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Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality [message #428601 is a reply to message #428563] Mon, 17 May 2010 13:06 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Starbuzzz
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Registered: June 2008
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Altzan wrote on Sun, 16 May 2010 23:38

Sure, I agree that. You just argued against what he already believed.
But now, since he's an atheist (I assume - forgive me if I'm wrong), do you say he now has no belief, whatsoever?


Why do christians think atheism is a belief? It's not a "belief" system. There's a huge difference between commonsense and upholding dogma:

dogma: homosexuality is wrong!
commonsense: who gives a fuck? nobody can say what adults can do in their sex lives.

Get it?

Altzan wrote on Sun, 16 May 2010 23:38

In the basic premise? I don't think so.


A good "basic premise" analogy would be like jumping off a ship into the deep sea. You are keen on implying that it's like jumping to another ship. It's not...sorry to disappoint.

If you read the book 1984, read the part especially where that O'Brien bitch is torturing Winston to believe 2+2=5. If O'Brien is a christian and torturing me or Spoony to believe in your religion, we both would have the exact same "intellectual stumblingblock" as Winston did when he was forced to accept 2+2=5.

It's upto you to see that atheism is about free-thinking and not about any absolutes. You believe in indoctrinated absolutes (like commandments, way of life, punishments (lol) and so on) while we don't because there's no reason/evidence to. And your religion pales away anyway when put to historical scrutiny within a historical context.

Altzan wrote on Sun, 16 May 2010 23:38

Spoony wrote on Thu, 13 May 2010 08:01

secondly, i would never dream of saying he has to agree with me and he'll be punished if he doesn't - i'd be ashamed of myself if i said something so sick.


Then let's hope that 'punishment' truly doesn't exist.


It doesn't since your hell is a concept ripped off by the jews from other early Mesopotamian religions.

This statement also serves as a sure indicator that you seem to be motivated and inspired by fear of hell(among other motivations) "stay in the faith" because of these indoctrinated fears of hell. Not surprisisng...

No matter how you want your religion to be true, I am going to bring up something you avoided replying to from my last post:

Starbuzzz wrote on Thu, 13 May 2010 14:57

Secondly, there is no evidence of this system existing with your god at the top, the people on the bottom praying their hearts out while in reality, life remains the same, the sick die, the young die, conquerors and cowards come and go, nations rise and fall, and everyone gets what they worked for in life or being fortunate to be in the right place at the right time, with death, disease, and disasters randomly striking anyone at anytime.


Sorry to be so harsh but despite your belief system and "supernatural protection," we both have about the same chance of losing our lives this week.

My sister's plane (she is a flight attendant) has the same chances of crashing like any other plane despite her prayers before every flight.

That's life...it sucks. A lot. There's absolutely no evidence of anyone running this show. We just have to make sure to not be in thr wrong place at the wrong time and hope nothing goes wrong. Though you certainly have the right to believe in whatever you want if it's comforting to you and makes you feel at ease. Though I will point out why it doesn't make sense if you asked me.

Altzan wrote on Sun, 16 May 2010 23:38

[Thus implying you're more agreeable with religions other than Christianity?


He is saying that if I got on any religious bandwagon now, it would be under my own power and judgment. Not because I was shoved up there when I was a kid by parents.

There's a ton of difference.

You can fool a kid to get into your car by showing candy; though you won't dare try the same with an adult. Religion works the same way. And they do give out candy in sunday school.

Altzan wrote on Sun, 16 May 2010 23:38

A few years ago, at a graduation, the valedictorian was giving her speech. At one point, she mentioned God - just a passing comment, something like how she, or th class, were truly blessed to be able to gain their education - and the board presiding cut off her microphone. They were afraid her comment might offend someone who didn't believe in God.


I read the true story was she veered off from the pre-approved speech and started to preach.

Anyway, I find it hard to believe that a child-killing god of a ancient murderous mediterrean tribe was also resonsible for blessing the education of American school students in 2006. Makes sense. It's all very delusional though I can see it being comforting.

Altzan wrote on Sun, 16 May 2010 23:38

Spoony wrote on Thu, 13 May 2010 08:01

and are you told that you'll be physically punished for daring to question these concepts?


Not sure about physical, per se. They'd certainly give us a lot of grief about it, saying that it's got so much evidence behind it and has been scientifically accepted and boy, we must be stupid to think it could be wrong.


Yeah, causing "grief" and calling christians "stupid" is as bad as us stuck in "eternal screaming roasting in a lake of fire."

I will leave it at that.

Altzan wrote on Sun, 16 May 2010 23:38

I was, for the most part, referring to how you described Christians as "having blindfolds" and "having the truth hidden from them".


I was specifically referring to children with blindfolds. Thought I was clear on that...

Altzan wrote on Sun, 16 May 2010 23:38


Starbuzzz wrote

You already mentioned earlier that not doing anything when government sets fair laws for homosexuals equals you being accomplices in sin!


Did I?


Yes, page 1:

Altzan wrote on Wed, 17 March 2010 22:22

Would I fight against a governemtal decree legally allowing something I consider a sin? Yes, because not doing so would be allowing it, thus being an accomplice to said sin.


What a bullshit excuse to inflitrate into the political process.

Altzan wrote on Sun, 16 May 2010 23:38

Starbuzzz wrote

For someone who directed merciless military campaigns and oversaw systemic genocides, why this change of rule? Why didn't he say this at the start?


He was actively there at the start, that's why.


Doesn't answer the question.

Altzan wrote on Sun, 16 May 2010 23:38

Starbuzzz wrote

The "turn your other cheek rule" seriously undermines a human being's right to self-defense, tbh.


What, you think this means not to defend yourself from physical attack? How silly.


Of course, as expected they teach this crap symbolically on how we should lead our lives. It sets you up as the underdogs.

This is why the bible is so full of contradictions. You are told to love your enemy and turn the other cheek while it also says there's a time for war and a time to kill.

What a screw up.

Altzan wrote on Sun, 16 May 2010 23:38

Starbuzzz wrote

The world and christianity doesn't revolve around a modernized, cleaned up revision of christianity being practiced in a small denomination in Tennessee.
"what isn't is what can break them" lol


Neither does it revolve around these bigger, "come one come all" groups.


Funny how you mentioned the CSI's rallying-call "come one come all" and attempted to use it against me. I didn't even hear of that motto until I looked up that Wikipedia article up for you lol.

What's really ridiculous here is how you are very quick to jump to denominational shitflinging. It's absoulutely pathetic. Then again, I found American christians to put more importance on their denominations than anyone else.

Need I tell you that I have been living in America since I was 13 and attending a baptist church? That's the majority of my life. Denominations weren't stressed at all in India and it didnt matter though catholics were the butt of jokes during evening teatime in the terrace.

Anyway, your religion revolves around the bible. That's enough to trump you all with 1 stone since all your doctrinal differences (which doesn't matter anyway) are derived from it.

Altzan wrote on Sun, 16 May 2010 23:38

Starbuzzz wrote

Anyway, is this a church of christ? May I please ask?


Yes, it is.


Thanks for sharing. That clarifies a lot for everyone who is in this debate. Now that I know which denomiation you are a part of, I understand why you have been brought up without being taught much of the stuff in the OldT.

Anyway, I went to a church of christ too 9 years ago when I was in Nashville. Their rejection of musical instruments (because instruments weren't mentioned in the NewT) shocked me and was something new. I heard there is also a church of christ splinter group that does use musical instruments.

Altzan wrote on Sun, 16 May 2010 23:38

Starbuzzz wrote

I did hear how your culturally advanced denomination rejects the basic idea of god interefering with humanity. And I can see it for what it was; religious revision.


Care to explain how you 'know' it's such?


Christianity is almost "religions among religion" considering how many denominations exist because someone had a different opinion and had the power to create a new church.

You don't even know who is reliable...let alone someone who's country/denomination didn't exist 300 years ago! I am being objective here.

Altzan wrote on Sun, 16 May 2010 23:38

Starbuzzz wrote

So surprised to hear you reject a basic, supposed, historic fact about your religion.


I'm not so sure it is "basic, supposed, and historic".


Denial. I will leave it at that considering I understand your denomination's failure to teach you basic OldT stuff.

Altzan wrote on Sun, 16 May 2010 23:38

Starbuzzz wrote

Altzan wrote on Thu, 13 May 2010 00:58

The religious around here care more about rights than the local atheists.

"around here" , "local"
I understand you are not talking about the whole nation.


I'm sure that the areas like this aren't as small and remote as you'd like me to believe.


Definitely not representative of the whole country.

Altzan wrote on Sun, 16 May 2010 23:38

IDOLATER: "A worshiper of idols; one who pays divine honors to images, statues, or representations of anything made by hands".

Is that so offensive? Why?


A dictionary makes it seems harmless. You only need to see where it's mentioned in the bible. Idolater is mentioned right alongside "murderers" for example like as if it's such a bad thing to do!

And it's an offensive term to use. If you talk to hindus atleast. It's like referring to handicapped people as "cripples."

Altzan wrote on Sun, 16 May 2010 23:38

It's amazing how I'm labeled a heartless, evil, immoral jackass over one single aspect.


"one single aspect" where you defend/justify children being murdered.

Altzan wrote on Sun, 16 May 2010 23:38

Starbuzzz wrote

Why should they kill the children? They were babies/toddlers. They could have been adopted and raised in the israeli camp, no?


Can you not see just how badly this would have turned out?


How so? They would be raised and integrated. Of course, this would never work with the "chosen people" tripe. And so we have to kill them, eh? It's their fault for even being born.

You are very corrupted, man. Nothing justifies killing helpless children. NOTHING.

Then again, I have come to expect this from you christians. I wonder if you guys would go on a killing spree if your god tells you too. I was reading the book of Nahum yesterday and was shocked at the gleefully-revengeful tone in which it describes the children of Nineveh being dashed against the stones. Rocked Over

Altzan wrote on Sun, 16 May 2010 23:38

Starbuzzz wrote

Altzan wrote on Thu, 13 May 2010 00:58

I know the difference. And I know that I wasn't given 'shady information'. A lot of it has evidence to back it up and simple makes sense.

How can you just assume that you got the right "information" or you were shown the entire information? You got a selective information just enough to make you believe in christianity. Some get information that is enough to make them believe in hinduism. Some get information that makes them muslim. All claim that it makes sense.


What, you don't think we're taught what the other religions believe and why?


Read my post again...I quoted it for you. There's a difference between learning about other religions in schools AND getting indoctrinated in one to believe that it is true over the others.

Surely you will admit that you got a biased "information" set in favor of your religion? Were you taken to the worship places of other religions and observed people of different faiths worship? No. But yeah, you were taken to church and you read the bible and such. And guess what? You turned out christian.

In the same vein, I learned about other religions too. Not enough to make me a follower of others religions. Hence my original point of you getting only selective information.

Altzan wrote on Sun, 16 May 2010 23:38

Starbuzzz wrote

And what about when the information you were given didn't exist? What information was the child Alexander [the great] given?


?


Why question mark when the question is so simple? What did the child Alexander learn and what belief systems did he have?

What about the Ötzi iceman? Just another human being we are fortunate enough to have found his body. What information was he given and what beliefs did he have? Is he in your hell too screaming and kickin? lol

I find all religious folks to not see the past that was before their religions came to power. It's all the more ridicluous when they say they are the one true religion ever.

Altzan wrote on Sun, 16 May 2010 23:38

Starbuzzz wrote

You see how "information" keeps changing over generations? That's the steady evolution of religion as new ideas are brought out.


No, I don't, actually.


sucks.

moving on...

Altzan wrote on Sun, 16 May 2010 23:38

Ah, yes. Recorded history. Just ignore the fact that we don't have reliable history dating that far back... and if we did, Christianity would have a much stronger case.


I guess the older they are the more factual they would be. What an absurd thing to say over and over in this debate.

There are several older religions that would be a better bet if you were pulling the seniority law, like you did here.

Better yet is the realization that all these religions didn't exist at one point and have been written by man and so are irrelevant today.

Altzan wrote on Sun, 16 May 2010 23:38

I fail to see your point. We don't think atheists and homosexuals are "scum".


There's no denying christians hold such people in a lesser light.

Altzan wrote on Sun, 16 May 2010 23:38

I understand why people will not believe in Christianity. What I refuse to believe is that it is completely and utterly IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to believe that Christianity could be right.


When you refuse to believe this, you are plainly refusing to see what are all the factors that affects and motivates a person buying into christianity or any other religion. You did turn a blind eye as well when I told you why exactly I can't believe.

I have dealt with evangelists and pastors personally face to face that my parents brought in to try to re-convince me. They could have converted anyone but they can't really fool someone with their usual biblical bag of tricks when they are getting crossquestioned left and right.

The part they start out is when they tell you something along the lines of "we have all sinned with the fall of man in the garden and you have to accept jesus so whosoever believeth in him shall have everlasting life" jeez, they won't shut the f*** up with the original sin bullshit.

The usual conversion tricks and ploys won't work with someone who is actually thinking for themselves.

I know how these ministers roll. It's all about intellectual dishonesty like I described in my first post. They tell you the good parts, cheer you up, then they tell you the problem (you have sinned), hand you the solution (accept a 2000 year old dead man to forgive sin).

So that's your potential christian convert. And many of them buy it. It doesn;t matter to them if it makes sense or not...it's comforting and so if it is comforting, it must be true to them.

Not to mention so many people who are suffering really with so many problems with finances, relationships, crappy jobs or no jobs and who want a instant "solution" or seek comfort/refuge in religious delusion thru prayer (I don't blame them) like as if it will solve their problem.

Altzan wrote on Sun, 16 May 2010 23:38

Then every single person who is born is brainwashed, no? Even telling a child to not be fooled by all the religions out there is brainwashing in and of itself.


This statement is it's own refutation in itself.

Altzan wrote on Sun, 16 May 2010 23:38

Starbuzzz wrote

Oh the audacity of you to turn a blind eye to a billion variables that decided who you were going to be before you were even born and then claim your religion is the right one?! Oh my!


One, I don't. I recognize them quite well.
Two, you sound strange here - maybe you should take a break between large blocks of text and clear your mind a bit before continuing.


If you did, you wont be defending a recent religion to all of us under threat of hell.

As for that ad hominem, atleast dude when you want to pull some insults, then don't make yourself look stupid in the process. At least you could've called me a "atheist mo fo - go to hell!" and I wouldn't have minded it at all!

I guess I need a break from large blocks of texts! C'mon. I have been trying to get another job so I can raise $1200 within the next few weeks to buy a plane ticket to see my dying grandfather in India. He is past his 11th hour; he is critical, fell recently and broke his leg, and I desperately wish to be holding his hands and talking to him.

What else? I got my sister's electric guitar, been to the music store to buy parts for it and have it strung...and am now learning to play it too.

Trust me, replying to posts on forums barely makes a dent on my time.

Altzan wrote on Sun, 16 May 2010 23:38

I DON'T think all atheists are what you described. It was an EXAMPLE.


An example that clearly showed what you think atheists are all about. It's wrong as well. Look up eugenicists and stop making yourself look so clumsy.

Altzan wrote on Sun, 16 May 2010 23:38

Starbuzzz wrote

I will put it to you in very very simple terms since bigger posts apparently don't work. This ain't about factions, churches, and groups like you would love them to be so you can escape from accountability...it's about a religion that doesn't make sense...


Starbuzzz wrote

No matter how hard you try to put the blame on other factions, groups, denominations, the problem (which you never acknowledge) lies deep within your religion and the all important question of basic intellectual freedom of thought it denies under threat of hell.


If it isn't, then you changed the subject. Point - don't try to put ME accountable for something in a belief system that I don't believe in. If you find a Catholic belief stupid or wrong, don't run to me - I don't go with it any more than you do.


I have been from the start of this debate saying how religious indoctrination/and religion challenges our intellecual freedoms. And I still maintain the same.

Your belief system is christianity; anyone from any protestant denomination would have said the same dogma you said all thread.

http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/8746/buzzsigfinal.jpg

[Updated on: Mon, 17 May 2010 21:50]

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