Home » General Discussions » Heated Discussions and Debates » Pointfix poll. Bug or Balance?
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| Re: Pointfix poll. Bug or Balance? [message #415758 is a reply to message #414480] |
Sun, 27 December 2009 18:42   |
Jellybe4n
Messages: 409
Registered: August 2004
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I've stayed out of this, I don't mind either way about the fix on our servers.
People harp on about logic, and maths. Thing is the game is highly illogical in its whole makeup. Trying to apply logic to the illogical is pointless in my eyes. What makes it fun is what counts, not what makes it logical. If people find it fun how it is, then that's what matters to them. Logic doesn't make the game fun for alot of people, no matter how much math and evidence you throw at them, however right it may be on paper, they simply like the game the way it is, they played it for this long, and they're happy with it.
I won't go on about it for pages on end, it's just my opinion.
We ran the fix for close to a year, I liked it, as I hate nubjetters. However the overwhelming opinion was to remove it at the time. People found the usual system more fun.
You can't tell people what they find fun, they tell you what's fun to them. No amount of maths, evidence, logic can change that.
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| Re: Pointfix poll. Bug or Balance? [message #415774 is a reply to message #415758] |
Sun, 27 December 2009 22:12 |
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Altzan
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Registered: September 2008
Location: Tennessee
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General (1 Star) |
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| Jellybe4n wrote on Sun, 27 December 2009 19:42 |
I've stayed out of this, I don't mind either way about the fix on our servers.
People harp on about logic, and maths. Thing is the game is highly illogical in its whole makeup. Trying to apply logic to the illogical is pointless in my eyes. What makes it fun is what counts, not what makes it logical. If people find it fun how it is, then that's what matters to them. Logic doesn't make the game fun for alot of people, no matter how much math and evidence you throw at them, however right it may be on paper, they simply like the game the way it is, they played it for this long, and they're happy with it.
I won't go on about it for pages on end, it's just my opinion.
We ran the fix for close to a year, I liked it, as I hate nubjetters. However the overwhelming opinion was to remove it at the time. People found the usual system more fun.
You can't tell people what they find fun, they tell you what's fun to them. No amount of maths, evidence, logic can change that.
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^Fits my opinion of pointsfix almost perfectly.
I cannot imagine how the clockwork of the universe can exist without a clockmaker. ~Voltaire
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| Re: Pointfix poll. Bug or Balance? [message #415778 is a reply to message #415758] |
Sun, 27 December 2009 22:18 |
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Starbuzzz
Messages: 1637
Registered: June 2008
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General (1 Star) |
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| Jellybe4n wrote on Sun, 27 December 2009 19:42 |
People harp on about logic, and maths. Thing is the game is highly illogical in its whole makeup. Trying to apply logic to the illogical is pointless in my eyes.
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I know these are your opinions mate but I duuno about those Jelly...!
If the game was illogical, then City Fly will have no buildings and you join and spawn under the bridge and get in one of the many free vehicles parked there on the highway and just drive around in circles and shoot the tiberium drums under the bridge to see neat green explosions! A neat illogical system that doesn't need logic applied to it!
But instead we have balanced factions in Nod and GDI, different maps with different tactics to apply to them, a credit based economic system that is tied to tiberium harvesting, classes of infantry with specific costs and uses, assorted vehicles with distinct firepower for unique purposes, and buildings that serve highly specialized roles within a base = ALL of these game features are tied to a mode called Command & Conquer Mode in which 2 teams try to coordinate themselves to destroy each other and win each round by basekill, points, or ped beacon. So the game is highly logical in "its whole makeup" with many complex factors. So the point about trying to apply logic to the illogical doesn't seem to stand.
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| Re: Pointfix poll. Bug or Balance? [message #415784 is a reply to message #415778] |
Sun, 27 December 2009 23:50 |
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Altzan
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The game's makeup is very logical. That doesn't mean the game mechanics ned to be nitpicked to death in the name of logical accuracy.
I cannot imagine how the clockwork of the universe can exist without a clockmaker. ~Voltaire
[Updated on: Sun, 27 December 2009 23:52] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Pointfix poll. Bug or Balance? [message #415787 is a reply to message #415784] |
Mon, 28 December 2009 00:49 |
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GEORGE ZIMMER
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| Altzan wrote on Mon, 28 December 2009 00:50 |
The game's makeup is very logical. That doesn't mean the game mechanics ned to be nitpicked to death in the name of logical accuracy.
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No, but when you gain an advantage through an unintentional bit of coding (which it's been proven it is), then it becomes a problem- hence, it's a BUG.
There's really no arguing it, it's been proven in so many ways it's a bug. It really comes down to whether or not you think it should stay- hence, the 57454864789 pointsfix topics.
Toggle Spoiler| Scrin wrote on Sat, 24 January 2009 13:22 |
| cAmpa wrote on Sat, 24 January 2009 12:45 |
Scrin, stop pming people to get the building bars.
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FUCK YOU AND THIS SHIT GAME WITH YOUR SCRIPTS!!! I HAVE ASKING YOU AND ANOTHER NOOBS HERE ABOUT HELP WITH THAT BUILDING ICONS FEATURES FOR YEARS, BUT YOU KEEP IGNORING ME AND KEEP WRITE SHIT, SO BURN YOU AND YOUR ASSLICKERS FRIENDS, THIS TIME I'M NOT COME BACK!!!!!!!!!   
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| Re: Pointfix poll. Bug or Balance? [message #415789 is a reply to message #415758] |
Mon, 28 December 2009 01:04 |
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Spoony
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General (3 Stars)
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| Jellybe4n wrote on Sun, 27 December 2009 19:42 |
I've stayed out of this, I don't mind either way about the fix on our servers.
People harp on about logic, and maths. Thing is the game is highly illogical in its whole makeup. Trying to apply logic to the illogical is pointless in my eyes. What makes it fun is what counts, not what makes it logical. If people find it fun how it is, then that's what matters to them. Logic doesn't make the game fun for alot of people, no matter how much math and evidence you throw at them, however right it may be on paper, they simply like the game the way it is, they played it for this long, and they're happy with it.
I won't go on about it for pages on end, it's just my opinion.
We ran the fix for close to a year, I liked it, as I hate nubjetters. However the overwhelming opinion was to remove it at the time. People found the usual system more fun.
You can't tell people what they find fun, they tell you what's fun to them. No amount of maths, evidence, logic can change that.
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there are two problems with this, as relating to the way the jelly community participated in the debates.
firstly, at the beginning of the debates, the only argument they put forward was "that's not a bug". that was literally the be-all and end-all of their case, the only thing they thought it necessary to say. it wasn't until that was overwhelmingly refuted that they completely changed their tune to "it doesn't matter if it's a bug"
stop and think about that for a moment.
it's like the anti-war movement at the beginning of the iraq war debate. the most common argument they put forward was: you can't invade iraq, as soon as you set foot across the border saddam will massacre our boys with WMDs. (there's no way i can be the only person who remembers this). now it's: we shouldn't have invaded because he never had WMDs, you should've listened to us!
when the anti-pointsfix crowd thought they had the facts about whether it's a bug or not on their side, it was a debate-stopping argument in their eyes. as soon as it turned out they DIDN'T have the facts on their side, it became totally irrelevant.
secondly, you must have remembered the HUGE number of posts complaining about individual score from "pointwhores". the most obviously example is bllybobb. if you remember, he said it was a GOOD thing that the wrong team won a lot of the time with the points bug, because it made the game "exhilarating". however, you may also remember he started a thread outraged at the fact someone on his team, who'd been helpfully hammering the shit out of the enemy base with an art, had a higher score than him. plenty of other people made similar whinges. again, they were trying to make "logical" points then, saying: he shouldn't have a higher score than me.
bottom line is, every time you see someone on the anti-pointsfix crowd say that things like "logic" and "balance" etc etc etc don't matter, you can usually go back a few months to a situation when they said it was absolutely crucial.
| Altzan wrote |
The game's makeup is very logical. That doesn't mean the game mechanics ned to be nitpicked to death in the name of logical accuracy.
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you don't need to "nitpick" the points system "to death" to see what an absolutely huge flaw there is, getting points for no reason. and please don't try to reduct the entire pro-pointsfix debate to "in the name of logical accuracy". sure it's more logical, it's also "in the name of" balance, fairness, making sense, being accessible to new players etc etc etc etc etc
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
- noun
1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful
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| Re: Pointfix poll. Bug or Balance? [message #415835 is a reply to message #415778] |
Mon, 28 December 2009 05:20 |
Jellybe4n
Messages: 409
Registered: August 2004
Karma: 0
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Commander |
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| pawkyfox wrote on Mon, 28 December 2009 00:18 |
| Jellybe4n wrote on Sun, 27 December 2009 19:42 |
People harp on about logic, and maths. Thing is the game is highly illogical in its whole makeup. Trying to apply logic to the illogical is pointless in my eyes.
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I know these are your opinions mate but I duuno about those Jelly...!
If the game was illogical, then City Fly will have no buildings and you join and spawn under the bridge and get in one of the many free vehicles parked there on the highway and just drive around in circles and shoot the tiberium drums under the bridge to see neat green explosions! A neat illogical system that doesn't need logic applied to it!
But instead we have balanced factions in Nod and GDI, different maps with different tactics to apply to them, a credit based economic system that is tied to tiberium harvesting, classes of infantry with specific costs and uses, assorted vehicles with distinct firepower for unique purposes, and buildings that serve highly specialized roles within a base = ALL of these game features are tied to a mode called Command & Conquer Mode in which 2 teams try to coordinate themselves to destroy each other and win each round by basekill, points, or ped beacon. So the game is highly logical in "its whole makeup" with many complex factors. So the point about trying to apply logic to the illogical doesn't seem to stand.
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Four headshots to kill someone? Run over 5 proxy mines to kill someone? That's the kind of logic I am talking about.
And what you did is exactly what I'm talking about, throw out some info that may well be spot on, but it isn't what made the game fun for 8 years.
Some people love the game the way it is.
I appreciate you trying to over analyze my post though, it shows how hard people are trying to push the idea down peoples throat.
For the record I never wanted to remove the fix, so you're preaching to the converted here, you can't win or lose the argument over the fix with me.
My point is you can't tell people what to like, no matter how many facts and statistics you throw at them, they like it the way it is.
When people go out to buy a car, they look at the figures for alot of cars, but they don't all settle on the same ones people like different things. No matter how much buying one car makes much more sense than the others, people don't always choose the same thing.
Like I said, you can't tell people what they like.
[Updated on: Mon, 28 December 2009 05:21] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Pointfix poll. Bug or Balance? [message #415837 is a reply to message #415835] |
Mon, 28 December 2009 05:46 |
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GEORGE ZIMMER
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| Jellybe4n wrote on Mon, 28 December 2009 07:20 |
And what you did is exactly what I'm talking about, throw out some info that may well be spot on, but it isn't what made the game fun for 8 years.
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You're right, shooting harvesters with a ramjet is what makes Renegade fun.
Toggle Spoiler| Scrin wrote on Sat, 24 January 2009 13:22 |
| cAmpa wrote on Sat, 24 January 2009 12:45 |
Scrin, stop pming people to get the building bars.
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FUCK YOU AND THIS SHIT GAME WITH YOUR SCRIPTS!!! I HAVE ASKING YOU AND ANOTHER NOOBS HERE ABOUT HELP WITH THAT BUILDING ICONS FEATURES FOR YEARS, BUT YOU KEEP IGNORING ME AND KEEP WRITE SHIT, SO BURN YOU AND YOUR ASSLICKERS FRIENDS, THIS TIME I'M NOT COME BACK!!!!!!!!!
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| Re: Pointfix poll. Bug or Balance? [message #415932 is a reply to message #414480] |
Mon, 28 December 2009 12:47 |
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Goztow
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Location: Belgium
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General (5 Stars)
Goztoe |
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I can agree with Jelly somewhat, so the real question is: why do we get a 11 page thread just because I write the word pointsfix down? Think about it...
You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
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| Re: Pointfix poll. Bug or Balance? [message #415933 is a reply to message #415932] |
Mon, 28 December 2009 12:50 |
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GEORGE ZIMMER
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Registered: March 2006
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General (2 Stars) |
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| goztow wrote on Mon, 28 December 2009 13:47 |
I can agree with Jelly somewhat, so the real question is: why do we get a 11 page thread just because I write the word pointsfix down? Think about it...
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Pro-pointsfix people want a logical, bug-free game
Anti-pointsfix people want an easier way to make money because they see easy as fun
that's why.
Also, this topic kinda serves no purpose- it's been shown numerous times that it's a bug.
Toggle Spoiler| Scrin wrote on Sat, 24 January 2009 13:22 |
| cAmpa wrote on Sat, 24 January 2009 12:45 |
Scrin, stop pming people to get the building bars.
|
FUCK YOU AND THIS SHIT GAME WITH YOUR SCRIPTS!!! I HAVE ASKING YOU AND ANOTHER NOOBS HERE ABOUT HELP WITH THAT BUILDING ICONS FEATURES FOR YEARS, BUT YOU KEEP IGNORING ME AND KEEP WRITE SHIT, SO BURN YOU AND YOUR ASSLICKERS FRIENDS, THIS TIME I'M NOT COME BACK!!!!!!!!!
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[Updated on: Mon, 28 December 2009 12:51] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Pointfix poll. Bug or Balance? [message #415935 is a reply to message #415933] |
Mon, 28 December 2009 12:53 |
Jellybe4n
Messages: 409
Registered: August 2004
Karma: 0
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Commander |
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| GEORGE ZIMMER wrote on Mon, 28 December 2009 14:50 |
| goztow wrote on Mon, 28 December 2009 13:47 |
I can agree with Jelly somewhat, so the real question is: why do we get a 11 page thread just because I write the word pointsfix down? Think about it...
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Pro-pointsfix people want a logical, bug-free game
Anti-pointsfix people want an easier way to make money because they see easy as fun
that's why.
Also, this topic kinda serves no purpose- it's been shown numerous times that it's a bug.
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Or, they like the way the game's been for over 7 years, hence the reason they still play it. I don't see that as a reason to talk down to people, even if you do.
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| Re: Pointfix poll. Bug or Balance? [message #415940 is a reply to message #415937] |
Mon, 28 December 2009 13:01 |
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Spoony
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Registered: January 2006
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Tactics & Strategies Moderator |
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oh, there's nothing wrong with the "we prefer it this way" point, but it must be pointed out that a GREAT MANY people of the "we don't care if it's a bug" crowd were very insistent that "it's not a bug, case closed" when they thought they had the facts on their side.
i really don't think people are entitled to forget saying stuff like this.
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
- noun
1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful
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| Re: Pointfix poll. Bug or Balance? [message #415962 is a reply to message #414480] |
Mon, 28 December 2009 14:03 |
Jellybe4n
Messages: 409
Registered: August 2004
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As long as people are free to say, I don't like it, I don't care why, I prefer the game as it's been for 7 years and not be talked down to.
Even if people tried to defend it with reason, and were proved wrong, they're still entitled to their opinion.
I didn't tell people who play my servers what to like. I put the fix on, tried it for well over 6 months, and as much as I preferred it, public opinion was the opposite, massively.
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| Re: Pointfix poll. Bug or Balance? [message #416014 is a reply to message #415789] |
Tue, 29 December 2009 00:46 |
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Altzan
Messages: 1586
Registered: September 2008
Location: Tennessee
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| Spoony wrote on Mon, 28 December 2009 02:04 |
you don't need to "nitpick" the points system "to death" to see what an absolutely huge flaw there is, getting points for no reason. and please don't try to reduct the entire pro-pointsfix debate to "in the name of logical accuracy". sure it's more logical, it's also "in the name of" balance, fairness, making sense, being accessible to new players etc etc etc etc etc
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Two different logics we're confusing here. The game's logical form of realism is one thing, and the logical setup of gameplay (point distribution/earning a big part of that) is another.
While I do not support editing a game excessively to make it more realistic (not happening here), I do support fixing a bug that people like exploiting because getting points from shooting harvs is not very game-mechanic logical at all.
I cannot imagine how the clockwork of the universe can exist without a clockmaker. ~Voltaire
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