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Re: Jus wondering .. [message #428558 is a reply to message #428554]

Sun, 16 May 2010 16:30

GEORGE ZIMMER
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EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Sun, 16 May 2010 18:03

Spoony wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 00:39

luv2pb wrote on Sun, 16 May 2010 14:09

0x90 is someone you want on your side and could be a HUGE asset to Renegade. Any one who thinks he should be banned is either misinformed or completely retarded.

some of the things you've said about 0x90 along these lines are not just ridiculous, they're insultingly ridiculous

From you yes.

Why didn't this topic stay locked? It has no purpose.

That's a little ridiculous. I see why you don't want to just ban someone, but to imply that what Spoony is saying about 0x90 is "ridiculous"... come on.

Really, I see Spoony's point of view. Sure, 0x90 hasn't broken rules here exactly, but that's like saying a criminal who killed someone in town A should be allowed to live happily in town B because he didn't kill anyone there, and isn't killing anyone there.

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Re: Jus wondering .. [message #428564 is a reply to message #427982]

Sun, 16 May 2010 22:59

snpr1101
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Commander

Whilst I don't fully support luv2pb's view, there is some truth to it.

What will banning the guy actually achieve? Will it stop him from making cheats if he so desires? - Of course not.

Have the people of Renegade forums suddenly turned into internet white knites; up in arms because someone breached a holy moral commandment - thou shalt not maketh or cheat? As soon as he's banned, will you all be able to sleep at night because your mind is no longer in turmoil thinking about how wrong it is not to ban him?

Considering the amount of shit that is written here, I highly doubt it.

If we're so anal about banning those who have associated themselves with cheats, it'd be hypocrisy not to go ahead and ban everyone who has cheated / made them / associated in some way with them in the past.

If that doesn't change your mind, consider letting him stay on the condition he codes something useful for Renegade. A contribution to Anti-Cheats for example.

Then again, would it be unreasonable to ask if he would actually bother putting a considerable amount of effort and time into creating an ati-cheat or try and justify himself for the sake of belonging to a forum?

I suppose it depends on how important this forum is to him. It would be a greater loss to those who still play renegade to ban the guy; lose an opportunity to make C&C Ren a better experience for all.

[Updated on: Sun, 16 May 2010 23:48]

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Re: Jus wondering .. [message #428568 is a reply to message #427982]

Mon, 17 May 2010 01:17

Reaver11
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Colonel

It's easy as long as 0x90 has a challange in making hacks for Renegade he will continue.
History learns it takes longer to make a anti-cheat then a cheat.

This is why I find it funny that people are discussing 0x90.
Simply said there is nothing you can do about him so why not spend your time on usefull things?
Like getting TT done, so it can actually make your last Renegade days a happy time.

I have said it before in other topics, go play Renegade and enjoy it till it lasts.
Whetever that is a week or even another year. (or who knows years!)

Please just lock this thread again!

[Updated on: Mon, 17 May 2010 01:18]

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Re: Jus wondering .. [message #428569 is a reply to message #428564]

Mon, 17 May 2010 01:29

GEORGE ZIMMER
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snpr1101 wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 00:59

What will banning the guy actually achieve? Will it stop him from making cheats if he so desires? - Of course not.

Nope, but making him unwelcome on every corner of the Renegade community could prove eventful. I don't see why we have to allow someone who is obviously harmful to this community.

snpr1101 wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 00:59

Have the people of Renegade forums suddenly turned into internet white knites; up in arms because someone breached a holy moral commandment - thou shalt not maketh or cheat?

Because that's totally what's happening, right?

Yeah, no. What's happening is that Spoony (and I, and anyone else who has a sane mind) thinks it's best to not welcome 0x90 in ANY corner of the Renegade community. He's done nothing but HARM it.

snpr1101 wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 00:59

As soon as he's banned, will you all be able to sleep at night because your mind is no longer in turmoil thinking about how wrong it is not to ban him?

Stop with the retarded ad hominem. It gets old after the first time.

But yes, if you're so curious, it'd sure as hell make things MUCH nicer around here if 0x90 was that much more unwelcome.

snpr1101 wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 00:59

If we're so anal about banning those who have associated themselves with cheats, it'd be hypocrisy not to go ahead and ban everyone who has cheated / made them / associated in some way with them in the past.

Justice isn't that simple. If every person was convicted the same way for similar crimes, it's no longer justice- it's just reaction.

snpr1101 wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 00:59

If that doesn't change your mind, consider letting him stay on the condition he codes something useful for Renegade. A contribution to Anti-Cheats for example.

So uh, I dunno if I'm the only one to point this out, but why the hell would it be a good idea to give someone who makes cheats to be in control of an anti cheat?

And no, "the FBI hires hackers to fight hackers, so there!" is not a valid argument.

snpr1101 wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 00:59

Then again, would it be unreasonable to ask if he would actually bother putting a considerable amount of effort and time into creating an ati-cheat or try and justify himself for the sake of belonging to a forum?

Considering the amount of damage he's done to the community... I'd say no, it's not unreasonable whatsoever. He has to redeem himself somehow, but he obviously has no intention to stop making cheats (which is the only way to redeem himself).

snpr1101 wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 00:59

I suppose it depends on how important this forum is to him. It would be a greater loss to those who still play renegade to ban the guy; lose an opportunity to make C&C Ren a better experience for all.

Yeah, no. See above. It'd be utterly stupid to let a guy who makes cheats to know the inner workings of something that FIGHTS cheats.

Once again, let me try and make you guys understand- it's not just blind "HURF DURF, LETS BAN THIS GUY CUZ I DON'T LIKE HIM". Banning him serves a purpose, moreso than banning anyone else- it's a way of saying "Fuck you, you're not wanted here."

Unless, he really IS wanted here... in which case, I've pretty much lost all hope in the Renegade community. I don't think I have to explain why.

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Re: Jus wondering .. [message #428571 is a reply to message #428558]

Mon, 17 May 2010 02:58

EvilWhiteDragon
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GEORGE ZIMMER wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 01:30

EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Sun, 16 May 2010 18:03

Spoony wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 00:39

luv2pb wrote on Sun, 16 May 2010 14:09

0x90 is someone you want on your side and could be a HUGE asset to Renegade. Any one who thinks he should be banned is either misinformed or completely retarded.

some of the things you've said about 0x90 along these lines are not just ridiculous, they're insultingly ridiculous

From you yes.

Why didn't this topic stay locked? It has no purpose.

It's about as ridicules as they way Spoony presents his arguements. Either you agree with him or you are a fucking stupid retarded cheating insulting bitch. Or similar. That does not make any argument a viable, thus one doesn't even need to bother responding decently on it.
I know Spoony's opinion, all fine and dandy, but I cannot agree with the knowledge I have. That does not make me stupid or wwhatever, that makes me having a different opinion than Spoony. Sppony however, being thickheaded as he is, will continuing arguing (with the same arguments) until I/whomever stop replying and think he made is point.
Also he uses information that was trusted to him (being on TT) and uses it to suggest I personally killed CW (well, nearly anyway). That makes his arguments at least just as retarded as the post you quoted.

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Re: Jus wondering .. [message #428576 is a reply to message #428571]

Mon, 17 May 2010 04:51

Spoony
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EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 04:58

It's about as ridicules as they way Spoony presents his arguements. Either you agree with him or you are a fucking stupid retarded cheating insulting bitch. Or similar.

You're being dishonest. I don't go around saying that anyone disagreeing with me is a "fucking stupid retarded cheating insulting bitch". I do describe 0x90 along similar lines, because that's what he is, and I do also think it's worth trying to make you see what a low, corrupt thing you've just done and how much more pathetic it makes you look by trying to make me the bad guy to wriggle out of it.

Quote:

That does not make any argument a viable, thus one doesn't even need to bother responding decently on it.

your responses were indecent before i addressed you at all, and anyone can check that point very easily by looking at page three.

Quote:

I know Spoony's opinion, all fine and dandy, but I cannot agree with the knowledge I have. That does not make me stupid or wwhatever, that makes me having a different opinion than Spoony. Sppony however, being thickheaded as he is, will continuing arguing (with the same arguments) until I/whomever stop replying and think he made is point.

it's more to do with the fact i seem to care about honesty, trustworthiness etc than anyone in TT seems to - at least, that would be the case if what you said about most of TT being on your side is true. yes, i am going to try to talk some fucking sense into you, because you desperately need it right now.

Quote:

Also he uses information that was trusted to him (being on TT) and uses it to suggest I personally killed CW (well, nearly anyway). That makes his arguments at least just as retarded as the post you quoted.

Now you're just flat out lying. I can't imagine why you would think you would get away with that, the thread's still here for anyone to see; it's not like any significant time has passed and people would have forgotten what everybody said therein.

There is perhaps a silver lining, though... maybe the fact you're resorting to such desperate measures now is a sign that you realise just what a desperate situation you put yourself in.

Quote:

What will banning the guy actually achieve?

firstly it's an achievement in and of itself. secondly it might repair some of the damage to the forum's reputation by the stand it's took on matters like this in the past, though I think the less I say about that the happier some of the admins might be. thirdly, it continually amazes me how many people are so quick to ask this question... somebody does something incredibly destructive? let's find a reason not to show him we mind!

Quote:

Have the people of Renegade forums suddenly turned into internet white knites; up in arms because someone breached a holy moral commandment - thou shalt not maketh or cheat?

I don't know about "suddenly", I was saying this years ago and he's made more cheats since then (not being banned in the meantime)

Quote:

If that doesn't change your mind, consider letting him stay on the condition he codes something useful for Renegade. A contribution to Anti-Cheats for example.

Then again, would it be unreasonable to ask if he would actually bother putting a considerable amount of effort and time into creating an ati-cheat or try and justify himself for the sake of belonging to a forum?

if you check what i said earlier, you'll see me saying that if he wants people to stop thinking and saying what a piece of shit he is, he ought to try undoing the damage he's done. i don't think he's skilled enough and i don't think he would have the decency to do a good deed (although if he did make a complete anti-cheat, that would end up putting him on '0' on the moral scale, let's be clear about that)

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[Updated on: Mon, 17 May 2010 09:02]

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Re: Jus wondering .. [message #428577 is a reply to message #428571]

Mon, 17 May 2010 05:00

Kimb
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EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 04:58

It's about as ridicules as they way Spoony presents his arguements.

WTF? He made his point, and so did you, dosnt matter how, do it?

EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 04:58

Either you agree with him or you are a fucking stupid retarded cheating insulting bitch. Or similar. That does not make any argument a viable, thus one doesn't even need to bother responding decently on it.

I cant remember reading anything that have with what you just said, the point is that since 0x90 made *cheat name removed* that basicly killed some comms should be making a anti-cheat? helping TT? in what way? why would he halp when hes updating *cheat name removed* all the time? Already his 2.0 version have reached 100+ downloads, as someone mentioned before, thats ALOT like 1/3 of the players

EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 04:58

Spoony never said you were stupid, just that if you let 0x90 continue what hes doing with consequence he wont stop, but banning him would show him that "we" care. Not everyone share this view ofc, but that do not make others stupid

EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 04:58

I dont see where he suggested that YOU killed CW in no way, he said that 0x90 is responsible for it, because server owners used *cheat name removed*

What we think, or what we know, or what we believe is, in the end, of little consequence. The only consequence is what we do.

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Re: Jus wondering .. [message #428585 is a reply to message #428577]

Mon, 17 May 2010 09:15

Spoony
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Kimb wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 07:00

let's be clear here. EWD doesn't just think 0x90 shouldn't be banned because he hasn't broken any rules. it wouldn't be too bad if that's all was happening here. it's much worse. EWD, and he's not the only one, thinks 0x90 needs to be protected from being flamed by those of us who don't mind saying the obvious. and not just that - he's quite happy to call for a public "bashing" of a fellow TT member (who's always been honest and always been on the correct side of the anti-cheat fight, which isn't the case for everyone in TT, i can tell you that) to help achieve it.

look at that situation for what it is. in a considered statement, he's attacked Spoony for the stated purpose that he wants to get into 0x90's good books. and he's tried to justify this by saying there's no point keeping me as an ally because clanwars is dead, so obviously it makes much more sense to take sides with the son of a bitch who killed it.

all told, this is one of the most disgraceful things i've ever seen in my involvement with this game, and i must say it came as a surprise that EWD would sink so low.

and like i said, he isn't the only prominent person to think things as ludicrous as this. if EWD is right and most of TT agrees with him, then we really, really have a problem.

let me finish by repeating what i said several pages ago. if 0x90 wants to be thought of as anything other than a petulant, vacuous piece of shit in this community, then yes, he ought to do something repair the extraordinary amount of damage he has done to this game and we should take every opportunity to remind him what a cunt he is until he does so.

Quote:

EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 04:58

I dont see where he suggested that YOU killed CW in no way, he said that 0x90 is responsible for it, because server owners used *cheat name removed*

there's no need to refute that, kimb... anyone seriously reading this thread can see EWD was lying through his teeth when he said that. it clearly wasn't a misunderstanding, it was a desperate and dishonest tactic which only an idiot would have thought would work.

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Re: Jus wondering .. [message #428593 is a reply to message #427982]

Mon, 17 May 2010 12:24

nikki6ixx
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I don't care what internal politics are going on. What I, and much of the remaining community do care about is when this thing is going to be released. 'Done when it's done' is no longer good enough. Instead of engaging the community, it seems some members of the team prefer to insult those who have legitimate concerns, or repudiate them entirely aka, asking that threads be locked.

Seeing as TT is a project that is supposed to require community support, I'd say its participants ought to be a bit more magnanimous, or at the end of the day, they'll have damaged Renegade as much as 0x90.

Renegade:

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Re: Jus wondering .. [message #428594 is a reply to message #428593]

Mon, 17 May 2010 12:28

GEORGE ZIMMER
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nikki6ixx wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 14:24

I don't think these arguments really do hold anything up, though. Unless EWD pulls an immature move like quitting the TT team because Spoony called him a faggot (not literally, but you know what I mean)- which I doubt he'd do- it's unlikely arguments like this will affect much of TT.

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Re: Jus wondering .. [message #428597 is a reply to message #428594]

Mon, 17 May 2010 12:38

nikki6ixx
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GEORGE ZIMMER wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 14:28

nikki6ixx wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 14:24

It's not a matter of holding things up. It's a question of the judgement of those that the community has entrusted with this decidedly challenging undertaking. Because we don't get updates, because we don't get to see what's going on, all we can rely on is mere words from people working on the project.

If a team-member comes out on the offensive, and nobody else objects or tries to mediate that response, I, at least, am going to assume the team views the rest of us as a bunch of dummies not worth their time. The response from a couple people who argue that 0x90 can be some sort of asset or ally, and then saying anyone who disagrees is a 'retard' is not good PR, especially when sheer facts overrule their statement in the first place.

On the whole, this affects TT because it only makes people upset. On the internet, people are fickle, so when it's showtime, and the community supposedly votes (how else can we agree) on TT, the results could end up being disappointing.

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Re: Jus wondering .. [message #428600 is a reply to message #428597]

Mon, 17 May 2010 13:01

Spoony
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nikki6ixx wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 14:38

The response from a couple people who argue that 0x90 can be some sort of asset or ally, and then saying anyone who disagrees is a 'retard' is not good PR, especially when sheer facts overrule their statement in the first place.

i'm sorry to say that this is only the tip of the iceberg.

and if we consider TT to be a ship for a moment then, as metaphors go, it's not bad.

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Re: Jus wondering .. [message #428611 is a reply to message #428585]

Mon, 17 May 2010 16:29

EvilWhiteDragon
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Spoony wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 18:15

Kimb wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 07:00

Let me bring it down to Spoony's level: lollololollo. It's mostly rubbish/ opinion what you write here.

Quote:

look at that situation for what it is. in a considered statement, he's attacked Spoony for the stated purpose that he wants to get into 0x90's good books. and he's tried to justify this by saying there's no point keeping me as an ally because clanwars is dead, so obviously it makes much more sense to take sides with the son of a bitch who killed it.

Yeah, right. I got a feeling you're hinting at something? Why would I need 0x90's good side? If you mean something then SAY IT. I think he's not too bad as a person, certainly, but I don't agree with him cheating in any way. I must however also note that he also created exploits which can crash servers easily. He apparently tested it on Jelly's server 3 times on one afternoon. I don't agree to that for sure. However, I did ask him to test it on the BI server. You know why? Because we already improved some protection/exploits which will also be in TT. Now we know TT will be save from that particular exploit.

On the suggestioon that you're being useless, basically it's true. You were asked on the team for clanwars. Somewhere in this topic you said competitive renegade is dead. Then what's your purpose then? It's not like the rest of the TT team doesn't know how to play Renegade, or how public games work. I think that with NS and BI we've proven to know what public players enjoy.

Quote:

all told, this is one of the most disgraceful things i've ever seen in my involvement with this game, and i must say it came as a surprise that EWD would sink so low.

Opinion, which I obviously do not care about.

Quote:

and like i said, he isn't the only prominent person to think things as ludicrous as this. if EWD is right and most of TT agrees with him, then we really, really have a problem.

Yes of course, we really really have a problem because you know, 0x90 will kill us all on RF. If we not ban him there is no telling what horrors he could do.
TT wants to be able to communicate with 0x90, and letting him be here and letting him see what havoc his cheats cause are probably more convincing to stop than banning him.

Oh btw, we're on purposely delaying TT so 0x90 can cheat more. That's how evil we are. You again forget to mention how much time the whole team you apparently don't support even more spends on this project. You also prove my point on the cheat community being much more grateful than the normal Renegade community.

Oh and btw, you have quite some nerve speaking to me like this. I am the original mind behind BIATCH. I though up the concept works, StealthEye created it. Name one decent server that's not using it, so don't suggest I'm pro-cheating here, or anyone on the TT team. If you do want to suggest so, then please call names and show proof. SirKane has been dealt with as you should obviously know.

Quote:

let me finish by repeating what i said several pages ago. if 0x90 wants to be thought of as anything other than a petulant, vacuous piece of shit in this community, then yes, he ought to do something repair the extraordinary amount of damage he has done to this game and we should take every opportunity to remind him what a cunt he is until he does so.

Good luck reminding him on UC. You wanted him gone right? Then you can't remind him. That is your flaw.

Quote:

EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 04:58

I dont see where he suggested that YOU killed CW in no way, he said that 0x90 is responsible for it, because server owners used *cheat name removed*

Thank you for your cooperation Spoony. You're always calling people that disagree lairs. The point I was making was you you, as you do here in perfect honesty, are trying to make me look bad, while in fact I dare say I did more than 90% of the people here to keep Renegade alive. So thank you, for showing everyone what an asshole you are.
Also, presume that I would quit Renegade and such. What would you think would happen? At best, very little, but more probably BI would die fast, which would probably make StealthEye lose interest. Take a guess who on TT is probably best able to help others define what to code? I guess Saberhawk comes very close, or might be a tad better, but he's not as much around due to college and such.

Oh and Nikki, if you're addressing me, then I shall explain why I want the topic locked.
1. It has been discussed many times. Spoony now actively engaging because his precious CW.cc is dead, claiming it's just cheats that killed it. (Has anyone noticed there are just generally less players online? Surely that is only because of cheats [/sarcasm])
2. Spoony is being disruptive regarding goals the TT team wants to achieve, and him doing so in public will indeed make the urge for a good TT release only greater, but it does also hamper the team, causing it to work less effective.

That is the main reason why this thread should've stayed locked. No good can come from it. Spoony will only stop when everyone stops replying or when he got what he wanted, like a little child.
The, to me, most offensive part is that Spoony totally neglected any reasoning I gave him in private on why we can't have this. That is a real issue when someone is on a team which should work together.

One more thing, the TT team here doesn't decide who get's banned or not, that's still up to Crimson (and/or Gozy). Only from the general opinion of the TT team it wouldn't help us make 4.0 as good as it should be.

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Re: Jus wondering .. [message #428612 is a reply to message #428611]

Mon, 17 May 2010 17:01

GEORGE ZIMMER
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EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 18:29

Let me bring it down to Spoony's level: lollololollo. It's mostly rubbish/ opinion what you write here.

I've yet to ever see Spoony go "lollololollo"... so, basically, you're using the tried-and-true method of "HEY GUIZE LOOK HOW DUMB I AM! LOL, THATS YOU, THAT'S WHAT YOU LOOK LIKE RIGHT NOW!". Fantastic.

EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 18:29

Yeah, right. I got a feeling you're hinting at something? Why would I need 0x90's good side? If you mean something then SAY IT.

I'm... I'm pretty sure what he said was pretty straightforward. That's hardly hinting at anything :\

EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 18:29

I think he's not too bad as a person, certainly, but I don't agree with him cheating in any way.

he's responsible for running Renegade further into the ground

There is no other way to put that. Even if he's polite, that doesn't matter- so are sociopaths, that doesn't mean they should be allowed to just walk the streets.

EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 18:29

I must however also note that he also created exploits which can crash servers easily. He apparently tested it on Jelly's server 3 times on one afternoon. I don't agree to that for sure. However, I did ask him to test it on the BI server. You know why? Because we already improved some protection/exploits which will also be in TT. Now we know TT will be save from that particular exploit.

what the fuck logic is that

"It's good to have him because we can protect ourselves from the very things he's creating". We might as well allow murderers to be murderers, so we can know how to protect ourselves from them- rather than, you know, get rid of them entirely.

It certainly won't encourage them to continue doing what they do. Nope. Definitely not.

Sarcasm

EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 18:29

On the suggestioon that you're being useless, basically it's true.

Personally, I don't give a shit about clanwars or the like. But that's a douche thing to say, dude.

EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 18:29

You were asked on the team for clanwars. Somewhere in this topic you said competitive renegade is dead.

Because of the mass amounts of cheats. His point there is it WOULDN'T BE DEAD if 0x90 wasn't around. 0x90 wouldn't be around as much, if we just banned him from everything and told him to FUCK OFF.

EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 18:29

Then what's your purpose then? It's not like the rest of the TT team doesn't know how to play Renegade, or how public games work. I think that with NS and BI we've proven to know what public players enjoy.

I don't know how much the entire team knows about Renegade's general flow of gameplay, but after playing a good few games with Spoony, I can safely say he knows a shitton about the gameplay flow. It's good to know what can and can't affect the gameplay balance- which is pretty important when you do certain things like adding/removing pointsfix.

EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 18:29

Opinion, which I obviously do not care about.

of course it's opinion, but he has a point- you're sinking pretty low here (Calling him useless, basically taking 0x90's side...).

EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 18:29

Yes of course, we really really have a problem because you know, 0x90 will kill us all on RF. If we not ban him there is no telling what horrors he could do.

Nice exaggeration- except, you know, that's totally irrelevant. If you're trying to say "Keeping him here doesn't harm anything", yes, you're right. But what you're missing is this point: Removing him from this community- and many others- could very well prove to be useful.

Once again, it's the banning him that's more important than him being here.

EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 18:29

TT wants to be able to communicate with 0x90, and letting him be here and letting him see what havoc his cheats cause are probably more convincing to stop than banning him.

...are you seriously suggesting he DOESN'T know the shit he's brought to the Renegade community? REALLY?

I don't know what's worse- knowing you're doing something wrong and still doing it, or not knowing you're doing something so obviously wrong.

EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 18:29

Oh btw, we're on purposely delaying TT so 0x90 can cheat more. That's how evil we are.

herpa de derpa, we're clearly saying the whole TT team is evil, right? No, we're not. Comments like that have no place in this argument. At all.

EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 18:29

You again forget to mention how much time the whole team you apparently don't support even more spends on this project. You also prove my point on the cheat community being much more grateful than the normal Renegade community.

All of us know how much time you guys spend into it. And we're plenty grateful. Just because Spoony and I say you're retarded for supporting 0x90, that doesn't mean we don't appreciate anything else you've done. It's possible for people to NOT be overly generalizing douchebags, y'know.

EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 18:29

Oh and btw, you have quite some nerve speaking to me like this. I am the original mind behind BIATCH.

We know. I don't see what place that has here- both Spoony and you have done work to help the Renegade community. Don't turn this into a dickswinging contest, pleas
e.

EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 18:29

don't suggest I'm pro-cheating here, or anyone on the TT team.

We're not much suggesting you're pro-cheating- we're saying you're not understanding that banning 0x90 would prove more useful than simply keeping him around. He does NOTHING GOOD. Just because he SOMETIMES gives examples of the shit he does, getting rid of him entirely would prove to be more useful.

EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 18:29

Good luck reminding him on UC. You wanted him gone right? Then you can't remind him. That is your flaw.

That argument only applies if he was already banned. Which he's not. Besides, it's still possible to contact him otherwise (since, you claim he'd never go away anyway...)

EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 18:29

Thank you for your cooperation Spoony. You're always calling people that disagree lairs.

Not really- he just calls people out on their ridiculous amount of bullshit. I've argued with Spoony plenty of times; even I'd notice that.

EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 18:29

The point I was making was you you, as you do here in perfect honesty, are trying to make me look bad, while in fact I dare say I did more than 90% of the people here to keep Renegade alive. So thank you, for showing everyone what an asshole you are.

He's not trying to make you look bad- he's saying you make YOURSELF look bad by refusing to take action against a known cheat maker (who, by the way, refuses to fix the damage he does, like an immature, cynical teenager).

also, lol, more dickswinging. Fantastic.

EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 18:29

Also, presume that I would quit Renegade and such. What would you think would happen? At best, very little, but more probably BI would die fast, which would probably make StealthEye lose interest. Take a guess who on TT is probably best able to help others define what to code? I guess Saberhawk comes very close, or might be a tad better, but he's not as much around due to college and such.

even more dickswinging; has no place here, Spoony is not saying you leave.

EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 18:29

1. It has been discussed many times. Spoony now actively engaging because his precious CW.cc is dead, claiming it's just cheats that killed it. (Has anyone noticed there are just generally less players online? Surely that is only because of cheats [/sarcasm])

I rarely see these discussions, because they get locked frequently most likely. This discussion is necessary. I find it funny that you refuse to acknowledge how much damage 0x90 has really done to the Renegade community.

EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 18:29

2. Spoony is being disruptive regarding goals the TT team wants to achieve, and him doing so in public will indeed make the urge for a good TT release only greater, but it does also hamper the team, causing it to work less effective.

Wait, what? How is Spoony disrupting the work TT is doing...?

EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 18:29

That is the main reason why this thread should've stayed locked. No good can come from it. Spoony will only stop when everyone stops replying or when he got what he wanted, like a little child.

Plenty of good can come of it. If 0x90 is finally that much more unwelcome in the Renegade community (which the little turd should be), it can have a GOOD effect. Maybe you just can't see the big picture, but I guarantee that's how it'd pan out.

And nice ad hominem. That's not going to get us anywhere, though.

EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 18:29

The, to me, most offensive part is that Spoony totally neglected any reasoning I gave him in private on why we can't have this. That is a real issue when someone is on a team which should work together.

And what would that be? If there's some kind of behind-the-scenes dickery that Spoony is behind, then please- let us know.

EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 18:29

One more thing, the TT team here doesn't decide who get's banned or not, that's still up to Crimson (and/or Gozy). Only from the general opinion of the TT team it wouldn't help us make 4.0 as good as it should be.

Of course. Really, YOU'RE the only one who's bringing TT into this... Spoony's just saying you're a daft cock for not realizing what a little twat 0x90 is.

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Re: Jus wondering .. [message #428613 is a reply to message #428611]

Mon, 17 May 2010 17:34

Spoony
Messages: 3915
Registered: January 2006

Karma: 0

General (3 Stars)
Tactics & Strategies Moderator

EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 18:29

Spoony wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 18:15

Kimb wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 07:00

Let me bring it down to Spoony's level: lollololollo. It's mostly rubbish/ opinion what you write here.

what a sad excuse for a rebuttal.

Quote:

Yeah, right. I got a feeling you're hinting at something? Why would I need 0x90's good side? If you mean something then SAY IT.

hmmm, are you trying to get me to repeat what you said in private?

Quote:

I think he's not too bad as a person, certainly, but I don't agree with him cheating in any way. I must however also note that he also created exploits which can crash servers easily. He apparently tested it on Jelly's server 3 times on one afternoon. I don't agree to that for sure.

This is the worst I've heard you say about him, and it pales compared to what you've said about me. Thanks for reinforcing my point... you've chosen who you want as an ally.

Quote:

On the suggestioon that you're being useless, basically it's true. You were asked on the team for clanwars. Somewhere in this topic you said competitive renegade is dead. Then what's your purpose then? It's not like the rest of the TT team doesn't know how to play Renegade, or how public games work.

competitive Renegade is not dead. the second RGCT has just started, in case you missed it... the ingame rules of which are basically a copy-paste of the rules i drew up for clanwars. as for my continued purpose on the team, i don't like to boast but i think my understanding of the game from a tactical perspective is probably better than anyone you can name, which doesn't only restrict itself to clanwars.

Quote:

all told, this is one of the most disgraceful things i've ever seen in my involvement with this game, and i must say it came as a surprise that EWD would sink so low.

Opinion, which I obviously do not care about.

Quote:

and like i said, he isn't the only prominent person to think things as ludicrous as this. if EWD is right and most of TT agrees with him, then we really, really have a problem.

Yes of course, we really really have a problem because you know, 0x90 will kill us all on RF. If we not ban him there is no telling what horrors he could do.

i didn't mean we'd have a huge problem if we don't ban him from this forum, i mean we'd have a huge problem if most of TT is so keen as you to make a deal with the devil... so keen you'd turn on a trusted colleague to help achieve it.

Quote:

TT wants to be able to communicate with 0x90, and letting him be here and letting him see what havoc his cheats cause are probably more convincing to stop than banning him.

that's interesting, you're saying we SHOULD be free to tell us what a cunt he is, how much damage he has done? funny, last time i did that you decided to defend him and call for a "spoony bashing"

Quote:

Oh btw, we're on purposely delaying TT so 0x90 can cheat more. That's how evil we are.

do you think you make your argument stronger or weaker by saying things as ridiculous as this?

Quote:

You again forget to mention how much time the whole team you apparently don't support even more spends on this project.

don't support TT? if i didn't support TT i wouldn't mind the fact you're crippling its credibility right now.

Quote:

You also prove my point on the cheat community being much more grateful than the normal Renegade community.

actually, your point was completely wrong and always has been. the renegade community is often quite grateful to genuinely good projects, and necessarily, very harsh on destructive pieces of shit like your new ally.

Quote:

Good luck reminding him on UC. You wanted him gone right? Then you can't remind him. That is your flaw.

no flaw at all. i said he should have been banned years ago, and nobody could bring up the "but then he won't help us!" argument then. and i'm sure if we do flame him you'll be there to stick up for him again, in which case he probably won't realise just how much damage he's done.

Quote:

EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 04:58

I dont see where he suggested that YOU killed CW in no way, he said that 0x90 is responsible for it, because server owners used *cheat name removed*

Thank you for your cooperation Spoony. You're always calling people that disagree lairs.

no, i call liars liars. you just lied through your teeth about something that is very easy to check and you got caught straight away. don't try to change the subject.

Quote:

The point I was making was you you, as you do here in perfect honesty, are trying to make me look bad

you started off trying to make me look bad tough guy, unfortunately for you you showed your true colours in the process.

Quote:

while in fact I dare say I did more than 90% of the people here to keep Renegade alive. So thank you, for showing everyone what an asshole you are.

easy tiger, i've done a lot for this game too. never seemed to matter to you, so i don't think you can boast.

Quote:

i don't remember saying you should quit renegade

Quote:

Oh and Nikki, if you're addressing me, then I shall explain why I want the topic locked.
1. It has been discussed many times.

i actually think the subject of what a cunt 0x90 is has not been discussed enough.

Quote:

Spoony now actively engaging because his precious CW.cc is dead, claiming it's just cheats that killed it. (Has anyone noticed there are just generally less players online? Surely that is only because of cheats [/sarcasm])

Again, why are you lying? Anyone can very easily check what I said a few posts ago. What makes you think you won't get caught again?

You said I'm so useless because clanwars is dead (which shows you can't have read the TT private forum for one thing, but never mind that for now). I said yes, it's dead mostly because of undetectable cheats - the biggest reason for its decline, though not the only reason.

Quote:

that's feeble even by your standards.

Quote:

That is the main reason why this thread should've stayed locked. No good can come from it. Spoony will only stop when everyone stops replying or when he got what he wanted, like a little child.

i'll stop when you come to your senses.

Quote:

The, to me, most offensive part is that Spoony totally neglected any reasoning I gave him in private on why we can't have this.

you're either really stupid (again) or lying (again). the 'reasoning' you provided in private is the biggest disgrace of all.

Quote:

That is a real issue when someone is on a team which should work together.

don't presume to lecture me on teamwork, thanks... not after you publicly call for a "bashing" of a fellow TT colleague just to ease the hurt feelings of 0x90.

^^ that is gonna hang over you for a long time, EWD.

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Re: Jus wondering .. [message #428621 is a reply to message #428613]

Mon, 17 May 2010 23:31

EvilWhiteDragon
Messages: 3751
Registered: October 2005
Location: The Netherlands

Karma: 0

General (3 Stars)

Spoony wrote on Tue, 18 May 2010 02:34

EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 18:29

Spoony wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 18:15

Kimb wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 07:00

Let me bring it down to Spoony's level: lollololollo. It's mostly rubbish/ opinion what you write here.

what a sad excuse for a rebuttal.

Quote:

Yeah, right. I got a feeling you're hinting at something? Why would I need 0x90's good side? If you mean something then SAY IT.

hmmm, are you trying to get me to repeat what you said in private?

Quote:

This is the worst I've heard you say about him, and it pales compared to what you've said about me. Thanks for reinforcing my point... you've chosen who you want as an ally.

Quote:

all told, this is one of the most disgraceful things i've ever seen in my involvement with this game, and i must say it came as a surprise that EWD would sink so low.

Opinion, which I obviously do not care about.

Quote:

and like i said, he isn't the only prominent person to think things as ludicrous as this. if EWD is right and most of TT agrees with him, then we really, really have a problem.

Yes of course, we really really have a problem because you know, 0x90 will kill us all on RF. If we not ban him there is no telling what horrors he could do.

Quote:

TT wants to be able to communicate with 0x90, and letting him be here and letting him see what havoc his cheats cause are probably more convincing to stop than banning him.

that's interesting, you're saying we SHOULD be free to tell us what a cunt he is, how much damage he has done? funny, last time i did that you decided to defend him and call for a "spoony bashing"

Quote:

Oh btw, we're on purposely delaying TT so 0x90 can cheat more. That's how evil we are.

do you think you make your argument stronger or weaker by saying things as ridiculous as this?

Quote:

You again forget to mention how much time the whole team you apparently don't support even more spends on this project.

don't support TT? if i didn't support TT i wouldn't mind the fact you're crippling its credibility right now.

Quote:

You also prove my point on the cheat community being much more grateful than the normal Renegade community.

Quote:

Good luck reminding him on UC. You wanted him gone right? Then you can't remind him. That is your flaw.

Quote:

EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 04:58

I dont see where he suggested that YOU killed CW in no way, he said that 0x90 is responsible for it, because server owners used *cheat name removed*

Thank you for your cooperation Spoony. You're always calling people that disagree lairs.

no, i call liars liars. you just lied through your teeth about something that is very easy to check and you got caught straight away. don't try to change the subject.

Quote:

The point I was making was you you, as you do here in perfect honesty, are trying to make me look bad

you started off trying to make me look bad tough guy, unfortunately for you you showed your true colours in the process.

Quote:

while in fact I dare say I did more than 90% of the people here to keep Renegade alive. So thank you, for showing everyone what an asshole you are.

easy tiger, i've done a lot for this game too. never seemed to matter to you, so i don't think you can boast.

Quote:

i don't remember saying you should quit renegade

Quote:

Oh and Nikki, if you're addressing me, then I shall explain why I want the topic locked.
1. It has been discussed many times.

i actually think the subject of what a cunt 0x90 is has not been discussed enough.

Quote:

that's feeble even by your standards.

Quote:

That is the main reason why this thread should've stayed locked. No good can come from it. Spoony will only stop when everyone stops replying or when he got what he wanted, like a little child.

i'll stop when you come to your senses.

Quote:

The, to me, most offensive part is that Spoony totally neglected any reasoning I gave him in private on why we can't have this.

you're either really stupid (again) or lying (again). the 'reasoning' you provided in private is the biggest disgrace of all.

Quote:

That is a real issue when someone is on a team which should work together.

Yes I've chosen who I think is a more trustworthy ally. The one that listens to your arguments. (Hint: it's indeed not you.)
Oh, and on the being useful, I'm sure you used BIATCH more than once. I haven't used CW.cc more than once. On the cheats, CW.cc died because of either mismanagement of just lack of players. Cheaters could be handled with ease, force XWIS, ban on serials, and don't allow known pub cheaters.
That is actually hypocrite, you allowed KNOWN PUBLIC CHEATERS on CW.cc, because they 'only cheated in public servers'. Who supports cheaters.

BlackIntel admin/founder/PR dude (not a coder)
Please visit http://www.blackintel.org/

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Governments should be afraid of their people.

[Updated on: Tue, 18 May 2010 00:44]

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Re: Jus wondering .. [message #428623 is a reply to message #428621]

Mon, 17 May 2010 23:34

Kimb
Messages: 607
Registered: August 2009
Location: There is no greater power...

Karma: 0

Colonel

EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Tue, 18 May 2010 01:31

Spoony wrote on Tue, 18 May 2010 02:34

EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 18:29

Spoony wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 18:15

Kimb wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 07:00

Let me bring it down to Spoony's level: lollololollo. It's mostly rubbish/ opinion what you write here.

what a sad excuse for a rebuttal.

Quote:

Yeah, right. I got a feeling you're hinting at something? Why would I need 0x90's good side? If you mean something then SAY IT.

hmmm, are you trying to get me to repeat what you said in private?

Quote:

This is the worst I've heard you say about him, and it pales compared to what you've said about me. Thanks for reinforcing my point... you've chosen who you want as an ally.

Quote:

all told, this is one of the most disgraceful things i've ever seen in my involvement with this game, and i must say it came as a surprise that EWD would sink so low.

Opinion, which I obviously do not care about.

Quote:

and like i said, he isn't the only prominent person to think things as ludicrous as this. if EWD is right and most of TT agrees with him, then we really, really have a problem.

Yes of course, we really really have a problem because you know, 0x90 will kill us all on RF. If we not ban him there is no telling what horrors he could do.

Quote:

TT wants to be able to communicate with 0x90, and letting him be here and letting him see what havoc his cheats cause are probably more convincing to stop than banning him.

that's interesting, you're saying we SHOULD be free to tell us what a cunt he is, how much damage he has done? funny, last time i did that you decided to defend him and call for a "spoony bashing"

Quote:

Oh btw, we're on purposely delaying TT so 0x90 can cheat more. That's how evil we are.

do you think you make your argument stronger or weaker by saying things as ridiculous as this?

Quote:

You again forget to mention how much time the whole team you apparently don't support even more spends on this project.

don't support TT? if i didn't support TT i wouldn't mind the fact you're crippling its credibility right now.

Quote:

You also prove my point on the cheat community being much more grateful than the normal Renegade community.

Quote:

Good luck reminding him on UC. You wanted him gone right? Then you can't remind him. That is your flaw.

Quote:

EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 04:58

I dont see where he suggested that YOU killed CW in no way, he said that 0x90 is responsible for it, because server owners used *cheat name removed*

Thank you for your cooperation Spoony. You're always calling people that disagree lairs.

no, i call liars liars. you just lied through your teeth about something that is very easy to check and you got caught straight away. don't try to change the subject.

Quote:

The point I was making was you you, as you do here in perfect honesty, are trying to make me look bad

you started off trying to make me look bad tough guy, unfortunately for you you showed your true colours in the process.

Quote:

while in fact I dare say I did more than 90% of the people here to keep Renegade alive. So thank you, for showing everyone what an asshole you are.

easy tiger, i've done a lot for this game too. never seemed to matter to you, so i don't think you can boast.

Quote:

i don't remember saying you should quit renegade

Quote:

Oh and Nikki, if you're addressing me, then I shall explain why I want the topic locked.
1. It has been discussed many times.

i actually think the subject of what a cunt 0x90 is has not been discussed enough.

Quote:

that's feeble even by your standards.

Quote:

That is the main reason why this thread should've stayed locked. No good can come from it. Spoony will only stop when everyone stops replying or when he got what he wanted, like a little child.

i'll stop when you come to your senses.

Quote:

The, to me, most offensive part is that Spoony totally neglected any reasoning I gave him in private on why we can't have this.

you're either really stupid (again) or lying (again). the 'reasoning' you provided in private is the biggest disgrace of all.

Quote:

That is a real issue when someone is on a team which should work together.

Yes I've chosen who I think is a more trustworthy ally. The one that listens to your arguments. (Hint: it's indeed not you.)
don't presume to lecture me on teamwork, thanks... not after you publicly call for a "bashing" of a fellow TT colleague just to ease the hurt feelings of 0x90.

^^ that is gonna hang over you for a long time, EWD.

Anything you wanted to say sir?

What we think, or what we know, or what we believe is, in the end, of little consequence. The only consequence is what we do.

CarrierII wrote on Fri 21 May 2010 06:58

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Re: Jus wondering .. [message #428642 is a reply to message #428621]

Tue, 18 May 2010 05:37

Spoony
Messages: 3915
Registered: January 2006

Karma: 0

General (3 Stars)
Tactics & Strategies Moderator

it's no surprise to see that the rest of my post was, shall we say, untouchable.

EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Tue, 18 May 2010 01:31

Yes I've chosen who I think is a more trustworthy ally. The one that listens to your arguments. (Hint: it's indeed not you.)

there you have it, ladies and gentlemen... EWD thinks 0x90 is "a more trustworthy ally" than spoony is. what more needs to be said about you than that?

i listen to your arguments too, by the way. i listened to them and i'm appalled by them. but "you aren't listening to me" is the kind of dumb thing people who're losing arguments always say. but hey, let's say that wasn't the case, let's say i "wasn't listening to you" despite this thread proving conclusively the opposite. even if that was the case, it would still say all we need to know about you if you thought this made 0x90 more "trustworthy" than me.

Quote:

Oh, and on the being useful, I'm sure you used BIATCH more than once. I haven't used CW.cc more than once.

because you personally aren't interested in clan gaming, and yet the existence of a clan ladder is necessary to the game... in which regard i was the only person to provide one. it's true we used BIATCH but it didn't stop the worst cheats... the worst cheats in competitive play are, by definition, the undetectable ones.

Quote:

On the cheats, CW.cc died because of either mismanagement of just lack of players.

lack of players is due in no small part to the proliferation and undetectability of cheats, if this is still a mystery to you.

Quote:

Cheaters could be handled with ease, force XWIS, ban on serials, and don't allow known pub cheaters.That is actually hypocrite, you allowed KNOWN PUBLIC CHEATERS on CW.cc, because they 'only cheated in public servers'. Who supports cheaters.

firstly, i brought in a few changes to clanwars which took a firm line on "known public cheaters", and the majority of the community thought they were too strict.

secondly, when someone said i should outright ban them (although i think fl00d3d is the only person who ever did say that to me), i'd never dream of openly taking the cheaters' side over his, and i'd never use the horrible argument that the cheating problem they cause would get worse if we did something about it (even though i actually was doing something about it anyway, more so than my predecessors)

thirdly, i would never embarrass myself by sympathising with cheat makers by saying it's the renegade community's fault they act the way they do. you've said that a great many times and it's obvious you don't realise how much damage you do to your credibility when you do.

fourthly, i can absolutely promise you that banning "known public cheaters" would have done nothing to prevent the amount of cheating in clanwars, not the smallest thing. (though i will add that i knew that at the time, but i didn't use it as a reason to defend any of them... it's just a rebuttal to "cheaters could be handled with ease") the cheating that causes problems in clanwars are precisely those that make the users unknown, the type that your new trustworthy ally 0x90 has spent so much time trying to perfect, and says he will continue.

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Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
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[Updated on: Tue, 18 May 2010 05:42]

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Re: Jus wondering .. [message #428646 is a reply to message #427982]

Tue, 18 May 2010 06:24

Hitman
Messages: 878
Registered: November 2005
Location: Belgium

Karma: 0

Colonel

"
You said I'm so useless because clanwars is dead (which shows you can't have read the TT private forum for one thing, but never mind that for now)."

im sensing a comeback here!

hope it works out

ps: and yeah, cw.cc dieing has everything to do with cheaters screwing things up, making entire clans leave the league because they dont want to play in a 'corrupt' league or however u'll name it.

[Updated on: Tue, 18 May 2010 06:25]

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Re: Jus wondering .. [message #428648 is a reply to message #427982]

Tue, 18 May 2010 06:40

Jamie or NuneGa
Messages: 954
Registered: June 2007

Karma: 0

Colonel

I never really cared about cheaters at cw.cc.

Cw.cc's recent death can be drawn back to one event...

the banning of simpee and clear over personal issues.

p.s (this is in no way a push to start that argument).

Another note... 0X90, I have nothing against you being on these forums but change your name... 0X90 is such a shit name, how about Bob or Jamimah.

http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/8789/avilj4.jpg

Jamie is a guys name in Europe...

[Updated on: Tue, 18 May 2010 06:43]

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Re: Jus wondering .. [message #428649 is a reply to message #427982]

Tue, 18 May 2010 06:47

Hitman
Messages: 878
Registered: November 2005
Location: Belgium

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Colonel

i suggest you brace yourself LOL

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Re: Jus wondering .. [message #428651 is a reply to message #428648]

Tue, 18 May 2010 06:58

Kimb
Messages: 607
Registered: August 2009
Location: There is no greater power...

Karma: 0

Colonel

ImJamie wrote on Tue, 18 May 2010 08:40

http://creativeenergyblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/nametag-copy.jpg

yeah, Bob is so much better then 0x90

What we think, or what we know, or what we believe is, in the end, of little consequence. The only consequence is what we do.

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Re: Jus wondering .. [message #428653 is a reply to message #427982]

Tue, 18 May 2010 07:10

Hypnos
Messages: 683
Registered: August 2009
Location: Scotland

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Colonel

All I can do is lol at this thread.

The answer to the initial question can be answered in one word.

It has three letters in it, can you guess what it is?

Caveman wrote on Fri, 21 January 2011 08:26

Well this topic is still going on. I have to say I haven't watched much Anime recently (maybe a year or so) the last thing I saw was GITS (for the third time)

Im not too sure whether I just dont enjoy Anime anymore or whether its just I dont have time really to shit and watch it.

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Re: Jus wondering .. [message #428654 is a reply to message #428648]

Tue, 18 May 2010 07:19

Spoony
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ImJamie wrote on Tue, 18 May 2010 08:40

perhaps you can explain three things. firstly why was there such a lack of players before you finally came to clanwars? secondly why was clanwars dead before i came back to it (and before simpee and clear were banned)? and thirdly, why we should anyone care what you say on the subject of undetectable cheats since, exactly like simpee but to a lesser extent in your case, you would take whatever opportunity for an unfair advantage you thought you could get away with... which is precisely the problem with undetectable cheats in the first place?

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