Home » General Discussions » Heated Discussions and Debates » Secular democracy
| Re: Secular democracy [message #417999 is a reply to message #417997] |
Tue, 19 January 2010 10:49   |
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Starbuzzz
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| surth? / surth! wrote on Tue, 19 January 2010 08:45 |
| Starbuzzz wrote on Mon, 18 January 2010 22:17 |
Complacency in this matter will only be exploited by the Islamic extremists who are hell-bent on "conquest" of Europe by Islam. Perhaps that's why I am a bit supportive of and applaud the recent Swiss vote to ban minarets from being built in Switzerland. Its a baby step in the right direction. Sometimes you just have to show who's boss...even if it tarnishes the image.
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Thats not being secular, thats denying people their freedom of religion. the ban on minarets was wrong, and obviously so.
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You are very correct there. By banning minarets, I agree that we are denying their freedom of religion and it shouldn't happen in a true secular society. But imo there is a bigger issue...
I am saying it is too early to push for a secular society...when religion is still strong. Religion seeks to only divide people and always wants more power. Always. Their quest for power will only stop/slow the progress towards a secular environment.
If they want to build minarets then fine yes. But let's remember that this is the same group of people that cannot understand freedom of speech and expression and throw a violent protest everytime a cartoon is drawn; no one should be making any compromises to satisfy them and put up with their requirements. I am just trying to point out that in the secularists eager bid to create a equal environment for everybody they are ending up creating a society that is divided into many tribes which in turn are afraid of offending each other/extra sensitive to each other. That imho is not a secular society.
We have all the secular freedoms listed down...but everyone must recognize these freedoms and respect them in a secular society and respect the right of everyone to use these freedoms within this secular society. So when someone draws a cartoon of a religious figure, there shouldn't be protesting in the streets and death threats to the cartoonist or attempts to kill the cartoonist (this happens all the time). All what this does is hurt the society's chances of being purely secular. We are ending up with a weak society.
So when you give them even more "localized" power (like sharia courts), then we are only making this gap bigger. We are only further strengthing the various tribes inside a society and the secularists end up in a deeper hole than they were in before.
I will put it in another way; for example because there are Muslims and Christians in a biology classroom, the teacher has to be extra sensitive to not offend them (and their creationist tales) while doing his/her job. This shouldn't be the case.
Every group within a society should be tolerant of each other; not just 1 group sucking up, appeasing, and trying to please and accomodate another vicious group. That imo is not secularism.
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| Re: Secular democracy [message #418000 is a reply to message #417999] |
Tue, 19 January 2010 11:06 |
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nikki6ixx
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| Starbuzzz wrote on Tue, 19 January 2010 17:49 |
I will put it in another way; for example because there are Muslims and Christians in a biology classroom, the teacher has to be extra sensitive to not offend them (and their creationist tales) while doing his/her job. This shouldn't be the case.
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wtf. Is that mandated by your school system, or is your teacher just afraid they'll bitch? Tell your teacher that they shouldn't be making accommodations for people based on their religion because that just hampers your own pursuit of knowledge. The minority should NOT be dictating the wants and needs of the majority and you can start in the classroom.
Renegade:
| Aircraftkiller wrote on Fri, 10 January 2014 16:56 |
The only game where everyone competes to be an e-janitor.
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| Re: Secular democracy [message #418011 is a reply to message #417999] |
Tue, 19 January 2010 15:00 |
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Spoony
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firstly, switzerland. it's a far less tolerant country than it's often portrayed to be, for example it was surprisingly recently they actually gave women the vote...
| Starbuzzz wrote on Tue, 19 January 2010 11:49 |
I am saying it is too early to push for a secular society...when religion is still strong. Religion seeks to only divide people and always wants more power. Always. Their quest for power will only stop/slow the progress towards a secular environment.
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i would argue that this is why we're arguing in favour of secularism not too early, but far too late. well, not "too" late, but later than we should.
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If they want to build minarets then fine yes. But let's remember that this is the same group of people that cannot understand freedom of speech and expression and throw a violent protest everytime a cartoon is drawn; no one should be making any compromises to satisfy them and put up with their requirements.
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I agree with not being forced to make compromises, but letting them build their own religious temples really isn't a compromise.
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I am just trying to point out that in the secularists eager bid to create a equal environment for everybody they are ending up creating a society that is divided into many tribes which in turn are afraid of offending each other/extra sensitive to each other. That imho is not a secular society.
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now you've lost me.... "the secularists eager bid to create an equal environment for everybody"? you'll have to explain this a bit more clearly for me, i.e. who are you talking about and what are they doing?
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Every group within a society should be tolerant of each other; not just 1 group sucking up, appeasing, and trying to please and accomodate another vicious group. That imo is not secularism.
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of course it isn't secularism.
nikki, off topic slightly but on the subject of education in britain, two things worth knowing.
1. daily prayer is compulsory (usually of a christian nature although we now have a load of islamic faith schools too)
2. the stupid bible myths are taught with the same level of certainty as what we were taught in history, geography, maths etc
by all means we should teach kids about religion for the same reason we should teach them about politics. but i've said before and i'll say again: it's immoral to do so dishonestly. for example, if you're teaching christianity to a kid, you'd better be telling him the bad points as well as the "good", e.g. the complete lack of evidence for its truthfulness, its indescribably evil track record throughout history etc
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
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| Re: Secular democracy [message #418015 is a reply to message #418000] |
Tue, 19 January 2010 15:47 |
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ChewML
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| nikki6ixx wrote on Tue, 19 January 2010 12:06 |
| Starbuzzz wrote on Tue, 19 January 2010 17:49 |
I will put it in another way; for example because there are Muslims and Christians in a biology classroom, the teacher has to be extra sensitive to not offend them (and their creationist tales) while doing his/her job. This shouldn't be the case.
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wtf. Is that mandated by your school system, or is your teacher just afraid they'll bitch? Tell your teacher that they shouldn't be making accommodations for people based on their religion because that just hampers your own pursuit of knowledge. The minority should NOT be dictating the wants and needs of the majority and you can start in the classroom.
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Yes, I am pretty sure American teachers are required to be very careful when it comes to anything someone could throw a shit fit about. Which is normally religion related when it comes to schools from what I have read in the local news.
The only thing America has going for it is the illusion of democracy. I am by no means racist/prejudice of any sort against any group of people. But the way all this "minority" BS is handled is just plain stupid.
I only think that people born in Africa and later move to America should qualify as African-American. If you were born in America, you are fucking American. Same goes for any other mix of races people come up with.
But no... this is how it is here.
My girlfriend has worked her ass off all through school, because she wanted to go to college from the moment she heard of it.
She had perfect attendance up until the middle of her high school time (when she realized she could miss a lot of school and still get A's).
She had the highest grade point average possible (5.0), including weighted "honors" classes.
Never got in any trouble in school, or out for that matter.
When the time came to go to college, she got a full ride scholarship, and some extra money for books each semester. To keep it she has to keep a pretty high grade point average.
But her friend from high school, who had a lower grade average, and didn't work nearly as hard to get to college... also got a full ride scholarship, but nearly twice as much extra money each semester for expenses, and only has to keep a grade point average that is the equivalent of C's and D's... Why? Because she was Mexican... even though she was born and raised in America.
The minority rules here in America.
I say we are all equal, there are no race cards to be played. You reap what you sow. Granted some are born in wealthier families, they can lose it all. As can a person born into poverty find a way to become rich.
[Updated on: Tue, 19 January 2010 15:51] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Secular democracy [message #418017 is a reply to message #417999] |
Tue, 19 January 2010 16:10 |
SPIKDUM
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| Starbuzzz wrote on Tue, 19 January 2010 11:49 |
| surth? / surth! wrote on Tue, 19 January 2010 08:45 |
| Starbuzzz wrote on Mon, 18 January 2010 22:17 |
Complacency in this matter will only be exploited by the Islamic extremists who are hell-bent on "conquest" of Europe by Islam. Perhaps that's why I am a bit supportive of and applaud the recent Swiss vote to ban minarets from being built in Switzerland. Its a baby step in the right direction. Sometimes you just have to show who's boss...even if it tarnishes the image.
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Thats not being secular, thats denying people their freedom of religion. the ban on minarets was wrong, and obviously so.
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You are very correct there. By banning minarets, I agree that we are denying their freedom of religion and it shouldn't happen in a true secular society. But imo there is a bigger issue...
I am saying it is too early to push for a secular society...when religion is still strong. Religion seeks to only divide people and always wants more power. Always. Their quest for power will only stop/slow the progress towards a secular environment.
If they want to build minarets then fine yes. But let's remember that this is the same group of people that cannot understand freedom of speech and expression and throw a violent protest everytime a cartoon is drawn; no one should be making any compromises to satisfy them and put up with their requirements. I am just trying to point out that in the secularists eager bid to create a equal environment for everybody they are ending up creating a society that is divided into many tribes which in turn are afraid of offending each other/extra sensitive to each other. That imho is not a secular society.
We have all the secular freedoms listed down...but everyone must recognize these freedoms and respect them in a secular society and respect the right of everyone to use these freedoms within this secular society. So when someone draws a cartoon of a religious figure, there shouldn't be protesting in the streets and death threats to the cartoonist or attempts to kill the cartoonist (this happens all the time). All what this does is hurt the society's chances of being purely secular. We are ending up with a weak society.
So when you give them even more "localized" power (like sharia courts), then we are only making this gap bigger. We are only further strengthing the various tribes inside a society and the secularists end up in a deeper hole than they were in before.
I will put it in another way; for example because there are Muslims and Christians in a biology classroom, the teacher has to be extra sensitive to not offend them (and their creationist tales) while doing his/her job. This shouldn't be the case.
Every group within a society should be tolerant of each other; not just 1 group sucking up, appeasing, and trying to please and accomodate another vicious group. That imo is not secularism.
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Churches are not allowed whatsoever in saudi-arabia for instance, but they finance the construction of mosques in europe.
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| Re: Secular democracy [message #418019 is a reply to message #417977] |
Tue, 19 January 2010 16:35 |
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archerman
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| Spoony wrote on Tue, 19 January 2010 05:11 |
is it complicated? turkey is often called "secular", but it's only "secular" when you compare it to the hardcore islamic states in the middle east, countries like saudi arabia where islam really does have it all its own way. compared to the rest of europe, turkey is by no means secular.
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give some examples, like "turkey is doing this but x european country is doing that so turkey is less secular".
sorry for my English
[Updated on: Tue, 19 January 2010 16:48] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Secular democracy [message #418020 is a reply to message #418019] |
Tue, 19 January 2010 18:05 |
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Starbuzzz
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| archerman wrote on Tue, 19 January 2010 17:35 |
| Spoony wrote on Tue, 19 January 2010 05:11 |
is it complicated? turkey is often called "secular", but it's only "secular" when you compare it to the hardcore islamic states in the middle east, countries like saudi arabia where islam really does have it all its own way. compared to the rest of europe, turkey is by no means secular.
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give some examples, like "turkey is doing this but x european country is doing that so turkey is less secular".
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blocking internet websites?
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE60H2WJ20100118?type=technologyNews
^ Doesn't happen in Europe.
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| Re: Secular democracy [message #418023 is a reply to message #418015] |
Tue, 19 January 2010 18:25 |
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GEORGE ZIMMER
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| Chew wrote on Tue, 19 January 2010 16:47 |
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Fucking agreed. The minority dictates so much shit here it's ridiculous. The 1920's are over, we're not going to be lynching blacks all of a sudden because they're not getting a free fucking scholarship when they did nothing in school.
I get what you mean Spoony by a "constitution" and such, and I support it a lot- but even America, the ones that you're referencing for such an idea, has just as much retarded minority controlling the majority mentality. Something more needs to be done to knock this shit off.
| Spoony wrote on Tue, 19 January 2010 16:00 |
by all means we should teach kids about religion for the same reason we should teach them about politics. but i've said before and i'll say again: it's immoral to do so dishonestly. for example, if you're teaching christianity to a kid, you'd better be telling him the bad points as well as the "good", e.g. the complete lack of evidence for its truthfulness, its indescribably evil track record throughout history etc
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Agreed, I don't mind people teaching about religion. But when they're shoving it down your throat without really giving any history lessons on the evils it's done to this world, you're not helping anything...
Toggle Spoiler| Scrin wrote on Sat, 24 January 2009 13:22 |
| cAmpa wrote on Sat, 24 January 2009 12:45 |
Scrin, stop pming people to get the building bars.
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FUCK YOU AND THIS SHIT GAME WITH YOUR SCRIPTS!!! I HAVE ASKING YOU AND ANOTHER NOOBS HERE ABOUT HELP WITH THAT BUILDING ICONS FEATURES FOR YEARS, BUT YOU KEEP IGNORING ME AND KEEP WRITE SHIT, SO BURN YOU AND YOUR ASSLICKERS FRIENDS, THIS TIME I'M NOT COME BACK!!!!!!!!!   
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[Updated on: Tue, 19 January 2010 18:29] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Secular democracy [message #418028 is a reply to message #418023] |
Tue, 19 January 2010 19:37 |
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Starbuzzz
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| Spoony wrote on Tue, 19 January 2010 16:00 |
now you've lost me.... "the secularists eager bid to create an equal environment for everybody"? you'll have to explain this a bit more clearly for me, i.e. who are you talking about and what are they doing?
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I am talking about the folks in the political circles here that are behind the "diversity" agenda. They write the policies that encourage and promote diversity and aid in the process of imposing the double standard. They love to tell you "how America's strength is its rich multicultural diversity." They don't realize that all they are doing is creating a society that has more walls crisscrossing inside it.
Perhaps I shouldn't have referred to them as secularists in my previous post.
@ nikki:
Basically what Chew said; race and religion is always a hot topic here. As far as the biology classroom, this is one of the maddest things that happened in recent times:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitzmiller_v._Dover_Area_School_District
There is a constant struggle here as christian powerbrokers come up with new ways to get morning prayer, 10 commandments and creationism introduced back into the school system.
Hell, it is so bad that NASCAR racing has mandatory televised public prayers before each race.
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| Re: Secular democracy [message #418038 is a reply to message #418023] |
Tue, 19 January 2010 21:02 |
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ChewML
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| GEORGE ZIMMER wrote on Tue, 19 January 2010 19:25 |
| Spoony wrote on Tue, 19 January 2010 16:00 |
by all means we should teach kids about religion for the same reason we should teach them about politics. but i've said before and i'll say again: it's immoral to do so dishonestly. for example, if you're teaching christianity to a kid, you'd better be telling him the bad points as well as the "good", e.g. the complete lack of evidence for its truthfulness, its indescribably evil track record throughout history etc
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Agreed, I don't mind people teaching about religion. But when they're shoving it down your throat without really giving any history lessons on the evils it's done to this world, you're not helping anything...
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One thing I will give credit to my girlfriend's college for is, when she took a couple of religion classes they said they would cover the bigger religions evenly across the board... discussing the good, bad, and raising questions about the truthfulness in all of them. And from what she told me, her teacher actually did a fair job. But that is just one classroom among many here.
Edit: Also imagine this shit storm if you can... we have a black history month in America... why not a white history month? 
[Updated on: Tue, 19 January 2010 21:27] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Secular democracy [message #418058 is a reply to message #418020] |
Wed, 20 January 2010 07:20 |
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archerman
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| Starbuzzz wrote on Wed, 20 January 2010 03:05 |
| archerman wrote on Tue, 19 January 2010 17:35 |
| Spoony wrote on Tue, 19 January 2010 05:11 |
is it complicated? turkey is often called "secular", but it's only "secular" when you compare it to the hardcore islamic states in the middle east, countries like saudi arabia where islam really does have it all its own way. compared to the rest of europe, turkey is by no means secular.
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give some examples, like "turkey is doing this but x european country is doing that so turkey is less secular".
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blocking internet websites?
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE60H2WJ20100118?type=technologyNews
^ Doesn't happen in Europe.
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this is not related to secularity.
sorry for my English
[Updated on: Wed, 20 January 2010 07:21] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Secular democracy [message #418060 is a reply to message #418017] |
Wed, 20 January 2010 07:42 |
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Herr Surth
Messages: 1684
Registered: July 2007
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| SPIKDUM wrote on Tue, 19 January 2010 17:10 |
| Starbuzzz wrote on Tue, 19 January 2010 11:49 |
| surth? / surth! wrote on Tue, 19 January 2010 08:45 |
| Starbuzzz wrote on Mon, 18 January 2010 22:17 |
Complacency in this matter will only be exploited by the Islamic extremists who are hell-bent on "conquest" of Europe by Islam. Perhaps that's why I am a bit supportive of and applaud the recent Swiss vote to ban minarets from being built in Switzerland. Its a baby step in the right direction. Sometimes you just have to show who's boss...even if it tarnishes the image.
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Thats not being secular, thats denying people their freedom of religion. the ban on minarets was wrong, and obviously so.
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You are very correct there. By banning minarets, I agree that we are denying their freedom of religion and it shouldn't happen in a true secular society. But imo there is a bigger issue...
I am saying it is too early to push for a secular society...when religion is still strong. Religion seeks to only divide people and always wants more power. Always. Their quest for power will only stop/slow the progress towards a secular environment.
If they want to build minarets then fine yes. But let's remember that this is the same group of people that cannot understand freedom of speech and expression and throw a violent protest everytime a cartoon is drawn; no one should be making any compromises to satisfy them and put up with their requirements. I am just trying to point out that in the secularists eager bid to create a equal environment for everybody they are ending up creating a society that is divided into many tribes which in turn are afraid of offending each other/extra sensitive to each other. That imho is not a secular society.
We have all the secular freedoms listed down...but everyone must recognize these freedoms and respect them in a secular society and respect the right of everyone to use these freedoms within this secular society. So when someone draws a cartoon of a religious figure, there shouldn't be protesting in the streets and death threats to the cartoonist or attempts to kill the cartoonist (this happens all the time). All what this does is hurt the society's chances of being purely secular. We are ending up with a weak society.
So when you give them even more "localized" power (like sharia courts), then we are only making this gap bigger. We are only further strengthing the various tribes inside a society and the secularists end up in a deeper hole than they were in before.
I will put it in another way; for example because there are Muslims and Christians in a biology classroom, the teacher has to be extra sensitive to not offend them (and their creationist tales) while doing his/her job. This shouldn't be the case.
Every group within a society should be tolerant of each other; not just 1 group sucking up, appeasing, and trying to please and accomodate another vicious group. That imo is not secularism.
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Churches are not allowed whatsoever in saudi-arabia for instance, but they finance the construction of mosques in europe.
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You didnt vote for Geert Wilders, did you?
just trollin'
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| Re: Secular democracy [message #418062 is a reply to message #418058] |
Wed, 20 January 2010 08:39 |
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GEORGE ZIMMER
Messages: 2605
Registered: March 2006
Karma: 0
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| archerman wrote on Wed, 20 January 2010 15:20 |
| Starbuzzz wrote on Wed, 20 January 2010 03:05 |
| archerman wrote on Tue, 19 January 2010 17:35 |
| Spoony wrote on Tue, 19 January 2010 05:11 |
is it complicated? turkey is often called "secular", but it's only "secular" when you compare it to the hardcore islamic states in the middle east, countries like saudi arabia where islam really does have it all its own way. compared to the rest of europe, turkey is by no means secular.
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give some examples, like "turkey is doing this but x european country is doing that so turkey is less secular".
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blocking internet websites?
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE60H2WJ20100118?type=technologyNews
^ Doesn't happen in Europe.
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this is not related to secularity.
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Try making a blog saying "Islam is a shitty religion, seriously. Also, eating meat is awesome.".
See how long it takes for it to get shut down. That is, if you can even access any blog making sites.
Toggle Spoiler| Scrin wrote on Sat, 24 January 2009 13:22 |
| cAmpa wrote on Sat, 24 January 2009 12:45 |
Scrin, stop pming people to get the building bars.
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FUCK YOU AND THIS SHIT GAME WITH YOUR SCRIPTS!!! I HAVE ASKING YOU AND ANOTHER NOOBS HERE ABOUT HELP WITH THAT BUILDING ICONS FEATURES FOR YEARS, BUT YOU KEEP IGNORING ME AND KEEP WRITE SHIT, SO BURN YOU AND YOUR ASSLICKERS FRIENDS, THIS TIME I'M NOT COME BACK!!!!!!!!!
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| Re: Secular democracy [message #418064 is a reply to message #418060] |
Wed, 20 January 2010 09:02 |
SPIKDUM
Messages: 58
Registered: December 2009
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Recruit |
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| surth? / surth! wrote on Wed, 20 January 2010 08:42 |
| SPIKDUM wrote on Tue, 19 January 2010 17:10 |
| Starbuzzz wrote on Tue, 19 January 2010 11:49 |
| surth? / surth! wrote on Tue, 19 January 2010 08:45 |
| Starbuzzz wrote on Mon, 18 January 2010 22:17 |
Complacency in this matter will only be exploited by the Islamic extremists who are hell-bent on "conquest" of Europe by Islam. Perhaps that's why I am a bit supportive of and applaud the recent Swiss vote to ban minarets from being built in Switzerland. Its a baby step in the right direction. Sometimes you just have to show who's boss...even if it tarnishes the image.
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Thats not being secular, thats denying people their freedom of religion. the ban on minarets was wrong, and obviously so.
|
You are very correct there. By banning minarets, I agree that we are denying their freedom of religion and it shouldn't happen in a true secular society. But imo there is a bigger issue...
I am saying it is too early to push for a secular society...when religion is still strong. Religion seeks to only divide people and always wants more power. Always. Their quest for power will only stop/slow the progress towards a secular environment.
If they want to build minarets then fine yes. But let's remember that this is the same group of people that cannot understand freedom of speech and expression and throw a violent protest everytime a cartoon is drawn; no one should be making any compromises to satisfy them and put up with their requirements. I am just trying to point out that in the secularists eager bid to create a equal environment for everybody they are ending up creating a society that is divided into many tribes which in turn are afraid of offending each other/extra sensitive to each other. That imho is not a secular society.
We have all the secular freedoms listed down...but everyone must recognize these freedoms and respect them in a secular society and respect the right of everyone to use these freedoms within this secular society. So when someone draws a cartoon of a religious figure, there shouldn't be protesting in the streets and death threats to the cartoonist or attempts to kill the cartoonist (this happens all the time). All what this does is hurt the society's chances of being purely secular. We are ending up with a weak society.
So when you give them even more "localized" power (like sharia courts), then we are only making this gap bigger. We are only further strengthing the various tribes inside a society and the secularists end up in a deeper hole than they were in before.
I will put it in another way; for example because there are Muslims and Christians in a biology classroom, the teacher has to be extra sensitive to not offend them (and their creationist tales) while doing his/her job. This shouldn't be the case.
Every group within a society should be tolerant of each other; not just 1 group sucking up, appeasing, and trying to please and accomodate another vicious group. That imo is not secularism.
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Churches are not allowed whatsoever in saudi-arabia for instance, but they finance the construction of mosques in europe.
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You didnt vote for Geert Wilders, did you?
just trollin'
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Naw, Rita Verdonk, she's like a Geert Wilders "Light". I'll probably vote for him this year though, considering he's nr 1 in the polls he can actually get something done now.
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| Re: Secular democracy [message #418065 is a reply to message #418064] |
Wed, 20 January 2010 09:07 |
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Herr Surth
Messages: 1684
Registered: July 2007
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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| SPIKDUM wrote on Wed, 20 January 2010 10:02 |
| surth? / surth! wrote on Wed, 20 January 2010 08:42 |
| SPIKDUM wrote on Tue, 19 January 2010 17:10 |
| Starbuzzz wrote on Tue, 19 January 2010 11:49 |
| surth? / surth! wrote on Tue, 19 January 2010 08:45 |
| Starbuzzz wrote on Mon, 18 January 2010 22:17 |
Complacency in this matter will only be exploited by the Islamic extremists who are hell-bent on "conquest" of Europe by Islam. Perhaps that's why I am a bit supportive of and applaud the recent Swiss vote to ban minarets from being built in Switzerland. Its a baby step in the right direction. Sometimes you just have to show who's boss...even if it tarnishes the image.
|
Thats not being secular, thats denying people their freedom of religion. the ban on minarets was wrong, and obviously so.
|
You are very correct there. By banning minarets, I agree that we are denying their freedom of religion and it shouldn't happen in a true secular society. But imo there is a bigger issue...
I am saying it is too early to push for a secular society...when religion is still strong. Religion seeks to only divide people and always wants more power. Always. Their quest for power will only stop/slow the progress towards a secular environment.
If they want to build minarets then fine yes. But let's remember that this is the same group of people that cannot understand freedom of speech and expression and throw a violent protest everytime a cartoon is drawn; no one should be making any compromises to satisfy them and put up with their requirements. I am just trying to point out that in the secularists eager bid to create a equal environment for everybody they are ending up creating a society that is divided into many tribes which in turn are afraid of offending each other/extra sensitive to each other. That imho is not a secular society.
We have all the secular freedoms listed down...but everyone must recognize these freedoms and respect them in a secular society and respect the right of everyone to use these freedoms within this secular society. So when someone draws a cartoon of a religious figure, there shouldn't be protesting in the streets and death threats to the cartoonist or attempts to kill the cartoonist (this happens all the time). All what this does is hurt the society's chances of being purely secular. We are ending up with a weak society.
So when you give them even more "localized" power (like sharia courts), then we are only making this gap bigger. We are only further strengthing the various tribes inside a society and the secularists end up in a deeper hole than they were in before.
I will put it in another way; for example because there are Muslims and Christians in a biology classroom, the teacher has to be extra sensitive to not offend them (and their creationist tales) while doing his/her job. This shouldn't be the case.
Every group within a society should be tolerant of each other; not just 1 group sucking up, appeasing, and trying to please and accomodate another vicious group. That imo is not secularism.
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Churches are not allowed whatsoever in saudi-arabia for instance, but they finance the construction of mosques in europe.
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You didnt vote for Geert Wilders, did you?
just trollin'
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Naw, Rita Verdonk, she's like a Geert Wilders "Light". I'll probably vote for him this year though, considering he's nr 1 in the polls he can actually get something done now.
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Hah!
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| Re: Secular democracy [message #418075 is a reply to message #418062] |
Wed, 20 January 2010 13:52 |
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archerman
Messages: 348
Registered: May 2007
Location: Istanbul / Turkey
Karma: 0
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Recruit |
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| GEORGE ZIMMER wrote on Wed, 20 January 2010 17:39 |
Try making a blog saying "Islam is a shitty religion, seriously. Also, eating meat is awesome.".
See how long it takes for it to get shut down. That is, if you can even access any blog making sites.
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no, the state wont do anything in such a case. I highly doubt you will find an example for this. at least I never heard of such a thing.
I am asking for a solid example. not a groundless assumption.
sorry for my English
[Updated on: Wed, 20 January 2010 14:02] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Secular democracy [message #418086 is a reply to message #417834] |
Wed, 20 January 2010 14:34 |
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BBC - 10/12/09
Unless you're going to acuse my state media of lying (which I can at least do...)
No free media, no YouTube - I reckon they'd more than happily interpret the hypothetical "Islam Sucks" blog as an insult to the state... (If only to keep the peace, but hardly a peace - see the quote by Ben Franklin (IIRC) about liberty and security)
Edit - (Probably) less biased - Wikipedia on human rights in Turkey
Renguard is a wonderful initiative
Toggle Spoiler
| BBC news, quoting... |
Supporters of Proposition 8 will argue California does not discriminate against gays, as the current law allows them to get married - as long as they wed a partner of the opposite sex.
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| halokid wrote on Mon, 11 October 2010 08:46 |
| R315r4z0r wrote on Mon, 11 October 2010 15:35 |
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the hell is that?
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[Updated on: Wed, 20 January 2010 14:41] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Secular democracy [message #418087 is a reply to message #418086] |
Wed, 20 January 2010 14:48 |
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archerman
Messages: 348
Registered: May 2007
Location: Istanbul / Turkey
Karma: 0
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Recruit |
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| CarrierII wrote on Wed, 20 January 2010 23:34 |
I reckon they'd more than happily interpret the hypothetical "Islam Sucks" blog as an insult to the state.
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are you drunk? you have no idea about what you are talking about. if you really think that this is the way how things work over here, you must be really ignorant. please stop posting groundless assumptions.
this is an example of a website you mentioned. and it is still there. I really wonder what kind of irrelevant links will you post here.
sorry for my English
[Updated on: Wed, 20 January 2010 14:56] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Secular democracy [message #418104 is a reply to message #417834] |
Wed, 20 January 2010 17:18 |
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Dover
Messages: 2547
Registered: March 2006
Location: Monterey, California
Karma: 0
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General (2 Stars) |
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There's also all the atrocities your government denies.
| DarkDemin wrote on Thu, 03 August 2006 19:19 |
Remember kids the internet is serious business.
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| Re: Secular democracy [message #418131 is a reply to message #417834] |
Thu, 21 January 2010 03:48 |
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Dover
Messages: 2547
Registered: March 2006
Location: Monterey, California
Karma: 0
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General (2 Stars) |
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Unless archerman really believes the Armenian genocide never happened.
| DarkDemin wrote on Thu, 03 August 2006 19:19 |
Remember kids the internet is serious business.
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