Home » General Discussions » Heated Discussions and Debates » Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plead guilty :(
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| Re: Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plead guilty :( [message #414873 is a reply to message #414870] |
Mon, 21 December 2009 13:58   |
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Goztow
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| ELiT3FLyR wrote on Mon, 21 December 2009 21:41 |
well duh i mean patches are obviously as good as arts so u deserve the same amount of points for killing them.
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They cost as much, so they're of the same worth. One is just choosen left often than the other.
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| Re: Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plead guilty :( [message #414902 is a reply to message #414870] |
Mon, 21 December 2009 21:21 |
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Spoony
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| ELiT3FLyR wrote on Mon, 21 December 2009 14:41 |
well duh i mean patches are obviously as good as arts so u deserve the same amount of points for killing them.
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you've already lost this part of the argument several times in the space of one thread, not to mention several times in previous threads. if you aren't gonna even read what the person you're arguing with is saying, nor ever concede it when you're wrong (as has happened an enormous number of times) then there is absolutely no point debating with you at all.
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| Re: Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plead guilty :( [message #414904 is a reply to message #414864] |
Mon, 21 December 2009 22:14 |
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Spoony
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| Nune wrote on Mon, 21 December 2009 14:59 |
the cummunity doesn't chose pointsfix, it accepts something that it has no power to change.
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uh, what? each community will have the choice between the original renegade points system or your point mod. this is TT's policy, and mine, although plenty of people on the pointbug side have spoken vehemently against it, such as simpee.
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p.s you get more points for splashing a hotty down to half than you get for hitting a med 5 times with a arty, makes sense...
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arty shooting a med = about 5 points per shot
taking a hotwire down to half = well, total kill points = 35, 17 of which is damaging her to nearly dead, so about 8/9. let's say 9.
so 9 is more than 25, is it? pay more attention in maths class tbh.
but, you wanna talk about X getting more points than Y not making sense? fine, let's talk about that.
with your point mod, the one you want me to use in clanwars: a gdi soldier unloading all its ammo against a stealth tank (or five soldiers unloading one clip each) gets about 400 points despite doing about 80 damage to it, barely more than a single med tank shell.
400 points, eh?
- more than disarming a nuke
- more than half as much as killing a building
- the same as killing 4 havocs
- about the same as killing 8 light tanks
shall i go on? another example? med shooting a building that's being repaired, and a sakura shooting the med. the overall point gain by the sakura is MORE THAN THE MED IS EARNING.
perhaps you can explain how these "make sense" in the point mod you are advocating. that's a challenge btw, either answer these questions or admit you can't answer them. and if you can't, then don't be too surprised when i don't want to use your point mod in a league that's supposed to be based on fairness and balance.
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[Updated on: Tue, 22 December 2009 00:08] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plead guilty :( [message #414955 is a reply to message #414909] |
Tue, 22 December 2009 11:11 |
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Spoony
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like i said to simpee the first time he brought this up... if he wants to argue that various infantry are too expensive or tanks are too cheap, by all means let's have that debate. but don't go saying that the solution to this "problem" (simpee asserts that it's a problem by fiat, of course) is to let people get points for absolutely no reason.
btw quick prediction: neither simpee or nunega will be able to respond to my last post, but they won't be able to bring themselves to concede they were wrong again, so what they'll do is not post in this thread again and bring up the same subject in another post several weeks or months from now making the same points that have already been disproven.
history repeats itself yet again.
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| Re: Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plead guilty :( [message #414968 is a reply to message #414965] |
Tue, 22 December 2009 12:37 |
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Spoony
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| surth? / surth! wrote on Tue, 22 December 2009 13:16 |
not trying to make much of a point here since i agree with the pointsfix - but you could say that people get points for actions that dont do any damage precisly because they dont do any damage. a shooter shooting a rushing flamer is a person not repairing/helping to kill the flamer.
Still wouldnt make a lot of sense though.
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it wouldn't make any sense at all. indeed it simply discourages people from real tactics, like trying to kill them with a grenadier/engi (or least to push them back), or fix your buildings or a friendly vehicle.
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| Re: Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plead guilty :( [message #414989 is a reply to message #414971] |
Tue, 22 December 2009 14:34 |
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Spoony
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| surth? / surth! wrote on Tue, 22 December 2009 13:52 |
it would add another tactic, which is getting points but not doing damage or repairing a building.
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k, let's allow b2b because it "adds another tactic", albeit one that is completely bullshit, unfair and teaches people stupid habits.
| surth? / surth! wrote on Tue, 22 December 2009 13:52 |
about nobody ever showing you an example of your writing style being hostile: I dont have to show you. The mere fact that a lot of people think so makes it a viable argument.
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that's COMPLETE bullshit.
for example: everyone's always crying about "pointwhoring". i often challenge this nonsense, and the people crying always, always lose the argument... but they never change their minds. everything they say is always wrong, but they all still think so... that's a viable argument?
the anti-pointsfix crowd has lost every single pointsfix debate, usually very very badly, and yet many people still like their bugged point mod.
i frequently made the challenge i made to you: either tell me exactly what is wrong with my debate style. if you can't, then quite frankly you owe me an apology and you're not the only one. like everybody else i made this challenge to, you completely failed and like everybody else, you still didn't have the decency to withdraw your statements.
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| Re: Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plead guilty :( [message #414995 is a reply to message #414989] |
Tue, 22 December 2009 15:07 |
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Herr Surth
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| Spoony wrote on Tue, 22 December 2009 15:34 |
| surth? / surth! wrote on Tue, 22 December 2009 13:52 |
it would add another tactic, which is getting points but not doing damage or repairing a building.
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k, let's allow b2b because it "adds another tactic", albeit one that is completely bullshit, unfair and teaches people stupid habits.
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true enough.
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| surth? / surth! wrote on Tue, 22 December 2009 13:52 |
about nobody ever showing you an example of your writing style being hostile: I dont have to show you. The mere fact that a lot of people think so makes it a viable argument.
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that's COMPLETE bullshit.
for example: everyone's always crying about "pointwhoring". i often challenge this nonsense, and the people crying always, always lose the argument... but they never change their minds. everything they say is always wrong, but they all still think so... that's a viable argument?
the anti-pointsfix crowd has lost every single pointsfix debate, usually very very badly, and yet many people still like their bugged point mod.
i frequently made the challenge i made to you: either tell me exactly what is wrong with my debate style. if you can't, then quite frankly you owe me an apology and you're not the only one. like everybody else i made this challenge to, you completely failed and like everybody else, you still didn't have the decency to withdraw your statements.
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That example also doesnt work. There ARE people who would support pointsfix if it werent for your aggressive debating style. thats all there is to it. They dont need to provide you a specific thing that is wrong with your style. You're debating this topic to convince people of your opinion -> people would agree with you if it werent for your tone -> You're not accomplishing what you want.
I'll try anyway. Imagine talking about something with a friend of yours in rl. And imagine you go louder from time to time and exclaim "PROVEN YOU WRONG AGAIN AND AGAIN" or call him indecent because he wont agree with you. or saying "COMPLETE BULLSHIT!" in a serious voice.
[Updated on: Tue, 22 December 2009 15:08] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plead guilty :( [message #414996 is a reply to message #413512] |
Tue, 22 December 2009 15:20 |
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GEORGE ZIMMER
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I do agree Spoony can be aggressive, but when you're in a situation where you're preventing factual arguments against someone, and they spew out some retarded nonsense, yes, you're going to be a little aggressive.
Basically, like this:
http://legorobotcomics.com/comics/14.jpg
Toggle Spoiler| Scrin wrote on Sat, 24 January 2009 13:22 |
| cAmpa wrote on Sat, 24 January 2009 12:45 |
Scrin, stop pming people to get the building bars.
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FUCK YOU AND THIS SHIT GAME WITH YOUR SCRIPTS!!! I HAVE ASKING YOU AND ANOTHER NOOBS HERE ABOUT HELP WITH THAT BUILDING ICONS FEATURES FOR YEARS, BUT YOU KEEP IGNORING ME AND KEEP WRITE SHIT, SO BURN YOU AND YOUR ASSLICKERS FRIENDS, THIS TIME I'M NOT COME BACK!!!!!!!!!   
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| Re: Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plead guilty :( [message #414999 is a reply to message #414995] |
Tue, 22 December 2009 15:36 |
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Spoony
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| surth? / surth! wrote on Tue, 22 December 2009 16:07 |
That example also doesnt work. There ARE people who would support pointsfix if it werent for your aggressive debating style. thats all there is to it. They dont need to provide you a specific thing that is wrong with your style. You're debating this topic to convince people of your opinion -> people would agree with you if it werent for your tone -> You're not accomplishing what you want.
I'll try anyway. Imagine talking about something with a friend of yours in rl. And imagine you go louder from time to time and exclaim "PROVEN YOU WRONG AGAIN AND AGAIN" or call him indecent because he wont agree with you. or saying "COMPLETE BULLSHIT!" in a serious voice.
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flaw in this logic is, when the very worst has been said about my debating style (even though you still haven't successfully argued that there's anything wrong with it at all), you have an extraordinary list of appalling offences committed by the anti-pointsfix crowd. if there was any truth behind your point, then they would have been put off the points bug thanks to the unbelievable behaviour of its advocates. they aren't, which is why you know they're lying, and it's just an excuse.
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[Updated on: Tue, 22 December 2009 15:36] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plead guilty :( [message #415001 is a reply to message #414999] |
Tue, 22 December 2009 15:41 |
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Herr Surth
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| Spoony wrote on Tue, 22 December 2009 16:36 |
| surth? / surth! wrote on Tue, 22 December 2009 16:07 |
That example also doesnt work. There ARE people who would support pointsfix if it werent for your aggressive debating style. thats all there is to it. They dont need to provide you a specific thing that is wrong with your style. You're debating this topic to convince people of your opinion -> people would agree with you if it werent for your tone -> You're not accomplishing what you want.
I'll try anyway. Imagine talking about something with a friend of yours in rl. And imagine you go louder from time to time and exclaim "PROVEN YOU WRONG AGAIN AND AGAIN" or call him indecent because he wont agree with you. or saying "COMPLETE BULLSHIT!" in a serious voice.
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flaw in this logic is, when the very worst has been said about my debating style (even though you still haven't successfully argued that there's anything wrong with it at all)
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Again, try imagining what the stuff you write would sound like when you'd be arguing with a friend about a film. 
Look, its not something you can put a finger on like "no simpee, it makes more sense that you get 1/10 the points for killing somethign that it costs than a totally random number". it just puts people off.
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, you have an extraordinary list of appalling offences committed by the anti-pointsfix crowd.
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what was clearsh0ts business btw, since you mentioned him from time to time too? curious.
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if there was any truth behind your point, then they would have been put off the points bug. they aren't, which is why you know they're lying, and it's just an excuse.
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its easy to oversee their posts since they are usually short and consist out of nothing more than "LOL SPOONY YOURRE SO MAAD". Your posts, on the other hand... are a bit harder to overlook 
but of course there may be a few who'll take any excuse they can get to not change their mind, i agree with that.
random excuse #45: its way too late for me to make any sense at all.
[Updated on: Tue, 22 December 2009 15:42] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plead guilty :( [message #415018 is a reply to message #413512] |
Tue, 22 December 2009 19:17 |
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Crimson
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It seems to me that some of you carebears are attacking Spoony's "debate style" to justify the fact that you prefer to play with what should be consider an exploit of a bug in the game. Using PTs from outside, B2B, strafing/flickering with a sniper scoped, and shooting the harvester for big points and little/no damage should all be under the same category. You're exploiting a bug in the game for personal gain, and for more points and money than you're entitled.
Exploiting the bugged points system's weaker parts (shooting any tanks for no damage) makes you a cheater as far as I'm concerned.
Spoony's debate style has nothing to do with it. There are plenty of aggressive debaters on the pro-bug side at multiple levels of retardation. Why don't those people cause others to change their mind to pro-fix?
Have a little self-respect and debate on the merits you believe the bugged points system has rather than attacking one of MANY people who either support the fix or are equally content playing on either system?
I'm the bawss.
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| Re: Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plead guilty :( [message #415051 is a reply to message #415033] |
Tue, 22 December 2009 23:39 |
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Spoony
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| ELiT3FLyR wrote on Tue, 22 December 2009 22:04 |
i dont know what debate uve been reading crimmy, but were not the ones calling u pro fixers liars and all the rest of it everrytime someone posts something
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no, just every time you idiots lie about something, and you can't participate in a single pointsfix debate without doing it, it seems. but yeah, the problem is that you're always lying to try to get what you want, the problem is i catch you every time and make you look stupid in front of everybody.
you anywhere nearer that apology for what you and clear did on the jelly forums?
btw i've got a challenge for you. see if you can break a habit of a lifetime. simpee, from this point on, try following these principles when debating the pointsfix (or just about everything)
- don't say anything that isn't true
- if you get caught doing something bad, don't act like it's the other person's fault for catching
- read everything the person you're arguing with is saying. respond to it if you can, concede the point if you can't
if you did that then maybe anyone here might consider your posts worth even reading... up till now it's pretty clear nobody does. i seem to be the only person who thinks it's worth trying to tell you where you keep going wrong, for your own benefit of course.
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[Updated on: Tue, 22 December 2009 23:49] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plead guilty :( [message #415052 is a reply to message #415018] |
Tue, 22 December 2009 23:46 |
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Spoony
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| Crimson wrote on Tue, 22 December 2009 20:17 |
Spoony's debate style has nothing to do with it. There are plenty of aggressive debaters on the pro-bug side at multiple levels of retardation. Why don't those people cause others to change their mind to pro-fix?
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i've been saying that for a while now.
some of the stuff the pointsbug crowd have done in these debates has scarcely been believable. many of its advocates have been caught doing some really fucked up stuff to get what they want... endlessly lying to the community and hoping they won't get caught (most obvious examples: simpee, roni, clearshot, mikey), rigging polls, insulting anyone who dares to logically explain why the pointsfix is good for the game, saying stuff like "i'm better at the game than you so i obviously know more, case closed" (usually to people who are running intellectual circles round them at the time), constantly ignoring what the person they're arguing with is saying... and best of all, what happened at clanwars a couple years back.
people say: omg if spoony wasnt so mean to us we might like the pointsfix! it's not hard to see through this nonsense. the very worst you can say about my debate style clearly isn't very bad, (since nobody can successfully explain what's wrong with it despite innumerable challenges). compare that to the staggeringly awful behaviour from my opponents. you'd think THAT might put people off the point mod THEY are advocating, even if you needed any more "putting off" than the fact they can't explain why their point mod makes sense. just look at the question i asked nunega and simpee at the top of this page; did anyone expect them to be able to answer it? of course not, the game's been out nearly eight years, why would anyone suddenly figure THAT out?
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| Re: Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plead guilty :( [message #415054 is a reply to message #415052] |
Wed, 23 December 2009 00:12 |
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Spoony
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| Spoony wrote on Wed, 23 December 2009 00:46 |
you'd think THAT might put people off the point mod THEY are advocating, even if you needed any more "putting off" than the fact they can't explain why their point mod makes sense. just look at the question i asked nunega and simpee at the top of this page; did anyone expect them to be able to answer it? of course not, the game's been out nearly eight years, why would anyone suddenly figure THAT out?
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this is probably a good point for a declaration. from somebody who runs a league using the original renegade points system. i expect other servers using it might find it helpful too. when i get people asking me to use the points bug instead, or if people say the same at n00bstories / thekoss2 servers whatever, feel free to link to this too.
here we go. i'll put it all in nice red letters.
I'm not the only one with any explaining to do. The pointsfix is not the only "mod" that affects points; the pointsbug is basically a modification too, a mod that lets you get points for no reason etc. Indeed, since it's been conclusively proven that the pointsfix is the original Renegade points and economy system, the points bug is MORE of a modification than the "pointsfix" is. So it's not just the advocates of the pointsfix who have any explaining to do.
So here's a few questions for anyone who wants to tell me I should use their point mod.
1. please explain to me why it makes any kind of sense? because i've looked at it from all the angles and i simply don't see why it makes sense that you should get points for no reason, or more points than you're deserving.
2a. when you've answered 1, please explain why your answer should NOT apply to tanks when they have red/yellow health.
2b. when you've answered 1, please explain why your answer should NOT apply to infantry or structures.
3. please explain to me how it is good for balance, in a game where points are important, that unhelpful things can get far more points reward than far more helpful strategies? for example, there's an APC/tank threatening your base... why should your mod encourage people to shoot it ineffectually like an idiot, instead of doing something far more helpful like trying to kill it/push it back, maintain your buildings, or fix a teammate's tank?
4. please explain to me why defensive play ought to trump offensive play on maps like field, cityfly etc?
5. please explain to me why you don't mind maps like field, under and wallsfly being very stacked in favour of gdi?
6. in a game where the economy system is clearly important, please explain to me why you shouldn't have to EARN your credits instead of getting them for no good reason?
7. most of all, please explain to me how you came to the conclusion that your point mod is a good idea at all?
anyone telling me i ought to use their point mod in my servers, the mod that allows you to get points for absolutely no reason (which is far more of a "modification" than the pointsfix could ever be) - come back to me when you can answer these questions. If you can't answer any of them then don't waste your time, and don't show me any polls either (you're just showing me 20 people who can't answer any of these questions. it would be more effective in changing my mind to show me one person who can)
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[Updated on: Wed, 23 December 2009 00:14] Report message to a moderator |
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