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| Secular democracy [message #417834] |
Sat, 16 January 2010 19:43  |
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Spoony
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Specifically talking about Britain here. I'd love to know why we still have an established religion here, given that most of us have generally come to the conclusion that democracy is a good thing (and, of course, it was set up at a time when the king's word was the beginning and the end of the argument).
Its current leader Rowan Williams is, I believe, a lot more sinister than most people think he is... most see him as a bubble-headed fool. He says atheists aren't fully human, he has come out in support of "some aspects of sharia law" (we now have sharia law courts operating in Britain, and I'm not sure why we haven't had any riots are about that yet), he continually chides us about "materialism". This from a man who has two palaces, insists on tax breaks, he's the head of a company that's one of the biggest landowners around, has dozens of automatic seats in parliament, and most revolting of all, has control over thousands of schools.
So why do we still have it? We occasionally get a rather feeble question brought up and debated on the monarchy, such as: should we repeat the ban on catholics becoming the monarch, should we give women on the same level as men where succession is concerned... I say feeble because it ignores the fact we shouldn't have a monarchy at all, nor an established church.
To summarise. We could use a constitution like the US's. Separate church and state. You're free to believe whatever the fuck you like, but here's the line in the sand.
Religion should not be tax exempt.
Religion should not be an excuse to avoid following a law everyone else is subject to.
Religion should have no power to make laws that's denied the rest of us... laws must be determined democratically (we've never had this in the UK)
Religion does not deserve automatic seats in parliament.
Religion should not have the power to brainwash kids and call it education.
any objections?
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| Re: Secular democracy [message #417844 is a reply to message #417834] |
Sat, 16 January 2010 22:36  |
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GEORGE ZIMMER
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If I lived in England, I'd be in full support of this. I'm sick of the bullshit religion-induced vomiting we've had to suffer through here as it is, and it seems like you guys have it a bit worse.
This coming from a man who still does believe that there's a God and etc- but I think organized religion has way overstayed its welcome.
It's like a guy that you invited over to your house decides to sell his house, stays at your house, and does nothing but sit on the couch eating potato chips and drinking beer. And then starts running the house. And if you try to kick him out, the police bursts through your door and says you can't do that.
Toggle Spoiler| Scrin wrote on Sat, 24 January 2009 13:22 |
| cAmpa wrote on Sat, 24 January 2009 12:45 |
Scrin, stop pming people to get the building bars.
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FUCK YOU AND THIS SHIT GAME WITH YOUR SCRIPTS!!! I HAVE ASKING YOU AND ANOTHER NOOBS HERE ABOUT HELP WITH THAT BUILDING ICONS FEATURES FOR YEARS, BUT YOU KEEP IGNORING ME AND KEEP WRITE SHIT, SO BURN YOU AND YOUR ASSLICKERS FRIENDS, THIS TIME I'M NOT COME BACK!!!!!!!!!   
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| Re: Secular democracy [message #417846 is a reply to message #417834] |
Sat, 16 January 2010 22:45 |
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Altzan
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"Religion should not be tax exempt."
Agreed.
"Religion should not be an excuse to avoid following a law everyone else is subject to."
Mostly agreed. There are some cases that I'd accept although they're more of the "law says you can but religion says no" variety, like abortion.
"Religion should have no power to make laws that's denied the rest of us... laws must be determined democratically (we've never had this in the UK)"
Agreed.
"Religion does not deserve automatic seats in parliament."
Agreed.
"Religion should not have the power to brainwash kids and call it education."
If you mean mandatory teachings, then agreed. We invite people to our church and try talking to people about us, but if they don't want to listen, we don't majorly press the point. (Maybe sone follow-up visits or so, but that's it, really.)
I cannot imagine how the clockwork of the universe can exist without a clockmaker. ~Voltaire
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| Re: Secular democracy [message #417855 is a reply to message #417834] |
Sun, 17 January 2010 00:24 |
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NukeIt15
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Religion is a personal decision. It has absolutely no place in policy- no matter how the laws are written, or who writes them, or why. Period. IMHO, the most sacred right a person has is that of self-determination- the right to choose what to believe and how to lead their life. It is the foundation of numerous other critical freedoms like the rights to free speech, privacy, self-defense, property... Government sponsorship of a religion- any religion- infringes on that right by codifying a particular belief structure and all of the subjective morality that goes with it.
Most governments were founded during a time when it was unthinkable to not belong to the dominant religion in that part of the world, so naturally their laws reflect whichever religion that happened to be. Many people still have some difficulty separating morality from religion, and hold the (mistaken) belief that without some element of religious guidance society would break down. However, humanity has accepted the same common threads of morality across the entire globe for longer than any single religion has existed; we do not require the input of churches or priests and what have you to tell right from wrong.
Note that I am not claiming as fact that there is no God. The choice of whether or not to believe in God, gods, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster is up to the individual. If you believe that we derive our morality from the power that created us, that is fine. However, it is part of our being as the social creatures that we are- no matter what faith a person does or does not follow, they will learn morality so long as they are raised by other human beings who accept a common rule of law (be it written or unwritten).
Governments are secular creations, and they ought only to have secular powers. Religious laws should only be applied to followers of that same religion, and no one else at all.
"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. Horrid mischief would ensue were (the law-abiding) deprived of the use of them." - Thomas Paine
Remember, kids: illiteracy is cool. If you took the time to read this, you are clearly a loser who will never get laid. You've been warned.
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| Re: Secular democracy [message #417880 is a reply to message #417855] |
Sun, 17 January 2010 08:03 |
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Spoony
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| NukeIt15 wrote on Sun, 17 January 2010 01:24 |
Religion is a personal decision. It has absolutely no place in policy- no matter how the laws are written, or who writes them, or why. Period. IMHO, the most sacred right a person has is that of self-determination- the right to choose what to believe and how to lead their life. It is the foundation of numerous other critical freedoms like the rights to free speech, privacy, self-defense, property... Government sponsorship of a religion- any religion- infringes on that right by codifying a particular belief structure and all of the subjective morality that goes with it.
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You use the word sacred. A few people have actually remarked upon the fact I - an atheist - have used the word myself to describe concepts like freedom of speech, freedom of thought etc. I can see why they'd be surprised... I don't mean sacred as in "given by a god", I simply mean that they have worth beyond description.
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Most governments were founded during a time when it was unthinkable to not belong to the dominant religion in that part of the world
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That's certainly true. You keep hearing from the religious that, for example, christianity must be a good thing because look at all these great scientists, artists, composers etc throughout the ages who were religious. A quick look at the period usually shows you that it was a fucking good idea to at least pretend to be a christian at the time.
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Many people still have some difficulty separating morality from religion, and hold the (mistaken) belief that without some element of religious guidance society would break down. However, humanity has accepted the same common threads of morality across the entire globe for longer than any single religion has existed; we do not require the input of churches or priests and what have you to tell right from wrong.
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mmhmm
but even if this wasn't so, an established church is still a terrible idea. most religious people ought to be agreeing with me here and speaking in favour of secularism. historically, when you give one religion power, every other religion (and atheists and agnostics, of course) - is worse off for it. it always persecutes non-believers. sometimes in quite a mild way - i wouldn't claim that the situation in britain is anything like as evil as in the hardcore islamic states, for example, but it's the same principle.
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Note that I am not claiming as fact that there is no God. The choice of whether or not to believe in God, gods, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster is up to the individual.
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i'm not claiming as fact that there's no "god" either, simply saying two things. firstly nobody's ever, ever come up with a convincing argument - never mind evidence - that there is such a being LET ALONE that they know the details (and religions don't just say "there's a really powerful entity that made the universe" - i.e. deism - they say things like "and i can tell you that he's interested in you, he listens to your prayers, he will judge you when you die, he has firm views about your sex life....")
secondly even if you proved to me that for example christianity was true, i'd still be making this thread, i'd still be arguing in favour of secular democracy. after all, the monotheistic concept is the most ultimate dictatorship ever conceived (which is why it puzzles me why so many americans want to implement it)
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Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
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| Re: Secular democracy [message #417884 is a reply to message #417834] |
Sun, 17 January 2010 08:51 |
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archerman
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| Spoony wrote on Sun, 17 January 2010 04:43 |
any objections?
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no. I totally agree.
| Spoony wrote on Sun, 17 January 2010 04:43 |
Religion does not deserve automatic seats in parliament.
Religion should not have the power to brainwash kids and call it education.
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I strongly agree with this one. my country has been suffering from this since the early '50's.
sorry for my English
[Updated on: Sun, 17 January 2010 08:53] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Secular democracy [message #417890 is a reply to message #417834] |
Sun, 17 January 2010 11:47 |
SPIKDUM
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I'm from the Netherlands so it's pretty obvious I fully agree, and from what I see everywhere so does the majority of our country.
However our politicians don't, and those who do are the ones who need bodyguards.
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| Re: Secular democracy [message #417907 is a reply to message #417884] |
Sun, 17 January 2010 15:48 |
Sean
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| archerman wrote on Sun, 17 January 2010 09:51 |
| Spoony wrote on Sun, 17 January 2010 04:43 |
any objections?
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no. I totally agree.
| Spoony wrote on Sun, 17 January 2010 04:43 |
Religion does not deserve automatic seats in parliament.
Religion should not have the power to brainwash kids and call it education.
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I strongly agree with this one. my country has been suffering from this since the early '50's.
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^That
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| Re: Secular democracy [message #417918 is a reply to message #417916] |
Sun, 17 January 2010 18:27 |
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GEORGE ZIMMER
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| liquidv2 wrote on Sun, 17 January 2010 19:26 |
everything that was said so far in this topic was entirely reasonable
i'm willing to bet anyone that would object is an unreasonable person
where's that Muadib15 dude?
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Muadib15 is Republican, not ridiculously Christian IIRC.
yes, contrary to constant jokes that get old after the 800th time, Republicans and religious nuts aren't always the same
Toggle Spoiler| Scrin wrote on Sat, 24 January 2009 13:22 |
| cAmpa wrote on Sat, 24 January 2009 12:45 |
Scrin, stop pming people to get the building bars.
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FUCK YOU AND THIS SHIT GAME WITH YOUR SCRIPTS!!! I HAVE ASKING YOU AND ANOTHER NOOBS HERE ABOUT HELP WITH THAT BUILDING ICONS FEATURES FOR YEARS, BUT YOU KEEP IGNORING ME AND KEEP WRITE SHIT, SO BURN YOU AND YOUR ASSLICKERS FRIENDS, THIS TIME I'M NOT COME BACK!!!!!!!!!
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| Re: Secular democracy [message #417929 is a reply to message #417884] |
Sun, 17 January 2010 21:07 |
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Dover
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| archerman wrote on Sun, 17 January 2010 07:51 |
I strongly agree with this one. my country has been suffering from this since the 1500's.
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Fixed.
| DarkDemin wrote on Thu, 03 August 2006 19:19 |
Remember kids the internet is serious business.
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| Re: Secular democracy [message #417931 is a reply to message #417929] |
Sun, 17 January 2010 21:16 |
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nikki6ixx
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| Dover wrote on Sun, 17 January 2010 22:07 |
| archerman wrote on Sun, 17 January 2010 07:51 |
I strongly agree with this one. my country has been suffering from this since the 1500's.
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Fixed.
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Um, since Kemal Ataturk's huuuuuuuge reforms, Turkey's been really non-secular (almost ferociously so), and continues to be today. I'd say its less secular than the United States.
Renegade:
| Aircraftkiller wrote on Fri, 10 January 2014 16:56 |
The only game where everyone competes to be an e-janitor.
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| Re: Secular democracy [message #417933 is a reply to message #417931] |
Sun, 17 January 2010 21:41 |
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Spoony
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people call turkey secular, it's only secular when you compare it to the middle east. it's halfway between europe and the middle east both geographically and culturally.
| spikdum wrote |
However our politicians don't, and those who do are the ones who need bodyguards.
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mmhmm. what's disgraceful is that our politicians portray him (if you mean who i think you mean) as the troublemaker, the criminal... rather than the people who are intent on killing him. but it's always the way... eg during the salman rushdie affair, most of our religious leaders sided with the ayatollah. (more recently when he was considered for a knighthood, people repeated the argument that salman was the villian of the piece). during the danish cartoon affair, all the condemnation was directed at the cartoonists and media outlets who showed them, rather than the baying mobs who were murdering innocent bystanders and burning embassies, or the imams who deliberately and dishonestly whipped them up.
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Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
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1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful
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| Re: Secular democracy [message #417936 is a reply to message #417934] |
Sun, 17 January 2010 23:25 |
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Spoony
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it'd be avoidable if we had a US-style constitution and actually stuck to it.
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
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| Re: Secular democracy [message #417942 is a reply to message #417936] |
Mon, 18 January 2010 04:18 |
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Dover
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| Spoony wrote on Sun, 17 January 2010 22:25 |
and actually stuck to it.
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This is the hard part.
| DarkDemin wrote on Thu, 03 August 2006 19:19 |
Remember kids the internet is serious business.
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| Re: Secular democracy [message #417948 is a reply to message #417834] |
Mon, 18 January 2010 08:02 |
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ChewML
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Now WITHOUT discussing if we personally believe in The Bible, God, or w/e... I will add a few things that I have picked up on.
The funny part of mainstream Christianity mixing with politics is... The Bible teaches against it. So if you claim to be a Christian, you should not be into politics as far as voting/campaigning/running for office. The idea that it teaches is "Pay Ceasar's things to Ceasar and God's things to God"... Which is commonly understood to mean, pay your taxes and follow the laws of the land as long as they do not contradict the laws God has given you.
Here in America if you can prove your conviction/beliefs well enough, they won't send you to war, even in the middle of a draft. Some think that is BS, well I am not discussing it in depth, just stating the fact. I would say this came with the freedom of religion part, which is supposed to be like half the reason America came to be.
Short summary timeline of how the Earth has been ruled, according to The Bible.
1. Earth was perfect, ruled by God
2. Earth lost perfection, Men ruled, some with God others without
3. Earth still not perfect, Men ruling all by themselves
4. Earth restored to perfection, God as ruler again
That is what The Bible says anyways, so we would be in step 3, step 4 is of course is in the future.
Remember all of this is NOT to start a debate about if The Bible is true or false. I just said all of this, because Christians believe in The Bible... but yet they still get into politics.
I agree that they should be seperate, but accept the fact that they can't at the moment.
[Updated on: Mon, 18 January 2010 08:04] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Secular democracy [message #417949 is a reply to message #417929] |
Mon, 18 January 2010 09:09 |
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archerman
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| Dover wrote on Mon, 18 January 2010 06:07 |
| archerman wrote on Sun, 17 January 2010 07:51 |
I strongly agree with this one. my country has been suffering from this since the 1950's.
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Fixed.
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Fixed.
| Spoony wrote on Mon, 18 January 2010 06:41 |
people call turkey secular, it's only secular when you compare it to the middle east. it's halfway between europe and the middle east both geographically and culturally.
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can you give any reasons for this statement?
sorry for my English
[Updated on: Mon, 18 January 2010 09:11] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Secular democracy [message #417977 is a reply to message #417948] |
Mon, 18 January 2010 20:11 |
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Spoony
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is it complicated? turkey is often called "secular", but it's only "secular" when you compare it to the hardcore islamic states in the middle east, countries like saudi arabia where islam really does have it all its own way. compared to the rest of europe, turkey is by no means secular.
| Chew wrote on Mon, 18 January 2010 09:02 |
The funny part of mainstream Christianity mixing with politics is... The Bible teaches against it. So if you claim to be a Christian, you should not be into politics as far as voting/campaigning/running for office. The idea that it teaches is "Pay Ceasar's things to Ceasar and God's things to God"... Which is commonly understood to mean, pay your taxes and follow the laws of the land as long as they do not contradict the laws God has given you.
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well, i've always found the render unto caesar concept rather irrelevant. after all (if i don't go into the truth or untruth question either), caesar was a theocratic dictator, as is god.
the concept was used in that manhattan declaration thingy, usual persecution-complex drivel from christians. what was it the document said? "we'll gladly render unto caesar those things that are caesar's, but under no circumstances will we render unto caesar those things that are God's". referring to matters like abortion, tolerance of homosexuals etc.
there are two glaring flaws with this assertion.
1. as i said, caesar was a theocratic dictator. america is a democracy. when you hear an american whingeing about how his system would be so much better if we just submitted to the dictator (god, not caesar) i feel like giving him a good shake and telling him to appreciate what he's got.
2. it's a useless statement until anybody can prove god this even exists, let alone that matters relating to e.g. homosexuality belong to him and are unassailable by silly things like democracy. (and even if this god did exist and did indeed have stern views on these things, i'd still be telling him to fuck off and let us have our democracy instead)
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Here in America if you can prove your conviction/beliefs well enough, they won't send you to war, even in the middle of a draft. Some think that is BS, well I am not discussing it in depth, just stating the fact.
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i'll not discuss it in depth either and simply say that conscription is immoral.
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Short summary timeline of how the Earth has been ruled, according to The Bible.
1. Earth was perfect, ruled by God
2. Earth lost perfection, Men ruled, some with God others without
3. Earth still not perfect, Men ruling all by themselves
4. Earth restored to perfection, God as ruler again
That is what The Bible says anyways, so we would be in step 3, step 4 is of course is in the future.
Remember all of this is NOT to start a debate about if The Bible is true or false.
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well, unfortunately i have to say that until its truth is verified, please don't be disappointed if you aren't taken seriously on the subject. and if the day comes when its truth is verified, prepare for my objections to intensify.
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Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
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| Re: Secular democracy [message #417978 is a reply to message #417942] |
Mon, 18 January 2010 21:17 |
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Starbuzzz
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Its kinda ridiculous that sharia courts are operating in the UK as well as any religious courts or panels. Such parallel legal systems greatly undermine the authority of government law...in this case British law. There should only be ONE law in the land and ONE administrator to enforce it, i.e, government.
I thought we are supposed to be going towards cutting the unnecessary people who hold power and consolidating into one system that makes everyone happy. I guess this is where we can blame the failed concept that is called "diversity" and see for ourselves how dangerous and premature it is to create a "multicultural" environment where every barbarian is allowed to run untamed.
People bitch about diversity and the need for integration. Integration of all peoples is fine by me BUT in no way should it compete with any native law. You want to live in the UK, fine but you leave your garbage behind and start off new under the new system. That is true integration. Creating parallel legal systems to bypass more secular native laws (that are actually MORE fair) is ridiculous and should not be allowed. Accomodation will never be integration. (what is the point of a photo id if your face is covered by a veil?)
Complacency in this matter will only be exploited by the Islamic extremists who are hell-bent on "conquest" of Europe by Islam. Perhaps that's why I am a bit supportive of and applaud the recent Swiss vote to ban minarets from being built in Switzerland. Its a baby step in the right direction. Sometimes you just have to show who's boss...even if it tarnishes the image.
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| Re: Secular democracy [message #417993 is a reply to message #417834] |
Tue, 19 January 2010 05:26 |
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Integration -> People living together.
Seperate legal systems -> Seperation of people based on culture.
Therefore Integration and Seperate legal systems are mutually exclusive.
Renguard is a wonderful initiative
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| BBC news, quoting... |
Supporters of Proposition 8 will argue California does not discriminate against gays, as the current law allows them to get married - as long as they wed a partner of the opposite sex.
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| halokid wrote on Mon, 11 October 2010 08:46 |
| R315r4z0r wrote on Mon, 11 October 2010 15:35 |
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the hell is that?
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[Updated on: Tue, 19 January 2010 05:27] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Secular democracy [message #417996 is a reply to message #417978] |
Tue, 19 January 2010 07:18 |
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Dover
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| Starbuzzz wrote on Mon, 18 January 2010 20:17 |
Perhaps that's why I am a bit supportive of and applaud the recent Swiss vote to ban minarets from being built in Switzerland.
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lol.
| DarkDemin wrote on Thu, 03 August 2006 19:19 |
Remember kids the internet is serious business.
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