Home » Renegade Discussions » Mod Forum » Measuring and rewarding team work programatically?
Measuring and rewarding team work programatically? [message #436867] |
Wed, 22 September 2010 09:34 ![Go to next message Go to next message](/theme/Renegade_Forums/images/down.png) |
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reborn
Messages: 3231 Registered: September 2004 Location: uk - london
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General (3 Stars) |
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Vloktboky mentioned several times that he would like to re-write DA's veteran system to reward team work, and drifted on to what really started stepping outside of a veterancy system and into the realms of remodelling the game to reward team work better in general.
Here are some quotes from him on the matter:
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Knock it off, for the love of God. Higher veteran status? The damn thing is already "too high." You're playing a damn team game. Quit trying to further express your individual ego in the game and start working towards the benefit of your team overall.
You want more veteran goodies? Then I suggest taking your ideas and twisting them around a Team Veterancy where the entire team must work together to satisfy certain requirements which promise benefits across the entire team. For example, if your entire team manages to thwart off more than 8 enemy vehicles in the area of your base during the game, you are awarded with slightly cheaper vehicle production (due to the collective wreckage and scrap). Tweak the numbers, figure out other ways to wrap around building defense (such as bringing a health back to life after it has dipped into the 10% area) or some other repairing method, infantry kills, aircraft kills, vehicle/soldier purchases, enemy building destructions, whatever. If the entire team has something that they can work towards which will benefit them all, then they may... just may... figure out that if they work together to accomplish it, then they can get their fun toys and go play with them all they like.
ANYTHING to get them to work together so little twerps like some of you stop running off to get that shiny green medal so you can stare at it with 10 minutes left on the clock and a deadlocked game on the horizon.
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I'll leave the logic up to you guys but I will take care of the mechanics behind the scenes, dealing with such things as group detection and common interests. I can write you some code that well let you easily see if a given player is in a common group with other players based on similar character or vehicle classes, or a common target such as if you are attacking the same type of building. I won't bother if you are not interested, but if you are, we will need to work as a team and that includes allowing me to work in your current solution for DA. Let me know if you're interested.
And to the rest of you, if you want to see something like this put in, I suggest you start an open discussion. I'll start by stating I want to see one of my original ideas put in to play. I want to see group dynamics. I want to see benefits given to players who stick close together with the same type of soldier or vehicle layout. Think C&C Generals, China faction. If you are in a medium tank and you stick around 4 or so other medium tanks, then each of you will be given a little extra fire power or armor so long as you stick together. And where you stick, you tend to travel and attack as one.
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Good suggestions so far and I am starting to understand where the discrepancies will lie. To make it more clear, my code will only detect groups - a collection of people within a certain radius of each other or a collection of people who share a common target - and will report those groups/peoples to other modules executing on top of the game. Such logic as Veterancy or bonuses can then be applied on top of this. I am now writing anything that specific. Such ideas are up to you guys to implement.
I am not 100% where I will be working on this at this time. I will say that unless I get a confirmed offer from someone by the end of this weekend, I may not have enough time to complete this. But I have written some preliminary code and I will make that available irregardless of what ends up happening. Others may be able to come in and fill in the gaps.
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This was from back in early 2007, and I actually took him up on the offer. Unfortunatly what he sent me at the time was too difficult for me to understand (this wasn't a failing of his code, but my understanding) and it was only partially finished.
After a hard drive failure and an all but absent vloktboky the idea, concept and proof was totally lost.
At the time the code was too complex for me and I gave up on the idea, it was only when I was re-reading the thread it was mentioned in recently that I kicked myself for not still having the code he sent me, as I probably would of been in a better position to make something out of it, or at least read it and understand it.
What he was saying makes sense to me, it always did make sense only at the time I was incapable of doing anything about it, and afterwards I forgot all about it. Until now...
Now while the idea of rewarding team work is a nice one, obviously you cannot capture all types and forms of team work, boky had realised this too and hense his plan to reward groups...
I've taken this idea and made a working proof that does the following (obviously the specifics can be changed/tweaked):
Groups of the same or similar class characters/vehicles in close proximity to eachother apply a healing "aura" to eachother that stacks. For each member of the group you gain 2hp per 3 seconds.
There is a visual indication of this by manor of a special effect.
Groups of the same or similar class characters/vehicles attacking the same object get a damage buff. For each similar object attacking you recieve a 10% damage increase.
There is a visual indication of this by flashing the double damage red bullet model on the player/vehicle.
If a group kills an object (any object, building, vehicle, c4 etc etc) then they will recieve a proportionate amount of team veterancy points in line with the amount of damage they applied to the object that was killed.
The plugin determines if they was part of the group that killed the object by seeing who damaged the object within the last ten seconds.
I want to polish the system up, and I want to extend it's functionality to do other things and capture more teamwork, but I thought I'd try and test people's initial response to such an idea (albeit a recycled one).
I will absolutely need an active server to test this on once there is a beta release.
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Re: Measuring and rewarding team work programatically? [message #436871 is a reply to message #436870] |
Wed, 22 September 2010 12:27 ![Go to previous message Go to previous message](/theme/Renegade_Forums/images/up.png) ![Go to next message Go to next message](/theme/Renegade_Forums/images/down.png) |
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reborn
Messages: 3231 Registered: September 2004 Location: uk - london
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General (3 Stars) |
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Anon wrote on Wed, 22 September 2010 13:41 | Just...WOW! This is fantastic! ![Big Ups](images/smiley_icons/bigups.gif)
I think that this will indeed encourage teamwork. Nowadays people are only point- and killwhoring to get their individual veteran points, but they keep forgetting that they have to work as a team to win the game.
With this idea the players get the feeling that they actually earn a reward for working together. Who doesn't want any extra's? Everyone's in for some more damage or health regeneration.
However, you must keep in mind that this would only work for certain characters/vehicles. Imagine this, we're playing Field and the tunnels are crowded with Stealth soldiers, snipers and sakura's. This would give the NOD players a big advantage over the GDI players. Eventually GDI will start complaining about unfair gameplay. The same goes for vehicles whoring the base entrance.
On the smaller maps this system might be very rewarding, but the maps like Under, Field, Mesa etc. will give one team a big advantage over the other team. This will then result in unfair/unbalanced gameplay.
So here's my conclusion. It is a great idea, but you still need to think about it very well. It must not ruin the gameplay.
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Indeed, but it can be adjusted and is more a proof than intended for release at this point.
Besides, I would not group snipers and sbh's in the same class for buff purposes.
trooprm02 wrote on Wed, 22 September 2010 15:06 | Interesting idea and quite the history in that post, but I disagree with the premise. Renegade was always intended to be an FPS (essentially a distraction from the rest of the series) and I think (even the current veteran SSGM plugin) subtracts from that. It makes the game RTS/CoD themed by forcing the player to upgrade themselves ingame before they are even able to compete...
A team should win because they have better players, not because of their upgrades. As it currently stands, both sides start on (pretty much, depending on the map) equal terms and this balance shouldn't be touched imo.
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I think you're confusing RTS and FPS, but I understand what you mean.
Game genres develop all the time, look at the RTS genre, it's all command and cooperate now.
However, I'm not even trying to redefine CnC mode, just add a new layer of depth to it. I don't believe it will subtract, but rather add.
It's not held as meta data where the player goes "prestige" and has the advantage for every map... They still all have the same chance and footing at the start of the map, so do not need to upgrade before they can compete. It's not even enough of an advantage to stop a player from enjoying the game, and they will still enjoy all the perks of buffs from team work, which is the greater of the advantages.
Besides, variety is the spice of life (that's if it even ends up on a server, it's probably way too late).
Renegade was always supposed to be played as a team based game, this might help encourage that to the point where you need to work as a team to win. Teams do not always have to win because of great individuals, working as a team will always yield better results.
[Updated on: Wed, 22 September 2010 12:30] Report message to a moderator
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Re: Measuring and rewarding team work programatically? [message #436874 is a reply to message #436867] |
Wed, 22 September 2010 14:34 ![Go to previous message Go to previous message](/theme/Renegade_Forums/images/up.png) ![Go to next message Go to next message](/theme/Renegade_Forums/images/down.png) |
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Spyder
Messages: 1070 Registered: March 2006
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General (1 Star) |
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I have thought some things over and actually it seems quite balanced. If a group of vehicles attacks the same building, they get a 10% damage upgrade, but you could compensate that bonus by giving the opposing team an upgrade which makes them repair faster when repairing with multiple players at a time.
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Re: Measuring and rewarding team work programatically? [message #436897 is a reply to message #436874] |
Thu, 23 September 2010 10:49 ![Go to previous message Go to previous message](/theme/Renegade_Forums/images/up.png) ![Go to next message Go to next message](/theme/Renegade_Forums/images/down.png) |
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Hex
Messages: 858 Registered: March 2004
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I did something like this last year, think RC also has something the same
goztow wrote on Tue, 11 May 2010 08:00 | If we had to ban all who ever cheated or ever created a cheat (obj3cts and such) then I don't think there would be many members left here (sad fact).
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reborn wrote on Fri, 29 January 2010 23:37 | std is for pro's. ![Razz](images/smiley_icons/icon_razz.gif)
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[Updated on: Thu, 23 September 2010 10:56] Report message to a moderator
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Re: Measuring and rewarding team work programatically? [message #436898 is a reply to message #436867] |
Thu, 23 September 2010 11:58 ![Go to previous message Go to previous message](/theme/Renegade_Forums/images/up.png) ![Go to next message Go to next message](/theme/Renegade_Forums/images/down.png) |
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reborn
Messages: 3231 Registered: September 2004 Location: uk - london
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General (3 Stars) |
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I did not know that. What are the specifics and mechanics of it? what exactly does it do?
I'll probably just release what it is I've created thus far as it has already been done and leave it there. I am not asking these questions for details on how to replicate your system, I am just curious what you came up wth and what other ideas you had.
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Re: Measuring and rewarding team work programatically? [message #436910 is a reply to message #436905] |
Thu, 23 September 2010 19:47 ![Go to previous message Go to previous message](/theme/Renegade_Forums/images/up.png) ![Go to next message Go to next message](/theme/Renegade_Forums/images/down.png) |
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GEORGE ZIMMER
Messages: 2605 Registered: March 2006
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General (2 Stars) |
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trooprm02 wrote on Thu, 23 September 2010 18:29 |
reborn wrote on Wed, 22 September 2010 14:27 | It's not even enough of an advantage to stop a player from enjoying the game
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Well, after playing Renegade on pure servers, and experimenting the last couple on server that run the Veteran system, I can tell you ever single version of it has been overpowered. Especially "basic" stuff like HP/armour upgrades to inf/vechs, both DRAMATICALLY change gameplay (compared to stock ren), let alone a team based version ![Razz](images/smiley_icons/icon_razz.gif)
What I meant by RTS, is that its not upgrade based like CoD only because upgrades aren't kept after the round is over...but that every map will still have a tiered progression path which Renegade wasn't designed for (the idea instead being a rock paper scissors type gameplay).
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Actually, Renegade was intended to have a ton of upgrades... and rock paper scissors my ass. The basic soldier is at a huge disadvantage to other, purchasable classes. Though amongst the basic infantry, he's the best, which hardly gives off a rock paper scissors feel.
Renegade's actually been all about "upgrading" your character. Vehicle, now THOSE should not get any upgrades. They weren't intended to be like that.
Toggle SpoilerScrin wrote on Sat, 24 January 2009 13:22 |
cAmpa wrote on Sat, 24 January 2009 12:45 | Scrin, stop pming people to get the building bars.
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FUCK YOU AND THIS SHIT GAME WITH YOUR SCRIPTS!!! I HAVE ASKING YOU AND ANOTHER NOOBS HERE ABOUT HELP WITH THAT BUILDING ICONS FEATURES FOR YEARS, BUT YOU KEEP IGNORING ME AND KEEP WRITE SHIT, SO BURN YOU AND YOUR ASSLICKERS FRIENDS, THIS TIME I'M NOT COME BACK!!!!!!!!!
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Re: Measuring and rewarding team work programatically? [message #436913 is a reply to message #436910] |
Thu, 23 September 2010 22:40 ![Go to previous message Go to previous message](/theme/Renegade_Forums/images/up.png) ![Go to next message Go to next message](/theme/Renegade_Forums/images/down.png) |
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reborn
Messages: 3231 Registered: September 2004 Location: uk - london
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General (3 Stars) |
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trooprm02 wrote on Thu, 23 September 2010 19:29 |
What I meant by RTS, is that its not upgrade based like CoD only because upgrades aren't kept after the round is over...but that every map will still have a tiered progression path which Renegade wasn't designed for (the idea instead being a rock paper scissors type gameplay).
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GEORGE ZIMMER wrote on Thu, 23 September 2010 22:47 |
Renegade's actually been all about "upgrading" your character. Vehicle, now THOSE should not get any upgrades. They weren't intended to be like that.
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I'd like to see what taking the upgrade system even further does, like only unlocking the tiered rows of infantry & vehicles available once certain team based objectives are completed...
Perhaps even stuff like it takes for your team to have to of killed the enemy harvester before you get a trickle...
It's harmless to start from scratch and have a think about it.
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Re: Measuring and rewarding team work programatically? [message #436921 is a reply to message #436910] |
Fri, 24 September 2010 00:16 ![Go to previous message Go to previous message](/theme/Renegade_Forums/images/up.png) ![Go to next message Go to next message](/theme/Renegade_Forums/images/down.png) |
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snpr1101
Messages: 425 Registered: June 2007 Location: Australia
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Commander |
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GEORGE ZIMMER wrote on Thu, 23 September 2010 21:47 |
trooprm02 wrote on Thu, 23 September 2010 18:29 |
reborn wrote on Wed, 22 September 2010 14:27 | It's not even enough of an advantage to stop a player from enjoying the game
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Well, after playing Renegade on pure servers, and experimenting the last couple on server that run the Veteran system, I can tell you ever single version of it has been overpowered. Especially "basic" stuff like HP/armour upgrades to inf/vechs, both DRAMATICALLY change gameplay (compared to stock ren), let alone a team based version ![Razz](images/smiley_icons/icon_razz.gif)
What I meant by RTS, is that its not upgrade based like CoD only because upgrades aren't kept after the round is over...but that every map will still have a tiered progression path which Renegade wasn't designed for (the idea instead being a rock paper scissors type gameplay).
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Actually, Renegade was intended to have a ton of upgrades... and rock paper scissors my ass. The basic soldier is at a huge disadvantage to other, purchasable classes. Though amongst the basic infantry, he's the best, which hardly gives off a rock paper scissors feel.
Renegade's actually been all about "upgrading" your character. Vehicle, now THOSE should not get any upgrades. They weren't intended to be like that.
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How does one upgrade to a Medium Tank? How do you upgrade a SBH? I was under the impression that different units are used for different situations. Each character and unit in Renegade is unique and one does not upgrade the other. The mod is proposing to give small offensive and defensive benefits to your current unit. It's not trying to replace or add to a supposed "Renegade character and unit upgrade game mechanic" because there's no such thing.
I also agree that Renegade and it's units are not based upon rock paper scissors. Again, I think it's all situational. As you suggest, a soldier may be at a huge disadvantage to another class (i.e sniper). Slower bullet speed + distance = minimal damage output. However if you shorten the range between the two the situation changes. RoF of Auto Rifle at Close range + HS = dead sniper.
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Re: Measuring and rewarding team work programatically? [message #436924 is a reply to message #436921] |
Fri, 24 September 2010 00:48 ![Go to previous message Go to previous message](/theme/Renegade_Forums/images/up.png) ![Go to next message Go to next message](/theme/Renegade_Forums/images/down.png) |
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GEORGE ZIMMER
Messages: 2605 Registered: March 2006
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General (2 Stars) |
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snpr1101 wrote on Fri, 24 September 2010 02:16 | How does one upgrade to a Medium Tank?
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Already said vehicles don't need upgrades; they clearly were never INTENDED to be upgraded in any form.
snpr1101 wrote on Fri, 24 September 2010 02:16 | How do you upgrade a SBH?
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SBH is one of the handful of characters that doesn't really have any weaker or stronger versions of itself.
snpr1101 wrote on Fri, 24 September 2010 02:16 | I was under the impression that different units are used for different situations.
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"Flamethrower rush the barracks!"
Ever heard that? Probably not, the only time you would is if the HoN was down or it was really early game. The second your team can get chem troopers (which is rather quick), flamethrowers are completely obsolete with no other purpose than being a cheaper, weaker chemtrooper.
snpr1101 wrote on Fri, 24 September 2010 02:16 | Each character and unit in Renegade is unique and one does not upgrade the other.
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lol wut
If you have 1,000 and can't buy vehicles, do you buy a basic soldier because it's going to be more effective than other units? No, if you want a shooter, you'd go for Mobius/Mendoza (although they're not that effective so you're better off getting a PIC/Rav or Havoc/Sakura... which only further demolishes the suggestion that Renegade is "rock paper scissors")
snpr1101 wrote on Fri, 24 September 2010 02:16 | The mod is proposing to give small offensive and defensive benefits to your current unit. It's not trying to replace or add to a supposed "Renegade character and unit upgrade game mechanic" because there's no such thing.
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I know it's not quite its intention, but I'm saying Renegade's infantry are already based off the idea that you spend more money to gain an upgraded character basically. Infact, if you looked at various Renegade files and in Level Edit, you'd see that Westwood fully intended for every character to be an upgrade of the 4 basic classes (CnC_Nod_Flamethrower_0, then CnC_Nod_Flamethrower_1Off... Off being short for Officer, then 2SF for Special Forces, and so on). But since Renegade is a half finished game and they threw some of the stuff together last minute, they never really went through with that. Kinda for the better, I do like that some infantry units are more unique than just being PURE upgrades of previous characters... but come on, can you really, REALLY say that a GDI Soldier is on par with, say, Patch or even the GDI Officer? Or that the Nod officer is on par with the Black Hand LCG? They can do what the former can do, only better.
snpr1101 wrote on Fri, 24 September 2010 02:16 | I also agree that Renegade and it's units are not based upon rock paper scissors. Again, I think it's all situational. As you suggest, a soldier may be at a huge disadvantage to another class (i.e sniper). Slower bullet speed + distance = minimal damage output. However if you shorten the range between the two the situation changes. RoF of Auto Rifle at Close range + HS = dead sniper.
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Yes, of course that changes things if you shorten the range, but that hardly has much to do with the fact that you'd do it so much easier as a GDI Officer than a GDI Soldier when you try to kill a Sakura. There is literally no advantage the GDI Soldier holds over the GDI Officer or Mobius. The only advantage he holds over Patch is that Patch's damage vs Chemtroopers is minimized... but that's such a tiny situational difference that it's a moot point to say the GDI Soldier is on par with patch and thus a worthwhile alternative to being Patch.
Toggle SpoilerScrin wrote on Sat, 24 January 2009 13:22 |
cAmpa wrote on Sat, 24 January 2009 12:45 | Scrin, stop pming people to get the building bars.
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FUCK YOU AND THIS SHIT GAME WITH YOUR SCRIPTS!!! I HAVE ASKING YOU AND ANOTHER NOOBS HERE ABOUT HELP WITH THAT BUILDING ICONS FEATURES FOR YEARS, BUT YOU KEEP IGNORING ME AND KEEP WRITE SHIT, SO BURN YOU AND YOUR ASSLICKERS FRIENDS, THIS TIME I'M NOT COME BACK!!!!!!!!!
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Re: Measuring and rewarding team work programatically? [message #437010 is a reply to message #436910] |
Sat, 25 September 2010 20:20 ![Go to previous message Go to previous message](/theme/Renegade_Forums/images/up.png) ![Go to next message Go to next message](/theme/Renegade_Forums/images/down.png) |
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trooprm02
Messages: 3266 Registered: August 2005 Location: Canada
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General (3 Stars) |
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GEORGE ZIMMER wrote on Thu, 23 September 2010 21:47 |
trooprm02 wrote on Thu, 23 September 2010 18:29 |
reborn wrote on Wed, 22 September 2010 14:27 | It's not even enough of an advantage to stop a player from enjoying the game
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Well, after playing Renegade on pure servers, and experimenting the last couple on server that run the Veteran system, I can tell you ever single version of it has been overpowered. Especially "basic" stuff like HP/armour upgrades to inf/vechs, both DRAMATICALLY change gameplay (compared to stock ren), let alone a team based version ![Razz](images/smiley_icons/icon_razz.gif)
What I meant by RTS, is that its not upgrade based like CoD only because upgrades aren't kept after the round is over...but that every map will still have a tiered progression path which Renegade wasn't designed for (the idea instead being a rock paper scissors type gameplay).
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Actually, Renegade was intended to have a ton of upgrades... and rock paper scissors my ass. The basic soldier is at a huge disadvantage to other, purchasable classes. Though amongst the basic infantry, he's the best, which hardly gives off a rock paper scissors feel.
Renegade's actually been all about "upgrading" your character. Vehicle, now THOSE should not get any upgrades. They weren't intended to be like that.
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That's not always the case...sometimes a cheaper inf/vech is the best way to kill a more expensive one. About free inf, there is a rock paper scissors feel between themselves. I think you really have to understand the game dynamic before you see it the way I do (im not saying you don't know what im saying, but if you've never played in higher, competitive games, you would have never seen it yourself).
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Re: Measuring and rewarding team work programatically? [message #437241 is a reply to message #436910] |
Thu, 30 September 2010 12:48 ![Go to previous message Go to previous message](/theme/Renegade_Forums/images/up.png) |
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Jerad2142
Messages: 3808 Registered: July 2006 Location: USA
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General (3 Stars) |
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GEORGE ZIMMER wrote on Thu, 23 September 2010 20:47 |
trooprm02 wrote on Thu, 23 September 2010 18:29 |
reborn wrote on Wed, 22 September 2010 14:27 | It's not even enough of an advantage to stop a player from enjoying the game
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Well, after playing Renegade on pure servers, and experimenting the last couple on server that run the Veteran system, I can tell you ever single version of it has been overpowered. Especially "basic" stuff like HP/armour upgrades to inf/vechs, both DRAMATICALLY change gameplay (compared to stock ren), let alone a team based version ![Razz](images/smiley_icons/icon_razz.gif)
What I meant by RTS, is that its not upgrade based like CoD only because upgrades aren't kept after the round is over...but that every map will still have a tiered progression path which Renegade wasn't designed for (the idea instead being a rock paper scissors type gameplay).
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Actually, Renegade was intended to have a ton of upgrades... and rock paper scissors my ass. The basic soldier is at a huge disadvantage to other, purchasable classes. Though amongst the basic infantry, he's the best, which hardly gives off a rock paper scissors feel.
Renegade's actually been all about "upgrading" your character. Vehicle, now THOSE should not get any upgrades. They weren't intended to be like that.
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I disagree, the GDI grenade launcher rapes the Nod Rifle infantry in many situations.
Visit Jerad's deer sweat shop
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