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Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality [message #428604 is a reply to message #428563] Mon, 17 May 2010 14:20 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Spoony is currently offline  Spoony
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Altzan wrote on Sun, 16 May 2010 21:38

Spoony wrote on Thu, 13 May 2010 08:01

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Spoony wrote on Tue, 11 May 2010 08:32

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You're missing the point. The idea of my statement being fatuous is an opinion, so I naturally pointed out that you spoke of it as a fact.

don't think i did. i think a bigger problem would be talking about religions as if they're facts.

I just read Starbuzzz's post and it's full of crap like this, only it's an "atheists are right" view.
So that kind of talk is only bad when theists use it?

you can talk that way if you like.


You said it's a problem to do it, and now you're OK with me doing it? What's with the change of opinion?

of course i'm ok with you saying stuff that, while it may sound silly, isn't actually harmful.

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Spoony wrote on Thu, 13 May 2010 08:01

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Spoony wrote on Tue, 11 May 2010 08:32

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I feel the same way when someone is converted to Christianity after visiting our church for some time. It's a simple feeling of elation after conversion.

don't act as if the two things are the same.

Excuse me? The basis IS the same: an individual changing what he believes.

there's a world of difference.


In the basic premise? I don't think so.

what was good about starbuzzz's "conversion" (the word doesn't seem right to me but never mind that now) wasn't the fact he stopped being a christian and became an atheist, it was the fact he gained a basic human right that his religion was denying him... freedom of thought.

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Spoony wrote on Thu, 13 May 2010 08:01

nobody told starbuzzz what he must believe. what he believes is not a result of swallowing dogma.


Sure, I agree that. You just argued against what he already believed.
But now, since he's an atheist (I assume - forgive me if I'm wrong), do you say he now has no belief, whatsoever?

depends what you mean by "belief". the usual meaning of the word seems to be something like "accepting a supernatural claim as factually correct without much or any evidence to support it". but if you asked me if i believed in, say, democracy, i'd say yes... the meaning of the word there is more along the lines of advocating a precept.

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Spoony wrote on Thu, 13 May 2010 08:01

secondly, i would never dream of saying he has to agree with me and he'll be punished if he doesn't - i'd be ashamed of myself if i said something so sick.


Then let's hope that 'punishment' truly doesn't exist.

Do you hope that?

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Spoony wrote on Thu, 13 May 2010 08:01

thirdly, it'd be all fine with me if, after breaking free of christianity, he made the free informed choice to follow a different religion.


Thus implying you're more agreeable with religions other than Christianity?

no.

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Spoony wrote on Thu, 13 May 2010 08:01

Give a specific example? (or several if you like)


A few years ago, at a graduation, the valedictorian was giving her speech. At one point, she mentioned God - just a passing comment, something like how she, or th class, were truly blessed to be able to gain their education - and the board presiding cut off her microphone. They were afraid her comment might offend someone who didn't believe in God.

was it a secular school? i wonder what their policy is on this sort of thing.

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Spoony wrote on Thu, 13 May 2010 08:01

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And if the Biblical system is so bad, why are all the examples I've seen so far been OT based?

*cough* hell *cough*


There's one. Any more?

it's a pretty big one on its own. i'd say it's the most cruel idea anybody came up with, and it's done an incalculable amount of psychological damage to humanity.

some of jesus' moral teachings are somewhat ahead of their time (but we're talking about an extremely primitive culture, let's not forget... they're behind the times now), some of them are downright silly, and some of them are harmfully bad (encouraging non-resistance to evil, for example).

as for the idea on how to atone for one's wrongdoings, i think that's done more harm than good too.

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Spoony wrote on Thu, 13 May 2010 08:01

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And when I question these "basic evolutionary history and social processes", I am told to shut up (not by anyone in partuclar - apparently I need to emphasize this).

by who, then?


The guys in our school system who want to teach it to us.

teachers, you mean?

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Spoony wrote on Thu, 13 May 2010 08:01

and are you told that you'll be physically punished for daring to question these concepts?


Not sure about physical, per se. They'd certainly give us a lot of grief about it, saying that it's got so much evidence behind it and has been scientifically accepted and boy, we must be stupid to think it could be wrong.

i'm not understanding how this is grievous

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Starbuzzz wrote

Say you have kids and you raised them christian and one of them becomes atheist after seeing through it when he is like 23. Are you going to let him go [to hell] just like that? What are all the options you think you will have to get him back?

We'd try to talk with him about it, sure. We wouldn't relentlessly bother him until he came back, though.

i think you ought to be relentlessly telling your God not to be such an evil piece of shit.

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Starbuzzz wrote

The "turn your other cheek rule" seriously undermines a human being's right to self-defense, tbh.


What, you think this means not to defend yourself from physical attack? How silly.

that's my understanding of the turn-the-other-cheek teaching too.

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IDOLATER: "A worshiper of idols; one who pays divine honors to images, statues, or representations of anything made by hands".

Is that so offensive? Why?

i don't think the word is offensive, but according to the bible it's probably the one thing above all which drives your god into a murderous, bloodthirsty rage.

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Starbuzzz wrote

It's scary how you are adamant and endorse the "reason" to kill them and say whining about it is not going to "bring them back!"
Do you even have a heart? It's amazing how corrupted you have been turned into without an ounce of mercy.


It's amazing how I'm labeled a heartless, evil, immoral jackass over one single aspect.

i don't know about "evil" or "jackass".

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Starbuzzz wrote

Why should they kill the children? They were babies/toddlers. They could have been adopted and raised in the israeli camp, no?


Can you not see just how badly this would have turned out?

given how barbaric the israelis and their god supposedly were? sure, the babies would probably end up just as brutal. however, this doesn't alter the fact that you appear to've concluded that a scenario can be found where the massacre of innocent children is morally permissible (at least)

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Starbuzzz wrote

Altzan wrote on Thu, 13 May 2010 00:58

I know the difference. And I know that I wasn't given 'shady information'. A lot of it has evidence to back it up and simple makes sense.

How can you just assume that you got the right "information" or you were shown the entire information? You got a selective information just enough to make you believe in christianity. Some get information that is enough to make them believe in hinduism. Some get information that makes them muslim. All claim that it makes sense.


What, you don't think we're taught what the other religions believe and why?

it's not the same. being taught about a religion is absolutely nothing to do with being brought up as a particular religion.

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Starbuzzz wrote

Altzan wrote on Thu, 13 May 2010 00:58

My question was, what makes you so positive that they worshipped nature first?

recorded history? Animism seems to have been rampant among the early humans and still is in many relgiions. And I see it as making sense with the development and evolution of religions over our social history.


Ah, yes. Recorded history. Just ignore the fact that we don't have reliable history dating that far back... and if we did, Christianity would have a much stronger case.

would it? when religions are recent enough that we can look up how they started, they tend to be incredibly feeble fabrications by conmen. (i'm specifically thinking of scientology and LDS/mormonism here)

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Starbuzzz wrote

Altzan wrote on Thu, 13 May 2010 00:58

And you expect me to believe all Christians are the same. Bull.
We don't discriminate like that!

"sinners"
"the evil world"
"ways of the world"
"lost world"
The recent example is homosexuals and atheists. The discrimation is there.


I fail to see your point. We don't think atheists and homosexuals are "scum".

odd, that. like i said, god spent half the old testament trying to make it clear he does.

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Starbuzzz wrote

And like it or not, it's brainwashing by a whole lot. No matter how hard you try to, the solid irrefutable fact remains that you are christian because you were born in America with its majority christian population into a christian family and it would have been different if say you were born in Iran.


Then every single person who is born is brainwashed, no? Even telling a child to not be fooled by all the religions out there is brainwashing in and of itself.

what atheists tend to do (and what we tend to recommend our schools ought to be doing) is encouraging critical thinking. it'd be nice if the ludicrous concept of "faith" was thoroughly discredited too, for the brain-damaging crap it is.

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Starbuzzz wrote

This is just what the average christian thinks atheists are; heartless murderers bent on population planning. How incredibly stupid. Why am I not surprised by you saying this?


Why am I not suprised that you AGAIN took an example LITERALLY? "Oh my!"

I DON'T think all atheists are what you described. It was an EXAMPLE.

And I'm starting to think it flew right over your head.

an example which has nothing to do with atheism at all...

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Starbuzzz wrote

And so when you reject the religion due to its absurdity and become atheist, the very same morons (parents) that brainwashed you in the first place as a kid bully you to "believe"...they denied me intellectual freedom and still are doing so apparently to save my soul!


If that's really how they're doing it... next time they visit, tell them they're doing it wrong.

what's your scriptural basis for saying they're doing it wrong?

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