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Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality [message #422818 is a reply to message #422816] Sat, 20 March 2010 00:22 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Spoony is currently offline  Spoony
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Altzan wrote on Sat, 20 March 2010 00:39

Spoony wrote on Fri, 19 March 2010 22:46

firstly, the old testament is no longer in effect, is it? well, jesus said that every jot and tittle of the old laws must be carried out.


No. Otherwise we'd still be doing sacrifices and basically operating under Moses' statutes.
Not every single law in the OT is supposed to be disregarded, but certainly not all of it is still applicable.

So you're deciding which ones are not applicable now? How do you decide that? And how do you reconcile that with Deuteronomy 13:1;
Whatever I am now commanding you, you must keep and observe, adding nothing to it, taking nothing away.

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They called for it to be on their heads, huh? So why does that make it the Bible's fault for relaying that information? I don't recall any passage demanding anti-semitism to be carried out - sounds more like man's stupid actions.

Because the Bible is absolutely full of cases where innocent people are punished for the crimes committed by others. If you don't object to these, saying that the bible is a source of morals, and if you're further told that all Jews are guilty of the murder of Jesus...

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I'm not against legit scientific progress, myself.
So far, all the scientific theories that contradict the Bible have no more evidence than it does.

lol... where's the evidence supporting every assertion made by the bible, please?

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As soon as you quote it. All you've said so far is that God destoryed SOME cities... not every single one they came across.

eh? do you even know what i was talking about? anyone who's read the bible carefully will know which one i mean. along the lines of "if you hear of a town where there are people therein who worship a different god, you must put the entire town to the sword".

this is not a case of "god destroying SOME cities"... it's a moral commandment in your holy book.

and that's by no means the only example of genocide mentioned in the bible. the slaughter of the egyptian firstborn, sodom and gomorrah, the israelites (numerous occasions), noah's ark...

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No... I wouldn't be doing them a favor at all. As I said before, If you don't want to believe after I've given my case, I won't persist.

so you're quite content to allow others to go to hell, when you could save them?

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Thank God I don't belong to that Vatican/Catholic splinter-group.

they're the splinter group, are they?

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I can't tell you - I don't know either, myself. Were they saying condoms were bad and shouldn't be used?

they outright lie about the properties of condoms, saying they not only don't help prevent aids (of course they help) but actually can increase the chances of aids. not only that, but they declare that aids are sinful.

when millions of people are dying in africa every year and we could easily prevent this through a simple campaign of education, just how evil do you have to be to effectively collaborate with the virus?

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Most of your above quotes signify events caused by - as you label them - Christianity in general or specific denominations. My denomination doesn't believe in this stuff:
Anti-semitism - I see no reason to persecute a race for one historical act.

Your god seems to. Like I said, there are plenty of occasions in the bible where he innocent people are punished for the crimes of others. This is no surprise to me, nor does it present a problem for atheists, of course - it was written at a time when humanity's grasp of morality was pretty feeble, so no wonder it's such a shitty source of morals.

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Forced acceptance of religion - No. I DO NOT support that at all.

but you can't deny the logic that if someone genuinely did believe in heaven and hell, it would make perfect sense to convert people by force if necessary, and they would be doing their victims the highest of favours.

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Fascism - Nope, don't care for that either.

cool, but you don't seem to mind dictatorships per se.

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I'm not defending every denomination, just my own and that which is common to all of them. I'm not trying to disregard these events you describe - I'm trying to say that we're just as against their happening as you are.

You're not just as against the slaughter of innocent children...

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Spoony wrote on Fri, 19 March 2010 22:46

So it's not faith at all, then, is it? It's just you're considering things to be evidence when they're either dubious or outright untrue.


How'd you come to that conclusion?

you said it's based on evidence (giving extremely shaky examples) and then basically said "faith" is required to fill in the gaps. how hopeful you must be that you've filled in the gaps correctly...

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Spoony wrote on Fri, 19 March 2010 22:46

the gospels themselves were written decades after the crucifixion is supposed to have happened, and i'd like you to tell me exactly who by, please, and how they knew what to write, and why they contradict each other so often.


1. Each book in the Bible states who wrote it near the beginning or end.

"exactly who"
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2. God inspired them to write what they did. They didn't write it by their own intuition alone.

How do you know that, and how do you know this was not the case for the numerous gospels that were rejected from your bible because a group of politicians decided they should be rejected?
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3. Why the gospels contradict? Why four seperate people's own written logs of 30 years do not perfectly match up?

Not even vaguely, in some cases.

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Spoony wrote on Fri, 19 March 2010 22:46

and they aren't even all the gospels. quite a lot more than just the new testament four existed... it was a council of men, politicians, who decided which bits went into the bible, and this was centuries after the time jesus was supposed to have lived.


Where'd you learn that from?

Council of Nicaea, quite common knowledge... perhaps you could explain from where you "learned" that the bible was compiled "very soon after jesus' death"?

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Spoony wrote on Fri, 19 March 2010 22:46

Firstly how do you know? All you have is an account supposedly written by their slaughterers.


The same account that says there were slaughters int he first place?
If you can say "God did this" and point to a Bible scripture, I can do the same.

Yes, you can point at a scripture. Then the next step would be to demonstrate its truth.

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Spoony wrote on Fri, 19 March 2010 22:46

Secondly, do you quarrel with the idea of sacrificing a child to your god? The bible appears to be in favour of that. Or is it only if it's the right god?


Since when is the Bible in favor of it? Only mention I know of is the test that was given to Abram.

And the general who asked for victory and in return he'd sacrifice whatever he saw when he got home, which turned out to be his daughter.

And numerous commands to the israelites.

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Hell existed regardless. There's no seperate place for OT-based people to go. They also had a different set of laws to live under.

You didn't answer the question. If Hell was there, why didn't god say anything about it in the old testament? He's very keen on making creatively vicious threats to back up his commandments, so if he's got this fiery torture chamber you'll go to if you aren't careful, why not mention it?

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Spoony wrote on Fri, 19 March 2010 22:46

There's no small print about human sacrifice in the instructions for genocide on religious grounds. So that just leaves: "the only other option is to let all the people live and continue their false worship, and we can't have that". Oh dear. Bit of a departure from your position on the previous page.


My position? I thought we were discussing what God did and why.
Also, what are you trying to say here - that they didn't do sacrifices?

You're justifying the murder of innocent children. I think it's up to you to prove their adults carried out sacrifices, and then explain why punishing innocent children is justified even if their parents are criminals.

Spoony wrote on Fri, 19 March 2010 22:46

I have yet to see parents raise a child, be subject too all of his/her complaints/disobedience/rudeness/etc, and not punish the child in any way.

How is that an analogy?

This god of yours gives us no reason at all to think he exists, and his followers tell us we're rude for asking for evidence (you said "hopeless case", remember) and then we're told we'll suffer horrific punishments if we have doubts. You doubt some religious claims too, remember... basically all the ones except your own version of Christianity, so you know what it's like not to believe somebody's religion.

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Man was given a paradise with only one rule to obey... one rule. And he broke it.

i assume you're talking about adam and eve. even if that was true, what's that got to do with anyone other than adam and eve?

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It's all gone downhill from there, what with those taken under God's care constantly complaining and demanding more.

complaining?

your bible is full of genocide, slavery, the punishment of innocents... and you're condemning complaining? as for "demanding more", i wouldn't ask for anything from a character i thought was fictional.

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Or would you rather God not make any rules at all and let humans do as we please, and abolish Heaven and Hell?

yes, because his rules are absolutely shit. like i said, this is only to be expected... the men who wrote the bible did so two thousand years ago, and their moral standards were pretty crappy by today's standards.

yes, i do want religion to let humans do as we please, some of us do actually like the idea of democracy.

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Or the greatest paradise. It all depends on how you look at it, and what facts you bring forth and what facts you bury.

Facts?

When are they going to turn up?

As for whether i like it or not, this is essentially based upon the depiction of your god in the bible... a cruel, merciless, unjust, bloodthirsty tyrant. it probably does depend how you look at it... if you like freedom and democracy and morality, it sucks. if you don't care about those, you might think it's paradise.

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I also see the implication that the possibility of any being having greater stature than man is horrible to consider.

No, it's not.

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There are Bible statements that consist with Astronomy, Paleontology, Meteorology, Biology, Anthropology, Hydrology, Geology, and Physics. Also with Prophecy, Textual Evidence, and Historians.

So yeah, there's evidence.

Go on?

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Yes, because they shouldn't impose their rules on non-belivers. Standing up for what you think is right is one thing, but trying to force someone else to think your way is another.

And yet you defend the threatened punishment for thinking the wrong way.

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"Get the answer book out of my face and let me solve it myself."

Huh?

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Why are we born with that caring attitude? Or are you still trying to figure that out as well?

I wouldn't necessarily say we were born with it, but the concept of human solidarity, of caring for one's family, has certainly helped us last this long.

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