwards, or performing updates to their server.
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yes.
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Seriously, I'm not trying to be a dick, but you just can't balance this yourself, plus it's an on-going job.
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and i seem to be the man for it, eh?
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| Re: BHS Ladder [message #438393 is a reply to message #438389] |
Wed, 27 October 2010 07:24 |
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reborn
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Oh shit, I've let myself fall into a Spoony debate. 
| Spoony wrote on Wed, 27 October 2010 09:24 |
| reborn wrote on Wed, 27 October 2010 07:47 |
How can you determine the percent worth of these features?
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careful consideration.
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I'd be interested in knowing how you come to your conclusions. Whether it's a rough estimate based on a feeling for the game environment, or analysis of data.
| Spoony wrote on Wed, 27 October 2010 09:24 |
you said a while ago, i believe, something like "i don't wanna be the guy who decides those numbers". cheer up, then
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Yes, I wouldn't like to be the person that decides these percentages, simply because I do not believe it's possible to come up with a fait and balanced system.
I honestly don't feel like there's anyone qualified enough to make that call.
| Spoony wrote on Wed, 27 October 2010 09:24 |
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How about a specific game mode like CTF? How about a custom game mode that only runs on One server?
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nope, AOW/CCM only (includes marathon)
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Will the other game modes have seperate ladders, then? If not, then you're dropping support for a large number of players and servers, whereas the system I mentioned would not be so exclusive and would support all servers and all players.
I do not believe that alienating sevrers or players in such a small playerbase is a good idea.
| Spoony wrote on Wed, 27 October 2010 09:24 |
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How about a server that runs the points fix, has 0 starting creds etc... But has modified the maps themselves?
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define modified the maps?
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Modified maps such as placing GameObjects on maps that would otherwise not exist. Perhaps a ceiling camera, a turret, a blocker, a shed, whatever happens to take the mood...
| Spoony wrote on Wed, 27 October 2010 09:24 |
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What about servers that have modified the points system itself?
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simple, another % penalty.
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It's not really "simple" though... How do you determine what percent should be removed if the points system is modified so extensively?
| Spoony wrote on Wed, 27 October 2010 09:24 |
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Or, what about a server that complies to your specifics, but decided to modify the ladder points to boost the player stats?
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it's my hope that the ladder points would be decided ladder-side, cos i've already set out some alterations to them.
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The FDS sends the amount of ladder points a player should receive to the ladder itself.
The FDS sends data such as ArmHits, ArmShots, CrotchHits, CrotchShots, HeadHits, HeadShots, LegHits, LegShots, TorsoHits, TorsoShots, AlliesKilled, EnemiesKilled, Deaths, GameTime, Kills, KillsFromVehicle, LadderPoints, PowerUpsCollected, Score, ShotsFired, Squishes, VehiclesDestroyed, TimeInVehicle, and WOLPoints.
Obviously though the ladder could recalculate ladder points based on the variables supplied by the server (and whatever static info you collect for that servers (such as isrunningpointsfix == no)).
| Spoony wrote on Wed, 27 October 2010 09:24 |
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You would need to go on each server and make a plan and a note of each specific modification and determine the percent value, plus you need to make sure they are not tampering with the server afterwards, or performing updates to their server.
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yes.
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That's pretty commited, I commend you. However, even if you was in all servers that report into the ladder server 24 hours a day, to be sure nothing un-toward is happening, you would need the servers owners 100% cooperation, as there are elements other than gameplay that can manipulate the ladder points.
| Spoony wrote on Wed, 27 October 2010 09:24 |
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Seriously, I'm not trying to be a dick, but you just can't balance this yourself, plus it's an on-going job.
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and i seem to be the man for it, eh?
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[/quote]
You sound pretty confident, and to be honest, if I was going to choose anyone to do this job, you would be in the top of a very short list. I just do not think it's possible to accomplish what you want to do. At least not in a fair way.
I honestly don't want to be saying this either. I would love a fair ladder for all players and all servers in One big list.
It's a public service that you're trying to accomplish and I must sound like a right dousche bag, but this is not my intent.
I honestly feel that a ladder that creates seperate pages for all servers is the best fit solution, albeit not the most desired solution.
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| Re: BHS Ladder [message #438394 is a reply to message #438393] |
Wed, 27 October 2010 08:01 |
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Spoony
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| reborn wrote on Wed, 27 October 2010 09:24 |
I'd be interested in knowing how you come to your conclusions. Whether it's a rough estimate based on a feeling for the game environment, or analysis of data.
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it's my considered opinions on which game alterations have a negative (or in some cases positive) effect on competitive and fair gameplay.
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| Spoony wrote on Wed, 27 October 2010 09:24 |
you said a while ago, i believe, something like "i don't wanna be the guy who decides those numbers". cheer up, then
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Yes, I wouldn't like to be the person that decides these percentages, simply because I do not believe it's possible to come up with a fait and balanced system.
I honestly don't feel like there's anyone qualified enough to make that call.
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well, westwood made two ladders for renegade - would you consider westwood qualified? because, false modesty aside, i promise you i know a bucketload more about how to run a good ladder than westwood did.
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| Spoony wrote on Wed, 27 October 2010 09:24 |
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How about a specific game mode like CTF? How about a custom game mode that only runs on One server?
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nope, AOW/CCM only (includes marathon)
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Will the other game modes have seperate ladders, then? If not, then you're dropping support for a large number of players and servers, whereas the system I mentioned would not be so exclusive and would support all servers and all players.
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communities that run other game styles than AOW/CCM are perfectly free to make their own ladders - that's the case now and won't be any less so once the TT ladder is sorted out.
if TT did make a separate ladder for, say, capture the flag (and that's a hypothetical) i certainly wouldn't be doing anything with that personally.
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I do not believe that alienating sevrers or players in such a small playerbase is a good idea.
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it certainly is a shame that the game's player base is shrinking, but it doesn't seem like an argument against the goal of making the ladder worth a damn (for a change).
rejecting a particular server's data on the basis that they run - say, co-op - doesn't actually take anything away from that server, does it? nothing's changed for them at all. they've still got their server to run however they like it, they can still set up their own ladder for it.
| Spoony wrote on Wed, 27 October 2010 09:24 |
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How about a server that runs the points fix, has 0 starting creds etc... But has modified the maps themselves?
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define modified the maps?
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Modified maps such as placing GameObjects on maps that would otherwise not exist. Perhaps a ceiling camera, a turret, a blocker, a shed, whatever happens to take the mood...
good question, thank you. i'll ponder that.
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| Spoony wrote on Wed, 27 October 2010 09:24 |
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What about servers that have modified the points system itself?
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simple, another % penalty.
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It's not really "simple" though... How do you determine what percent should be removed if the points system is modified so extensively?
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by... thinking about it?
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That's pretty commited, I commend you. However, even if you was in all servers that report into the ladder server 24 hours a day, to be sure nothing un-toward is happening, you would need the servers owners 100% cooperation, as there are elements other than gameplay that can manipulate the ladder points.
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easy, servers that want to be part of the ladder can just declare their settings, and notify us of any changes. if they're dishonest about any of it we can dock the ladder points or whatever. trust me, i've dealt with much peskier ladder abuse than this.
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You sound pretty confident, and to be honest, if I was going to choose anyone to do this job, you would be in the top of a very short list. I just do not think it's possible to accomplish what you want to do. At least not in a fair way.
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then you can't be disappointed by the results, i suppose.
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I honestly don't want to be saying this either. I would love a fair ladder for all players and all servers in One big list.
It's a public service that you're trying to accomplish and I must sound like a right dousche bag, but this is not my intent.
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no problem.
i wish my ideas had already been implemented by now
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I honestly feel that a ladder that creates seperate pages for all servers is the best fit solution, albeit not the most desired solution.
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not a global ladder at all, then?
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| Re: BHS Ladder [message #438403 is a reply to message #438387] |
Wed, 27 October 2010 08:58 |
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trooprm02
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| reborn wrote on Wed, 27 October 2010 13:47 |
How can you determine the percent worth of these features?
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Exactly...im not saying it can't be done (because it can) but having someone monitoring and evaluating servers constantly is just redundent. A MUCH easier system would be one without variaubles, either a server reports to the ladder because of condition a b or c, or it doesn't (ex: uses the pointsfix and 0 start credits. tank shells, drop weapons, donations etc don't make a huge difference).
Either way, this can be easily be put to a vote and im sure the community would side with this more simplistic approach (albeit only because they might not see Renegade gameplay in the same detail Spoony does).
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[Updated on: Wed, 27 October 2010 08:59] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: BHS Ladder [message #438405 is a reply to message #438403] |
Wed, 27 October 2010 09:28 |
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Spoony
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here's something funny:
like i said, the original idea was for servers with the fucked-up bugged points system not be count on the TT ladder at all.
then later when crimson and i had worked out the ladder weighting idea so that they could count on the TT ladder... you have no idea how angry this made the anti-pointsfix crowd.
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Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
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1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful
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| Re: BHS Ladder [message #438428 is a reply to message #438328] |
Wed, 27 October 2010 14:28 |
i0ncl0ud9
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It would not be that hard to create a global ladder to be fair for everyone.
Decision makers would just need to get together and decide what the most important things to include are, understanding that there is no way that every factor you could think of varying renegade gameplay cannot be accounted for.
If it gets to the point where the ladder is ready to be implemented and the main problem holding it back is the mathematical part of it, (trying to make it "fair", and which factors to include, not to include). I would be more than happy to help out.
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| Re: BHS Ladder [message #438481 is a reply to message #438428] |
Thu, 28 October 2010 07:16 |
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EvilWhiteDragon
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| i0ncl0ud9 wrote on Wed, 27 October 2010 23:28 |
It would not be that hard to create a global ladder to be fair for everyone.
Decision makers would just need to get together and decide what the most important things to include are, understanding that there is no way that every factor you could think of varying renegade gameplay cannot be accounted for.
If it gets to the point where the ladder is ready to be implemented and the main problem holding it back is the mathematical part of it, (trying to make it "fair", and which factors to include, not to include). I would be more than happy to help out.
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Tried to do that under the lead of Crimson, but that failed miserably. I guess now Crimson decided that Spoony could make whatever changes alone.
Originally the idea was to have a team of 7 members to decide on this: http://www.renegadeforums.com/index.php?t=msg&rid=20224&prevloaded=1& ;th=24877
Now I don't know how many people are left of those 7, but I do know aht Neither StealthEye or me has given any opinion on this new proposed system. Something that I find kinda weird since we're not only on the original ladder team, but also on the TT-team.
BlackIntel admin/founder/PR dude (not a coder)
Please visit http://www.blackintel.org/
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[Updated on: Thu, 28 October 2010 07:25] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: BHS Ladder [message #438488 is a reply to message #438485] |
Thu, 28 October 2010 09:40 |
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EvilWhiteDragon
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| trooprm02 wrote on Thu, 28 October 2010 18:31 |
| Spoony wrote on Wed, 27 October 2010 11:28 |
here's something funny:
like i said, the original idea was for servers with the fucked-up bugged points system not be count on the TT ladder at all.
then later when crimson and i had worked out the ladder weighting idea so that they could count on the TT ladder... you have no idea how angry this made the anti-pointsfix crowd.
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Yes, I remember that.
@a team, no offense to Crimson but I don't think she is right for the position. She would take care of the implementation, but that topic should have never been posted here in the first place but at the clanwars.cc forums instead. I know people who don't play will not agree with this, but if you trust people that do, you will know they would be the only ones that really understand how settle changes affect gameplay.
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I don't think CW,cc anole is suited to do that. No wait, that is even for sure that CW.cc alone is able to do that. If you would've looked at the link you would've seen that the list was pretty much filled with qualified people.
The problem with that team was that I think Crimson had the official lead, but that she due to IRL reasons could not guide the process as good as it should've been guided. If that was more organized, I'm sure there would've been a couple of good solutions on which the community could've had their last say.
Also it would be silly not to include Crimson into this because she is the one hosting the ladder database + software, changes to the ladder would need to be implemented there as well.
BlackIntel admin/founder/PR dude (not a coder)
Please visit http://www.blackintel.org/
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| Re: BHS Ladder [message #438492 is a reply to message #438488] |
Thu, 28 October 2010 10:16 |
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Spoony
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the clear majority of "clanwars people" just don't think rationally about issues that seriously affect a ladder.
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| Re: BHS Ladder [message #438493 is a reply to message #438492] |
Thu, 28 October 2010 10:31 |
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trooprm02
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| Spoony wrote on Thu, 28 October 2010 12:16 |
the clear majority of "clanwars people" just don't think rationally about issues that seriously affect a ladder.
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I disagree, and EWD that link made me post what I did. I could not imagine most of those people rating servers/ingame settings for a game that I'd play more seriously if a global ladder existed. You just don't understand this game by playing 20v20's matches in jelly marathon....You personally might not consider them rational Spoony, but they atleast have a leg up by understand how things like drop weapons, tank shells, no donating, etc affects gameplay. And thats why I feel only cw.cc alone is suited for the job. I could go on and prove my point by quizing you, EWD, on how a affects b but I won't.
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[Updated on: Thu, 28 October 2010 10:34] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: BHS Ladder [message #438497 is a reply to message #438493] |
Thu, 28 October 2010 10:44 |
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EvilWhiteDragon
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| trooprm02 wrote on Thu, 28 October 2010 19:31 |
| Spoony wrote on Thu, 28 October 2010 12:16 |
the clear majority of "clanwars people" just don't think rationally about issues that seriously affect a ladder.
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I disagree, and EWD that link made me post what I did. I could not imagine most of those people rating servers/ingame settings for a game that I'd play more seriously if a global ladder existed. You just don't understand this game by playing 20v20's matches in jelly marathon....You personally might not consider them rational Spoony, but they atleast have a leg up by understand how things like drop weapons, tank shells, no donating, etc affects gameplay. And thats why I feel only cw.cc alone is suited for the job. I could go on and prove my point by quizing you, EWD, on how a affects b but I won't.
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Point is, not al PUBLIC players are clan players. Guess who's in the majority. Also, I might not be the best in this game, I do know a thing or two about how it should work, what is fair and what is feasible. I and q substantial amount of people on the team have shown to know somethings about running a successful server as well, which shows that PUBLIC players are happy with it.
I know that CW.cc players want the game to be as pure as possible, which is fair enough, but it should be possible to customize the game to some extend, as long as the balance is kept. It's obvious that this is not easy, but it is also obvious that CW.cc players alone can't decide on this. If everyone wanted clan games/clan settings TheKOSs2 server for ex. would be tonnes more popular than it is.
Oh, and I never play 20vs20 games, with the only exception perhaps community games.
Edit: Fixed some grammar mistakes, just like I should've done on my previous post.
BlackIntel admin/founder/PR dude (not a coder)
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[Updated on: Thu, 28 October 2010 10:45] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: BHS Ladder [message #438501 is a reply to message #438328] |
Thu, 28 October 2010 10:57 |
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Goztow
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The reason why people currently play in NS and Jelly is because this server has always had good player counts. It has very little to do with game modes.
You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
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| Re: BHS Ladder [message #438510 is a reply to message #438501] |
Thu, 28 October 2010 13:13 |
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Spoony
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| Quote: |
You just don't understand this game by playing 20v20's matches in jelly marathon....You personally might not consider them rational Spoony, but they atleast have a leg up by understand how things like drop weapons, tank shells, no donating, etc affects gameplay. And thats why I feel only cw.cc alone is suited for the job. I could go on and prove my point by quizing you, EWD, on how a affects b but I won't.
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i don't think you follow me. it's a plain fact that the majority of clanwars.cc players tend to debate important game/ladder issues in a depressingly stupid way. you're very new to clanwars.cc, if indeed anyone really considers you a clanwars player at all, so perhaps you've missed all the times when it was spoony vs virtually the entire clanwars community on an important rule decision... and it was clear that despite being in the overwhelming majority, they just didn't see how breathtakingly stupid they were being.
do you want a practical example? you're way too new to remember the Soul business, so i'll pick one you're more likely to know. if most clanwars players were asked to nominate some regular clanwars players to join your consultation group, i think simpee and clearshot would probably get a lot of votes. and yet you seem to be aware of how they reacted to the ladder weighting concept, and we're not just talking about the extraordinary stupidity of their reaction, but the unbelievable dishonesty and vindictiveness of it.
anyway, what salient wisdom do you think you could glean from, say, nunega about how to set up a successful ladder that you couldn't learn by asking me?
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[Updated on: Thu, 28 October 2010 13:15] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: BHS Ladder [message #438677 is a reply to message #438328] |
Sun, 31 October 2010 09:48 |
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Goztow
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Tbh just have spoony do it and it will be 90 % perfect. That's better than any other system we could work out.
You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
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| Re: BHS Ladder [message #438678 is a reply to message #438328] |
Sun, 31 October 2010 10:09 |
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Crimson
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That's pretty much what I am doing. Except that I suggested weighting the servers instead of just banning ones that don't match "pure" Renegade. It's fairly simple logic that certain server settings skew results and make your points less and less reliant on skill.
Settings such as weapons drop don't make much of an impact, while settings like using the broken points system have a huge impact.
A database will have to be maintained with the server settings for each server and the reported settings will be public so that if you are aware of a server lying about a setting, you can report them and we can moderate.
I'm the bawss.
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