Home » General Discussions » Heated Discussions and Debates » Which Society do you pick?
| Which Society do you pick? [message #418811] |
Fri, 29 January 2010 14:27  |
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The Party
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So I have something that I would like to ask everyone, which is better: A society based on free will or A society based on the goverment limiting the power of the people. (For better or for worse) Also in which ever case you pick where do we draw the line?
War is Peace.
Ignorance is Strength.
Freedom is Slavery.
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| Re: Which Society do you pick? [message #418874 is a reply to message #418815] |
Sat, 30 January 2010 10:31  |
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Spoony
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| GEORGE ZIMMER wrote on Fri, 29 January 2010 16:22 |
Free will. We draw the line when it outright infringes on another person's ability to live (IE: killing them), and a few other universally accepted moral wrongdoings (rape, etc).
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there are surprisingly few "universally accepted" moral wrongdoings. you cite rape as the prime example... look at saudi arabia, pakistan, iran, or the catholic church.
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| Re: Which Society do you pick? [message #418882 is a reply to message #418874] |
Sat, 30 January 2010 12:56 |
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GEORGE ZIMMER
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| EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Sat, 30 January 2010 06:10 |
Problem here is: Who defines what is morally acceptable? Perhaps I have absolutely no problems with say abortion while others are against, who will decide whether it is right/wrong?
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I said universally. In the majority of the world, rape is considered wrong. So is mindless killing, torture, etc.
| Spoony wrote on Sat, 30 January 2010 12:31 |
there are surprisingly few "universally accepted" moral wrongdoings. you cite rape as the prime example... look at saudi arabia, pakistan, iran, or the catholic church.
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Even those places do look down upon rape in general. There might be situations where a Priest molests a child or a group of Muslims in Saudi Arabia rape a woman and such, but just the same can be said for any area really- you still have your gang bangers here in the US and etc.
That doesn't mean it shouldn't be looked down upon still.
Toggle Spoiler| Scrin wrote on Sat, 24 January 2009 13:22 |
| cAmpa wrote on Sat, 24 January 2009 12:45 |
Scrin, stop pming people to get the building bars.
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FUCK YOU AND THIS SHIT GAME WITH YOUR SCRIPTS!!! I HAVE ASKING YOU AND ANOTHER NOOBS HERE ABOUT HELP WITH THAT BUILDING ICONS FEATURES FOR YEARS, BUT YOU KEEP IGNORING ME AND KEEP WRITE SHIT, SO BURN YOU AND YOUR ASSLICKERS FRIENDS, THIS TIME I'M NOT COME BACK!!!!!!!!!   
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| Re: Which Society do you pick? [message #418885 is a reply to message #418882] |
Sat, 30 January 2010 13:20 |
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Spoony
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| GEORGE ZIMMER wrote on Sat, 30 January 2010 13:56 |
Even those places do look down upon rape in general. There might be situations where a Priest molests a child or a group of Muslims in Saudi Arabia rape a woman and such, but just the same can be said for any area really- you still have your gang bangers here in the US and etc.
That doesn't mean it shouldn't be looked down upon still.
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"there might be situations"?
in iran and pakistan, rape is a legally sanctioned punishment.
in iran, if a woman commits a capital offence, but she's a virgin, she can't be given the death penalty according to islamic law. (i'm not exactly sure why, but my guess would be it's because she might end up going to paradise... the only mention of women in the muslim version of heaven is the 72 virgins, and that is probably viewed as too good for a woman who commits a capital offence in iran). so how does the iranian regime get around this? simple. the revolutionary guard rape her in prison, then kill her the next day.
in saudi arabia it's not exactly as bad as that, but if you're a woman and you don't dress up like a tent, you'll almost certainly be raped and the men who do it to you almost certainly will get away with it.
so rape's frowned upon everywhere, is it? no, not in cultures where -a- people are brainwashed to think women are cattle, and -b- everyone is sexually repressed. i.e. islam. this is a lethal combination.
in the catholic church, there is a conspiracy of silence to protect priests accused of child rape from justice... set up by... joseph ratzinger, the current pope. he himself was chosen pope by a conclave that included a man who was a fugitive from american justice for complicity and coverup of child rape in boston... people whine about halliburton and blackwater, but as companies go they don't come much more evil than the catholic church. this isn't even the worst it does... it spreads aids in africa then has the nerve to call itself pro-life.
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
- noun
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| Re: Which Society do you pick? [message #418897 is a reply to message #418816] |
Sat, 30 January 2010 20:01 |
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The Party
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I think a society that is controlled by the goverment is the best, because with more law and order then we may actually have a chance at living peacefully. I also think that there is no line to be drawn, so that the goverment could turn us all into machines and cyborgs then that would be fine with me.
I guess this make me nilisitc.
War is Peace.
Ignorance is Strength.
Freedom is Slavery.
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| Re: Which Society do you pick? [message #418905 is a reply to message #418811] |
Sat, 30 January 2010 21:25 |
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R315r4z0r
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Which ever of which one you choose, you end up with the same result.
Both choices are the same thing. Regardless of how any one of you would or believe you would act, people as a whole are afraid to live freely.
True freedom is not the sort of freedom that you probably seek. The kind of freedom people talk about having is the freedom to act their own way WITHIN proposed limitations. (You also had a poor choice of words for the question; the very idea of having a 'society' contradicts the ideal of freedom. You cannot have a freedom based society because the very idea of organizing a society restricts the bounds of freedom.)
Believe it or not, people WANT to be limited. They need limitations. Without limitations, there is no point in living. People panic as there is nothing to work for, nothing to achieve.
Basically, in the end, if you give everyone freedom, they will eventually organize themselves a government that constricts limitations. And since no one has their perfections and emotions are unequally distributed between everyone, corruption would eventually overtake that government and we would be put right back where we started.
[Updated on: Sat, 30 January 2010 21:27] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Which Society do you pick? [message #418908 is a reply to message #418811] |
Sat, 30 January 2010 21:56 |
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Dover
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This thread is retarded. Why do people insist on seeing "the government" as something to be contended with?
| DarkDemin wrote on Thu, 03 August 2006 19:19 |
Remember kids the internet is serious business.
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| Re: Which Society do you pick? [message #418909 is a reply to message #418811] |
Sat, 30 January 2010 22:20 |
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NukeIt15
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| Quote: |
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it...
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This.
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Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government...
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Also this.
The more power you hand to a government, the more power it will ask for. No government in recorded history has ever voluntarily handed back to its people any power granted to it, even those which that government and nation's founding ideals should have forbidden. The more unwieldy a government becomes, the more resources it will require to sustain itself... and will grant itself broader powers to secure those resources (and no, I am not talking about oil. I mean manpower, taxes, freedom of speech and the restriction thereof, etc). Once taken away from the people, the only way those powers can be removed from the government again is through a popular revolt of some shape or form (hopefully nonviolent). Government will never voluntarily restrain itself beyond the dawning moments of its existence because it can never be guaranteed that every person serving that government who wields power will be as noble in his ideals as the first man to hold the same post.
That is why "the Man" is not your friend. If, and only if a government could be held accountable to the ideals which founded it, then it could be trusted. History has yet to record a single example of that happening; every known form of government experiences the same inevitable decay into excess and corruption. Some of them just haven't quite gotten bad enough to change yet.
"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. Horrid mischief would ensue were (the law-abiding) deprived of the use of them." - Thomas Paine
Remember, kids: illiteracy is cool. If you took the time to read this, you are clearly a loser who will never get laid. You've been warned.
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| Re: Which Society do you pick? [message #418914 is a reply to message #418913] |
Sat, 30 January 2010 23:40 |
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Dover
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| Chew wrote on Sat, 30 January 2010 22:17 |
Because people don't like the idea that they pay the ridiculously huge salaries
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You're the only person I've ever heard complaining about the salary of government officials. Nobody gets into public service to get rich.
Consider for a minute that the president, the highest paid public servant makes 400k a year. That sounds like a lot, but most middle class families make at least 1/4 of that, and that a 400k salary for supposedly the most powerful person in the world wouldn't even be in the top 1%. That means there are millions of privite citizens with less responsibilities that are paid much more.
And that's not even considering that that's just the president, and that average Senator is paid closer to 100-150k.
| Chew wrote on Sat, 30 January 2010 22:17 |
of a bunch of assholes that get to make
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Somebody has to do it. Any your legislators are directly accountable to you. So in a roundabout way, it's YOU making the laws.
| Chew wrote on Sat, 30 January 2010 22:17 |
and break the laws...
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When this happens, they get fired and publicly shamed. See Rob Blaggo.
| Chew wrote on Sat, 30 January 2010 22:17 |
also that most of the time the laws they make don't necessarly effect them like they do the average hard working person, so they don't much give a shit.
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But it does, and they do. Them keeping their job depends on it.
| Chew wrote on Sat, 30 January 2010 22:17 |
They make promises about lower taxes and better health care or whatever else the hot topic of the day is... but they hardly ever make good on them, most of the time they actually go against what they promise.
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You have your precious founding fathers to thank for that. Your government is designed to resist change, so actually getting anything done is a long, painful, and difficult process.
| Chew wrote on Sat, 30 January 2010 22:17 |
Simply put... we pay them, they screw us, and not like a hooker.
Anymore dumb questions?
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This is probably a dumb question since I know the answer is no; Do you have a GOOD reason?
| DarkDemin wrote on Thu, 03 August 2006 19:19 |
Remember kids the internet is serious business.
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| Re: Which Society do you pick? [message #418923 is a reply to message #418919] |
Sun, 31 January 2010 02:12 |
Sean
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| Starbuzzz wrote on Sun, 31 January 2010 01:55 |
@R3:
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true freedom is when a human being does everything without restraint and consequences.
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do you agree with this statement?
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Who in their right frame of mind would.
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| Re: Which Society do you pick? [message #418926 is a reply to message #418909] |
Sun, 31 January 2010 02:36 |
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Herr Surth
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| NukeIt15 wrote on Sat, 30 January 2010 23:20 |
| Quote: |
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it...
|
This.
| Quote: |
Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government...
|
Also this.
The more power you hand to a government, the more power it will ask for. No government in recorded history has ever voluntarily handed back to its people any power granted to it, even those which that government and nation's founding ideals should have forbidden. The more unwieldy a government becomes, the more resources it will require to sustain itself... and will grant itself broader powers to secure those resources (and no, I am not talking about oil. I mean manpower, taxes, freedom of speech and the restriction thereof, etc). Once taken away from the people, the only way those powers can be removed from the government again is through a popular revolt of some shape or form (hopefully nonviolent). Government will never voluntarily restrain itself beyond the dawning moments of its existence because it can never be guaranteed that every person serving that government who wields power will be as noble in his ideals as the first man to hold the same post.
That is why "the Man" is not your friend. If, and only if a government could be held accountable to the ideals which founded it, then it could be trusted. History has yet to record a single example of that happening; every known form of government experiences the same inevitable decay into excess and corruption. Some of them just haven't quite gotten bad enough to change yet.
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libertarians always crack me up.
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| Re: Which Society do you pick? [message #418976 is a reply to message #418919] |
Sun, 31 January 2010 19:21 |
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R315r4z0r
Messages: 3836
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Location: New York
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General (3 Stars) |
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| Starbuzzz wrote on Sun, 31 January 2010 02:55 |
@R3:
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true freedom is when a human being does everything without restraint and consequences.
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do you agree with this statement?
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Like I said, it depends on what you mean by freedom.
I disagree with the quote because it state's "true" freedom. We, as humans, are unable to imagine what 'true' freedom is. It's impossible. Beyond our comprehension. Think about it. Can you really think of a dimensional plane without limitations? Limitations such as simply the requirement of walking on a surface of land as opposed to floating.
However, that's getting philosophical and off topic.
The point is, if people were given a chance to live freely in their society, they would one day develop a government to lead them. People desire two things: the freedom to do whatever they want and the power to accomplish goals without intervention. So, even if people are given a 'free society' they will eventually create a government to run it for them.
Just think about it for a second and you will realize that it makes sense. When you are exposed to something for a duration of time, you eventually get accustomed to it, get bored of it, and learn to take it for granted.
If people are given a free society, they will initially appreciate it. But a few years in they will start to take it for granted and lose interest in maintaining their life style on their own. That's when they would devise a way so that another body handles running their society while they continue living the way they want.
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| Re: Which Society do you pick? [message #418977 is a reply to message #418811] |
Sun, 31 January 2010 19:22 |
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NukeIt15
Messages: 987
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Colonel |
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libertarians always crack me up.
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Glad to be useful for something. Just taking a shot in the dark here, but may I assume that there is a reason behind your mirth? Care to share it?
"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. Horrid mischief would ensue were (the law-abiding) deprived of the use of them." - Thomas Paine
Remember, kids: illiteracy is cool. If you took the time to read this, you are clearly a loser who will never get laid. You've been warned.
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| Re: Which Society do you pick? [message #418983 is a reply to message #418977] |
Sun, 31 January 2010 21:08 |
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nikki6ixx
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Registered: August 2007
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General (2 Stars) |
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| NukeIt15 wrote on Sun, 31 January 2010 20:22 |
| Quote: |
libertarians always crack me up.
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Glad to be useful for something. Just taking a shot in the dark here, but may I assume that there is a reason behind your mirth? Care to share it?
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Mirth? Because it's Surth!
Renegade:
| Aircraftkiller wrote on Fri, 10 January 2014 16:56 |
The only game where everyone competes to be an e-janitor.
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