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Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality [message #428220 is a reply to message #428186] Thu, 13 May 2010 12:57 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Starbuzzz
Messages: 1637
Registered: June 2008
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Altzan wrote on Thu, 13 May 2010 00:58

It's easy to make such a claim when you only look at the negative sides.


Which is why the "negative sides" are never told to you and we have to find it for ourselves when we are old enough to think for ourselves. Sad truth about indoctrination.

Altzan wrote on Thu, 13 May 2010 00:58

I just read Starbuzzz's post and it's full of crap like this, only it's an "atheists are right" view.


oh wow. Way to misunderstand. I honestly described how I was going to debate you:

1) you say something first
2) I will state why exactly I don't share that same view
3) you provide clarification further

Here's an example; I asked you where humans learned how to wear clothes. You said it's a "belief thing" and said your god clothed them with animal skins before kicking their butt out of the garden. I then followed it up with why I wasn't sold on that and said something that made sense and also gave examples of people who still don't give much priority to clothing in this world. You didn't follow up to that and I didn't push.

So how dishonest of you to come back and post later I am "full of crap like this" and "atheists are right" view.

I abandoned the theistic position almost a year ago because it was so flawed and untenable This is where the difference between indoctrinated theistic dogma vs thinking for yourself comes in. If you want your religion to be accepted as fact, then asserting, and implying and simply asking to believe is not going to help.

Altzan wrote on Thu, 13 May 2010 00:58

Excuse me? The basis IS the same: an individual changing what he believes.


I didn't "believe" whatever like a new religious convert would do. I found it acceptable because it makes complete sense; a sense that the religious argument still couldn't overcome. You are one who "believes" and has asked us to do so over and over, and when we wanted elementary proof to justify such belief, you called us a "hopeless case" a year ago.

Christianity is big on the "belief without evidence." Then again, all religions are.

Altzan wrote on Thu, 13 May 2010 00:58

Religion doesn't block "intellectual freedom" as much as you claim it does.


Say you have kids and you raised them christian and one of them becomes atheist after seeing through it when he is like 23. Are you going to let him go [to hell] just like that? What are all the options you think you will have to get him back?

You already mentioned earlier that not doing anything when government sets fair laws for homosexuals equals you being accomplices in sin!

Or would you value your child's decision to think freely?

Altzan wrote on Thu, 13 May 2010 00:58

Sorry. I thought I'd seen that in his posts, although it was a while back and I should have checked.
What did they call themselves, then?


They called themselves christians (not joking). Denominational divides are not stressed at all in India as they are in America due to there being only 2 denominations.

Anyway if you are curious;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_South_India

In India, there are christians, hindus, and catholics and they are known/referred to as such.

Altzan wrote on Thu, 13 May 2010 00:58

NT explicitly states that we should be friendly with everyone, NOT make enemies with them.


And why? god is jesus and jesus is god (the eternal Word)...holy trinity for all the sense that makes.

For someone who directed merciless military campaigns and oversaw systemic genocides, why this change of rule? Why didn't he say this at the start?

The "turn your other cheek rule" seriously undermines a human being's right to self-defense, tbh.

Altzan wrote on Thu, 13 May 2010 00:58

Starbuzzz wrote on Tue, 11 May 2010 16:44

So far you have said that god is not interefering in the world; stepping on a cornerstone dogma for billions of christians around the world. Your claims equal that of saying the majority of christians around the world are wrong about pretty much everything.
...No, they don't. They have a lot of it right, but what isn't is what can break them.


The world and christianity doesn't revolve around a modernized, cleaned up revision of christianity being practiced in a small denomination in Tennessee.

"what isn't is what can break them" lol

Altzan wrote on Thu, 13 May 2010 00:58

We don't ingore him. He's a frequent topic.


"We" meaning your church? Anyway, is this a church of christ? May I please ask?

Anyway, this is my 10th year in America and I have gone to a couple hundred different churches across many denominations (thanks to having religious zealots as parents). I also lived 3 months in Nashville, Tennesse 9 years ago and went to church there.

I have yet to go to an American church where the sermon even mentioned anything about the devil and his horrible mischief to trick us all.

Altzan wrote on Thu, 13 May 2010 00:58

[I can't understand a shady reference to theological seminars about an idea you supposedly heard first from me.


I heard the angels stuff from you. Everything else is not at all biblical. These theistic theological theorists come up with a lot of stuff to answer away their questions.

Altzan wrote on Thu, 13 May 2010 00:58

Starbuzzz wrote on Tue, 11 May 2010 16:44

This isn't a church vs church battle. It's christianity's core dogma vs revised modernised dogma. There's a huge difference.
If jesus were here, he wouldn't want to be associated with most christians except, say the Amish.

[I'm pointing out that I'm not the only one bringing a point or two that is totally new to the other side.


I didn't learn anything new from you, tbh. I did hear how your culturally advanced denomination rejects the basic idea of god interefering with humanity. And I can see it for what it was; religious revision.

And in the same vein, you didn't learn anything new from me. Atleast not something they should have told you about anyway.

Altzan wrote on Thu, 13 May 2010 00:58

If it doesn't matter what I trace it to, it doesn't matter where those mag guys trace it. I don't have to shove myself into a majority.


So surprised to hear you reject a basic, supposed, historic fact about your religion.

anyway, mate...you can trace it to adam just as I can [if I feel mischiveous] trace it to the annunaki from planet nibiru. It's your belief.

Altzan wrote on Thu, 13 May 2010 00:58

The religious around here care more about rights than the local atheists.


"around here" , "local"

I understand you are not talking about the whole nation.

Altzan wrote on Thu, 13 May 2010 00:58

Starbuzzz wrote on Tue, 11 May 2010 16:44

Altzan wrote on Tue, 04 May 2010 22:26

Starbuzzz wrote on Mon, 03 May 2010 15:44

do you imply that reincarnation is true but we aren't in a position to have "examined and studied" it?

I imply that, while I don't believe in it, I don't have concrete proof that it is false.

Why the need for formalities and political correctness? It would be much easier if you just said it's man-made falsehood.


Easier if I lied, then? No.


I didn't believe you because when I read what you said, it seemed to greatly contradict with what you said on page 3:

Altzan wrote on Tue, 30 March 2010 22:43

And no, I don't believe there were other gods, although those idolators apparently did.


When you refer to the faithful confident worshippers of another religion with a biblical and offensive smear word such as "idolators," I kinda thought how likely was it for you to be open to the concept of [reincarnation] that is believed by the world's sole remaining "idol-worshipping" religion.

Altzan wrote on Thu, 13 May 2010 00:58

Yeah, it's pretty funny how I seem to say the common and accepted beliefs of a Christian...


You will learn what they tell you; I only pointed this out.

Altzan wrote on Thu, 13 May 2010 00:58

Altzan wrote on Thu, 13 May 2010 00:58

quote title=Starbuzzz wrote on Tue, 11 May 2010 16:44]Infact you have been so morally corrupted that you justify the murders of the children commited by the exodus gang and then so shockingly excuse that by saying "BUT THEY ARE IN HEAVEN." I guess them losing their lives in gruesome murders and the terrible agony and grief of their parents before the slaughter doesn't matter to you.


Bad guess. But going against the method or reason won't bring them back.
And, as I said, I'm not sure keeping them alive would be any less scarring, not that it justifies the act.


It's scary how you are adamant and endorse the "reason" to kill them and say whining about it is not going to "bring them back!"

Do you even have a heart? It's amazing how corrupted you have been turned into without an ounce of mercy.

"I'm not sure keeping them alive would be any less scarring"

seriously, what the f***?

Why should they kill the children? They were babies/toddlers. They could have been adopted and raised in the israeli camp, no? Did that ever strike your mind? So why didn't your loving god do just that? I guess they were gentiles and not the chosen people and hence an abomination? Or I guess, like you already stated in the first few pages of this thread, you god is the dictator and we should never question him no matter what he does.

This is so pathetic. When I was told the truth of these genocides, I had enough moral juice left to condemn them...not defend them.

btw, 2 or 3 tribes they encountered did this pracice. 90% of the other tribes destroyed were just unique people worshipping their own religion and minding their own damn business before the butchers showed up. And such massacres didn't just stop with the exodus land grab. It also happened much later after the early israelis establish themselves.

Altzan wrote on Thu, 13 May 2010 00:58

Is it a simple assumption, then, that no matter how well a system is designed, there will be people who want no part of it, and deserve rights?


Firstly, the idea of this "system" ever existing is formulated and conditioned by childhood brainwashing.

Secondly, there is no evidence of this system existing with your god at the top, the people on the bottom praying their hearts out while in reality, life remains the same, the sick die, the young die, conquerors and cowards come and go, nations rise and fall, and everyone gets what they worked for in life or being fortunate to be in the right place at the right time, with death, disease, and disasters randomly striking anyone at anytime.

All signs of a pessismistic world that goes on and on in a cycle till resources are depleted. Hence my orangey text in a previous post.

As far as your question, if you system was fair to all, nobody would complain. It isn't.

For example, a Muslim baby will go to hell after it's all grown up because it had the "bad fortune" of being born into a Muslim family who would then go on to give "information" that will determine the child's belief system. What a dumb unfair system!

Altzan wrote on Thu, 13 May 2010 00:58

I know the difference. And I know that I wasn't given 'shady information'. A lot of it has evidence to back it up and simple makes sense.


How can you just assume that you got the right "information" or you were shown the entire information? You got a selective information just enough to make you believe in christianity. Some get information that is enough to make them believe in hinduism. Some get information that makes them muslim. All claim that it makes sense.

And what about when the information you were given didn't exist? What information was the child Alexander [the great] given? You see how "information" keeps changing over generations? That's the steady evolution of religion as new ideas are brought out.

When you realize the bigger picture is when you try to seek out the other information by yourself. Anyway, I will stop there as that's seems to be top-end of belief systems.

Altzan wrote on Thu, 13 May 2010 00:58

And when I question these "basic evolutionary history and social processes", I am told to shut up


I fail to see in this thread where you asked and someone actually said that.

Altzan wrote on Thu, 13 May 2010 00:58

My question was, what makes you so positive that they worshipped nature first?


recorded history? Animism seems to have been rampant among the early humans and still is in many relgiions. And I see it as making sense with the development and evolution of religions over our social history.

Altzan wrote on Thu, 13 May 2010 00:58

With the expansion of technology and science, it's not that surprising, is it?


Partly true, there's no "if" about the general ignorance of early human tribals. It wasn't after the migrations stopped and the great civilizations rose up in the fertile river zones (in Egypt, Mesopotamia, and Indus) that our quest to discover ourselves seems to have earnestly began.

We seem be in an age where reason is finally, despite organized religions' effort to crush it, making a strong comeback to stay. This debate should have happened almost 500 years ago but your religion was too powerful then and instead was ordering around poor Galileo to recant his heliocentric view.

Altzan wrote on Thu, 13 May 2010 00:58

And you expect me to believe all Christians are the same. Bull.
We don't discriminate like that!


"sinners"
"the evil world"
"ways of the world"
"lost world"

The recent example is homosexuals and atheists. The discrimation is there.

Altzan wrote on Thu, 13 May 2010 00:58

Because when I refuse to bang my head on the already established "I cannot possibly believe this because it doesn't tie up with basic history, contradictory, immoral, with zero evidence to back it up and requiring "faith" and "belief" to convince ourself under threat of hell" brick wall, it's me just refusing to look at the facts.


Fixed. I am trying to get this thru to you.

Altzan wrote on Thu, 13 May 2010 00:58

And I spend time here because it's interesting and relevant.


jeez, "interesting" and "relevant" is not something I would associate with "useless." Anyway...I guess we all like this debate!

Altzan wrote on Thu, 13 May 2010 00:58

If your big thing here is simply brainwashing... do you mostly ridicule Christianity because that's the subject you purged yourself from?


I spent time reasoning with you as to why I don't believe. The "big thing" here is if your beliefs are true or not, and how they are true, how they take precendence over other religions and, if the potential they have to influence ones' life is justified or not. We are past the point of just following and are asking "is there any substance to this?" when there are billions of people who would unfairly go to hell just for being born in the wrong country/religion/family.

And like it or not, it's brainwashing by a whole lot. No matter how hard you try to, the solid irrefutable fact remains that you are christian because you were born in America with its majority christian population into a christian family and it would have been different if say you were born in Iran. Oh the audacity of you to turn a blind eye to a billion variables that decided who you were going to be before you were even born and then claim your religion is the right one?! Oh my!

Same for me, I was born into a christian family in India because, ready for this? Without christian European missionaries in India, I would have been born into an entirely hindu family! So when I would have asked my grandmother the question, "do birds have souls?" she would have replied, "yes, dear"...and I honestly fear if that would have been the end of my childhood curiosity.

It's allright to close your eyes to these basic things and think everyone else except you would go to hell. It certainly is your right. I will move on and leave you to your beliefs.

Altzan wrote on Thu, 13 May 2010 00:58

Fine. I'll go on a mudering spree and kill everyone even remotely religious, saying that they're poisioning our civilization and ruining our gene pool, and that I'm purifying the human race.

Oh, and I'll mention how I'm an atheist.

And you can't say that he's not a true atheist to cover yourselves, because that's just "pulling a fast one".


This is just what the average christian thinks atheists are; heartless murderers bent on population planning. How incredibly stupid. Why am I not surprised by you saying this?

I will tell you the right term to use to decribe such people like you did: eugenists.

Altzan wrote on Thu, 13 May 2010 00:58

Your Hindu friend, for example. If there happened to be a faction who have the core beliefs of Hindu's, but also believed that violence is both permitted and required for spreading the religion, you're basically saying that your Hindu friend cannot claim she isn't a part of it in some way.


I will put it to you in very very simple terms since bigger posts apparently don't work. This ain't about factions, churches, and groups like you would love them to be so you can escape from accountability...it's about a religion that doesn't make sense...atleast when I learned to think for myself. And so when you reject the religion due to its absurdity and become atheist, the very same morons (parents) that brainwashed you in the first place as a kid bully you to "believe"...they denied me intellectual freedom and still are doing so apparently to save my soul!

I am leading a double life (like millions of others) because people like you are in the majority and have undeserved power of influence; and we are only now slowly coming out as the fastest growing group as well.

Do you understand this simple simple concept? Or should I make it simpler still for you? It doesn't matter which nationality you are or which denomination or church or which revised dogma you preach and uphold, thousands of idiotic parents across the whole world react the same way when their kid "strays"...even American parents.

No matter how hard you try to put the blame on other factions, groups, denominations, the problem (which you never acknowledge) lies deep within your religion and the all important question of basic intellectual freedom of thought it denies under threat of hell.

edit: typo
edit2: slight correction/revisions

http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/8746/buzzsigfinal.jpg

[Updated on: Thu, 13 May 2010 21:54]

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