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Re: Secular democracy [message #417880 is a reply to message #417855] Sun, 17 January 2010 08:03 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
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NukeIt15 wrote on Sun, 17 January 2010 01:24

Religion is a personal decision. It has absolutely no place in policy- no matter how the laws are written, or who writes them, or why. Period. IMHO, the most sacred right a person has is that of self-determination- the right to choose what to believe and how to lead their life. It is the foundation of numerous other critical freedoms like the rights to free speech, privacy, self-defense, property... Government sponsorship of a religion- any religion- infringes on that right by codifying a particular belief structure and all of the subjective morality that goes with it.

You use the word sacred. A few people have actually remarked upon the fact I - an atheist - have used the word myself to describe concepts like freedom of speech, freedom of thought etc. I can see why they'd be surprised... I don't mean sacred as in "given by a god", I simply mean that they have worth beyond description.

Quote:

Most governments were founded during a time when it was unthinkable to not belong to the dominant religion in that part of the world

That's certainly true. You keep hearing from the religious that, for example, christianity must be a good thing because look at all these great scientists, artists, composers etc throughout the ages who were religious. A quick look at the period usually shows you that it was a fucking good idea to at least pretend to be a christian at the time.

Quote:

Many people still have some difficulty separating morality from religion, and hold the (mistaken) belief that without some element of religious guidance society would break down. However, humanity has accepted the same common threads of morality across the entire globe for longer than any single religion has existed; we do not require the input of churches or priests and what have you to tell right from wrong.

mmhmm

but even if this wasn't so, an established church is still a terrible idea. most religious people ought to be agreeing with me here and speaking in favour of secularism. historically, when you give one religion power, every other religion (and atheists and agnostics, of course) - is worse off for it. it always persecutes non-believers. sometimes in quite a mild way - i wouldn't claim that the situation in britain is anything like as evil as in the hardcore islamic states, for example, but it's the same principle.

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Note that I am not claiming as fact that there is no God. The choice of whether or not to believe in God, gods, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster is up to the individual.

i'm not claiming as fact that there's no "god" either, simply saying two things. firstly nobody's ever, ever come up with a convincing argument - never mind evidence - that there is such a being LET ALONE that they know the details (and religions don't just say "there's a really powerful entity that made the universe" - i.e. deism - they say things like "and i can tell you that he's interested in you, he listens to your prayers, he will judge you when you die, he has firm views about your sex life....")

secondly even if you proved to me that for example christianity was true, i'd still be making this thread, i'd still be arguing in favour of secular democracy. after all, the monotheistic concept is the most ultimate dictatorship ever conceived (which is why it puzzles me why so many americans want to implement it)

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