Home » General Discussions » Heated Discussions and Debates » Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plead guilty :(
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| Re: Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plaid guilty :( [message #414697 is a reply to message #414685] |
Sun, 20 December 2009 11:06   |
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HaTe
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| ELiT3FLyR wrote on Sun, 20 December 2009 11:48 |
haha ur going to put me on ignore when the last page and a half has been you writing essays about me and me saying... nothing. try putting urself on ignore, im sure ud be much better off because of it
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QFT
You say you don't understand me Spoony, is that because of the logic possibly "Buddy"? Don't talk to me like you are my friend, just because you think you are so high and mighty over the internet. Sarcasm over the internet is rather...pathetic in your case. I have read all your posts, and read every word of them (i don't know why, they were a complete waist of time), but you are Mr. Zimmer's posts have actually convinced me to change my mind about the matter, that's a total of 1 person, in all the pointsfix topics. I now am an anti-pointsfix person, thank you.
You my friend, are one convincing person, you should be awfully proud.
‘All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing’ - Edmund Burke
[Updated on: Sun, 20 December 2009 11:07] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plaid guilty :( [message #414699 is a reply to message #414686] |
Sun, 20 December 2009 11:07 |
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Spoony
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| simpee wrote |
haha ur going to put me on ignore when the last page and a half has been you writing essays about me and me saying... nothing.
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good argument, you knew you couldn't respond to anything i said so you didn't try to... i suppose you think you've scored a point there?
let me give you some more advice, don't be so condescending to people just because they don't play clanwars. it doesn't mean they can't be right, and it certainly doesn't mean you can't be wrong. this thread's evidence of that.
| surth? / surth! wrote on Sun, 20 December 2009 18:48 |
| Spoony wrote on Sun, 20 December 2009 11:23 |
Ah, so it's italics you object to, is it? I'm still not really getting it.
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How does it say a lot? Its like youre saying im a malevolent dishonest person without any integrity or sense of honesty - dramatically speaking -, just because i happened to debate with you instead of with simpee.
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i approve of this; you're making some attempt to refute my statement instead of just saying i should have said it in a less hostile manner!
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Yeah, like when George Zimmer did that and Simpee said "LOLO FFAG ROFL" and then continued being batshit insane. They will never, ever, ever get the message.
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see, you say he's "batshit insane", and i agree with that, but you must understand: i had no idea you thought that. you should have said so, for my benefit and for simpee's.
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calling the way you react to any of simpees post "placing emphasis" would be an understatement, but you may not be aware of this. its hard to properly see ones own writing style.
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if it is, it's even harder to understand your criticism of it. you lose me more and more with each post trying to elaborate.
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its not a lot considering how many people are put off by all of these tedious debates in return. like this one. which is why im gonna stop after this post.
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ok, thanks for your input. especially "batshit insane", i enjoyed that.
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| Re: Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plaid guilty :( [message #414704 is a reply to message #414697] |
Sun, 20 December 2009 11:14 |
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Spoony
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| HaTe wrote on Sun, 20 December 2009 12:06 |
You say you don't understand me Spoony, is that because of the logic possibly "Buddy"? Don't talk to me like you are my friend, just because you think you are so high and mighty over the internet. Sarcasm over the internet is rather...pathetic in your case. I have read all your posts, and read every word of them (i don't know why, they were a complete waist of time), but you are Mr. Zimmer's posts have actually convinced me to change my mind about the matter, that's a total of 1 person, in all the pointsfix topics. I now am an anti-pointsfix person, thank you.
You my friend, are one convincing person, you should be awfully proud.
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blah blah blah
summary: you made a whole lot of statements in criticism of the pointsfix, you were proven wrong about almost all of them (it's all on page four). nothing bad about that in itself, there's no shame in being wrong or admitting to being wrong... but you go and make an egotistical fool of yourself by acting like me (and zimmer) actually did something amiss by pointing out you were wrong about so many things. sorry, but if you can't handle being wrong, don't join a debate. it's like joining a server and then crying when the enemy shoots you.
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Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
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| Re: Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plaid guilty :( [message #414707 is a reply to message #414665] |
Sun, 20 December 2009 11:33 |
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EvilWhiteDragon
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| surth? / surth! wrote on Sun, 20 December 2009 16:07 |
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| surth? / surth! wrote on Sun, 20 December 2009 08:05 |
You're not doing yourself a favour.
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that's right. i'm doing EWD a favour.
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im sure he appreciates it.
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Well, actually I think that in the case that Spoony illustrates it would actually help the pointfixcamp to just ignore the retards. Arguing/fighting is useless if you can't convince your opponent. Simpee apparently just stubbornly refuses to reason. Well that should be ok, just don't lower yourself to their level by getting personal. If one just reads the countless threads about it then either he/she will understand the use of the pointfix or hate you Spoony.
Hell, I actually dislike the pointfix debate precisely because of your style of posting. Hell, how many times have you now told everyone that Simpee is lying? If they care, they got it by now or never will.
Edit:
Oh, btw, HaTe supports my point. People start to see you as the pointfix. Which is NOT a good thing as you created enough enemies already. It would be much better to see Crimson, StealthEye, TT or BlackIntel as the 'image' of the pointfix. Due to your style or reasoning, either people will join you, or will start fighting back. When they start fighting back, it basically means that the pointfix camp has lost (again).
I dare you to just read this post, tell me whether you understand what I'm saying/trying to say and not challange it any further. I don't need you to agree with me, I just want you to think about this.
BlackIntel admin/founder/PR dude (not a coder)
Please visit http://www.blackintel.org/
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[Updated on: Sun, 20 December 2009 11:38] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plaid guilty :( [message #414710 is a reply to message #414699] |
Sun, 20 December 2009 11:42 |
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Herr Surth
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calling the way you react to any of simpees post "placing emphasis" would be an understatement, but you may not be aware of this. its hard to properly see ones own writing style.
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if it is, it's even harder to understand your criticism of it. you lose me more and more with each post trying to elaborate.
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thats pretty much the reason i stopped debating this. im unable to get my point across due to limitations of the english language, my ineloquence, and, i suppose, the limited capability of human communication in general.
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its not a lot considering how many people are put off by all of these tedious debates in return. like this one. which is why im gonna stop after this post.
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ok, thanks for your input. especially "batshit insane", i enjoyed that.
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variations include Bat Fuck Insane and Ape-Shit Crazy
[Updated on: Sun, 20 December 2009 11:43] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plaid guilty :( [message #414748 is a reply to message #414722] |
Sun, 20 December 2009 15:55 |
kadoosh
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| HaTe wrote on Sun, 20 December 2009 15:07 |
I still don't see how i was proven wrong, as i posted opinions, which can't be proved wrong, only facts can. All we did was exchange opinions, mind explaining how i was "proven" wrong?
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I'm not saying you are right or wrong. Just let it go...You will get nowhere.
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| Re: Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plaid guilty :( [message #414749 is a reply to message #414722] |
Sun, 20 December 2009 16:04 |
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GEORGE ZIMMER
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| HaTe wrote on Sun, 20 December 2009 22:07 |
I still don't see how i was proven wrong, as i posted opinions, which can't be proved wrong, only facts can. All we did was exchange opinions, mind explaining how i was "proven" wrong?
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Person 1: God is right.
Person 2: I don't believe so.
Person 1: I do.
Person 2: I don't because _____
Person 1: I was just stating my opinions, you cannot prove me wrong. Therefore, I am not wrong.
Saying "it's just an opinion!" isn't a "Get out of factual argument free" card, dumbass. Especially in the way you argued it.
Toggle Spoiler| Scrin wrote on Sat, 24 January 2009 13:22 |
| cAmpa wrote on Sat, 24 January 2009 12:45 |
Scrin, stop pming people to get the building bars.
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FUCK YOU AND THIS SHIT GAME WITH YOUR SCRIPTS!!! I HAVE ASKING YOU AND ANOTHER NOOBS HERE ABOUT HELP WITH THAT BUILDING ICONS FEATURES FOR YEARS, BUT YOU KEEP IGNORING ME AND KEEP WRITE SHIT, SO BURN YOU AND YOUR ASSLICKERS FRIENDS, THIS TIME I'M NOT COME BACK!!!!!!!!!   
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[Updated on: Sun, 20 December 2009 16:05] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plaid guilty :( [message #414754 is a reply to message #414749] |
Sun, 20 December 2009 16:22 |
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HaTe
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Person 1: I was just stating my opinions, you cannot prove me wrong. Therefore, I am not wrong.
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Unless the evidence is clearly proving an opinion wrong, which clearly that is not the case here, or there would be no argument. You may think that your logic is obvious, but you are not alone in that.
But hell, there are still people who think the world is flat, though all of the evidence out there proving it is round. There are still those people who won't change their minds. This is not the case though, as there is not enough evidence it IS a bug to convince many people. If it was a bug, why would this many people object to the change of it? No1/little people objected to all of the other changes by scripts and core patches, why would so many people go through the trouble to argue this case? Even if it was 100% proven a bug, there also would still be those people who object to playing with the pointsfix, just because of the changes. That's how it is when it comes straight down to it, and people won't change their opinions very often at all, just by reading arguments, compared to seeing facts. There are some facts, just not enough for many people, plain and simple.
‘All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing’ - Edmund Burke
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| Re: Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plaid guilty :( [message #414755 is a reply to message #414754] |
Sun, 20 December 2009 16:29 |
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EvilWhiteDragon
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| HaTe wrote on Mon, 21 December 2009 00:22 |
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Person 1: I was just stating my opinions, you cannot prove me wrong. Therefore, I am not wrong.
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Unless the evidence is clearly proving an opinion wrong, which clearly that is not the case here, or there would be no argument. You may think that your logic is obvious, but you are not alone in that.
But hell, there are still people who think the world is flat, though all of the evidence out there proving it is round. There are still those people who won't change their minds. This is not the case though, as there is not enough evidence it IS a bug to convince many people. If it was a bug, why would this many people object to the change of it? No1/little people objected to all of the other changes by scripts and core patches, why would so many people go through the trouble to argue this case? Even if it was 100% proven a bug, there also would still be those people who object to playing with the pointsfix, just because of the changes. That's how it is when it comes straight down to it, and people won't change their opinions very often at all, just by reading arguments, compared to seeing facts. There are some facts, just not enough for many people, plain and simple.
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I think it is fair to say that the pointbug is obviously a bug. One would not multiply x by something only to detract it right afterwards (that is the most factual reason why the pointfix is wrong, besides it being inconsistent).
What you may or may not agree to is whether it improves gameplay or not.
BlackIntel admin/founder/PR dude (not a coder)
Please visit http://www.blackintel.org/
| V, V for Vendetta |
People should not be afraid of their governments.
Governments should be afraid of their people.
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| Re: Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plaid guilty :( [message #414770 is a reply to message #414755] |
Sun, 20 December 2009 18:29 |
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HaTe
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| EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Sun, 20 December 2009 17:29 |
| HaTe wrote on Mon, 21 December 2009 00:22 |
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Person 1: I was just stating my opinions, you cannot prove me wrong. Therefore, I am not wrong.
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Unless the evidence is clearly proving an opinion wrong, which clearly that is not the case here, or there would be no argument. You may think that your logic is obvious, but you are not alone in that.
But hell, there are still people who think the world is flat, though all of the evidence out there proving it is round. There are still those people who won't change their minds. This is not the case though, as there is not enough evidence it IS a bug to convince many people. If it was a bug, why would this many people object to the change of it? No1/little people objected to all of the other changes by scripts and core patches, why would so many people go through the trouble to argue this case? Even if it was 100% proven a bug, there also would still be those people who object to playing with the pointsfix, just because of the changes. That's how it is when it comes straight down to it, and people won't change their opinions very often at all, just by reading arguments, compared to seeing facts. There are some facts, just not enough for many people, plain and simple.
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I think it is fair to say that the pointbug is obviously a bug. One would not multiply x by something only to detract it right afterwards (that is the most factual reason why the pointfix is wrong, besides it being inconsistent).
What you may or may not agree to is whether it improves gameplay or not.
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I don't deny that it it's not a bug, but i also believe that gameplay is better with it in. I like anything that will improve gameplay, and in my opinion, the pointsfix will hurt it more than improve it. That's just me though, adjusting to something i don't feel needed is something i will do, but i would also prefer not to do. Call that anti-pointsfix if you want, but in the end, it's just an opinion.
I also believe you said the edit in your post on the top of the page very well. Spoony tends to turn things in to a "for or against" situation very easily, especially when people are undecided, they may either see his logic, and go with him, or see that he is mocking everyone with his posts at the same time, and oppose him.
‘All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing’ - Edmund Burke
[Updated on: Sun, 20 December 2009 18:30] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plaid guilty :( [message #414781 is a reply to message #414770] |
Sun, 20 December 2009 20:34 |
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EvilWhiteDragon
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| HaTe wrote on Mon, 21 December 2009 02:29 |
| EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Sun, 20 December 2009 17:29 |
| HaTe wrote on Mon, 21 December 2009 00:22 |
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Person 1: I was just stating my opinions, you cannot prove me wrong. Therefore, I am not wrong.
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Unless the evidence is clearly proving an opinion wrong, which clearly that is not the case here, or there would be no argument. You may think that your logic is obvious, but you are not alone in that.
But hell, there are still people who think the world is flat, though all of the evidence out there proving it is round. There are still those people who won't change their minds. This is not the case though, as there is not enough evidence it IS a bug to convince many people. If it was a bug, why would this many people object to the change of it? No1/little people objected to all of the other changes by scripts and core patches, why would so many people go through the trouble to argue this case? Even if it was 100% proven a bug, there also would still be those people who object to playing with the pointsfix, just because of the changes. That's how it is when it comes straight down to it, and people won't change their opinions very often at all, just by reading arguments, compared to seeing facts. There are some facts, just not enough for many people, plain and simple.
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I think it is fair to say that the pointbug is obviously a bug. One would not multiply x by something only to detract it right afterwards (that is the most factual reason why the pointfix is wrong, besides it being inconsistent).
What you may or may not agree to is whether it improves gameplay or not.
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I don't deny that it it's not a bug, but i also believe that gameplay is better with it in. I like anything that will improve gameplay, and in my opinion, the pointsfix will hurt it more than improve it. That's just me though, adjusting to something i don't feel needed is something i will do, but i would also prefer not to do. Call that anti-pointsfix if you want, but in the end, it's just an opinion.
I also believe you said the edit in your post on the top of the page very well. Spoony tends to turn things in to a "for or against" situation very easily, especially when people are undecided, they may either see his logic, and go with him, or see that he is mocking everyone with his posts at the same time, and oppose him.
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OK, now were getting somewhere.
You're saying that it hurts gameplay in your oppinion, why? I'm curious what hurts gameplay more than harvsniping 
BlackIntel admin/founder/PR dude (not a coder)
Please visit http://www.blackintel.org/
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People should not be afraid of their governments.
Governments should be afraid of their people.
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| Re: Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plaid guilty :( [message #414794 is a reply to message #414707] |
Sun, 20 December 2009 22:15 |
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Spoony
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| EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Sun, 20 December 2009 12:33 |
Arguing/fighting is useless if you can't convince your opponent. Simpee apparently just stubbornly refuses to reason. Well that should be ok, just don't lower yourself to their level by getting personal. If one just reads the countless threads about it then either he/she will understand the use of the pointfix or hate you Spoony.
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i'm actually embarrassed for you reading this, ewd.
simpee lies to the community again and again and again, rigs several polls and lies about the results, actively sabotages a community who chose to use the pointsfix, tells me i can't use it in my own community (so much for individual choice) in the clanwars ladder, tells people NOBODY should use it... and when i don't stand for any of this bullshit, you tell me not to lower myself to his level? what the FUCK is wrong with you? read what you are saying. you should be deeply ashamed of what you just posted.
and if people read these threads and end up "hating" me just because i don't put up with behaviour as unbelievably pathetic as simpee's, then i'm glad they hate me. if somebody thinks the problem is not what simpee's doing but the fact i'm resisting it, i don't want that kind of idiot on my side. if anything, the fact i seem to be annoying these morons makes me think i'm doing something right.
if you are not annoyed by someone endlessly lying to the community, actively sabotaging anyone who wants to use the original renegade points system etc... but you ARE annoyed by someone who will not stand for this, then thanks for showing us your priorities. i am glad i now know this about you.
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Hell, I actually dislike the pointfix debate precisely because of your style of posting. Hell, how many times have you now told everyone that Simpee is lying? If they care, they got it by now or never will.
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and if they don't care, but they care about the fact i'm saying so, i do not value their opinions.
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Oh, btw, HaTe supports my point. People start to see you as the pointfix. Which is NOT a good thing as you created enough enemies already. It would be much better to see Crimson, StealthEye, TT or BlackIntel as the 'image' of the pointfix. Due to your style or reasoning, either people will join you, or will start fighting back. When they start fighting back, it basically means that the pointfix camp has lost (again).
I dare you to just read this post, tell me whether you understand what I'm saying/trying to say and not challange it any further. I don't need you to agree with me, I just want you to think about this.
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and i'd like YOU to think about what a COMPLETE moron you've just made yourself look. i'm not joking here, i am literally embarrassed for you reading what you said.
| Surth wrote |
thats pretty much the reason i stopped debating this. im unable to get my point across due to limitations of the english language, my ineloquence, and, i suppose, the limited capability of human communication in general.
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it's always the way. people like you always say there's something terribly wrong with the way i debate. i always make a point of asking exactly what that is, and they never ever can, and there's always some excuse for it.
| HaTe wrote |
I still don't see how i was proven wrong, as i posted opinions, which can't be proved wrong, only facts can. All we did was exchange opinions, mind explaining how i was "proven" wrong?
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tbh, if you read page four and don't think you were proven wrong numerous times, you aren't looking very hard.
don't get me wrong here; there's absolutely no shame about being wrong in a debate, even as many times as you. the only shame comes when you react violently, and act like the other person did something unfair in proving you wrong. i'm saying this for your own benefit.
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But hell, there are still people who think the world is flat, though all of the evidence out there proving it is round. There are still those people who won't change their minds. This is not the case though, as there is not enough evidence it IS a bug to convince many people. If it was a bug, why would this many people object to the change of it? No1/little people objected to all of the other changes by scripts and core patches, why would so many people go through the trouble to argue this case? Even if it was 100% proven a bug, there also would still be those people who object to playing with the pointsfix, just because of the changes. That's how it is when it comes straight down to it, and people won't change their opinions very often at all, just by reading arguments, compared to seeing facts. There are some facts, just not enough for many people, plain and simple.
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you're asking pointless questions now.
read my first reply in chewml's thread. it might open your eyes to the way your fellows on the anti-pointsfix crowd have acted from the very beginning of this debate. of course, it's hardly the worst thing they've done...
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[Updated on: Mon, 21 December 2009 00:31] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plead guilty :( [message #414811 is a reply to message #413512] |
Mon, 21 December 2009 01:13 |
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Crimson
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I don't see why it matters who is the "face" of the points fix. I was an active participant in the debates two and a half years ago when a few servers started balance testing it. I compiled all of our facts, figures and results to create the long announcement post that should be REQUIRED READING for all debate participants. (Otherwise, surely you can not be a Master Debater)
I did my best to conclusively prove that:
1) this was, in fact, a bug and not intended by Westwood developers
2) Improves gameplay by removing nonsense tactics
3) Results in the correct winner of a match decided by points, as categorized by more "field" presence, map control, aggression, buildings damaged/destroyed
4) Gives a better newbie experience because they aren't berated for seemingly proper activities such as repairing a building or saving up and buying the most expensive tank
If the pro-pointsbug people can't see that, I'm not sure what else we can do.
I'm the bawss.
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| Re: Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plead guilty :( [message #414816 is a reply to message #414811] |
Mon, 21 December 2009 03:01 |
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Spoony
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| Crimson wrote on Mon, 21 December 2009 02:13 |
1) this was, in fact, a bug and not intended by Westwood developers
2) Improves gameplay by removing nonsense tactics
3) Results in the correct winner of a match decided by points, as categorized by more "field" presence, map control, aggression, buildings damaged/destroyed
4) Gives a better newbie experience because they aren't berated for seemingly proper activities such as repairing a building or saving up and buying the most expensive tank
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i'd like to elaborate on 4. there's a much better reason why the original renegade points system is a "better newbie experience" than the modification known as the "point bug". people are aware of it but they're looking at it upside down.
people say they have to "adapt" to the pointsfix. no, they had to adapt to the point bug in the first place. i think i'm a pretty careful and thoughtful player with a good grasp of the game, and yet i'd been playing maybe a year before i knew about the ramjet bullshit.
if the points bug never existed, then everyone would get used to the points system very very easily, because it's perfectly simple and makes sense... the more damage you do against more important targets, the more points you get. instead people have had to pick up on all the ridiculous small print about snipers, auto rifles, APCs, orca machineguns, letting the WF die etc etc etc...
people like hate are complaining about having to "adapt". no, you've just got to "unadapt", unlearn all the amazingly stupid bad habits that the points bug taught you, which is A LOT easier than learning them all in the first place.
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[Updated on: Mon, 21 December 2009 03:02] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plead guilty :( [message #414817 is a reply to message #414811] |
Mon, 21 December 2009 04:37 |
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EvilWhiteDragon
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| Crimson wrote on Mon, 21 December 2009 09:13 |
I don't see why it matters who is the "face" of the points fix. I was an active participant in the debates two and a half years ago when a few servers started balance testing it. I compiled all of our facts, figures and results to create the long announcement post that should be REQUIRED READING for all debate participants. (Otherwise, surely you can not be a Master Debater)
I did my best to conclusively prove that:
1) this was, in fact, a bug and not intended by Westwood developers
2) Improves gameplay by removing nonsense tactics
3) Results in the correct winner of a match decided by points, as categorized by more "field" presence, map control, aggression, buildings damaged/destroyed
4) Gives a better newbie experience because they aren't berated for seemingly proper activities such as repairing a building or saving up and buying the most expensive tank
If the pro-pointsbug people can't see that, I'm not sure what else we can do.
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That was basically my point to Spoony, we can argue with them, but if they don't care/don't listen to our arguments then that's pretty much a waste of time. The topics about this die much quicker if we would just ignore the people that are just here to troll.
Don't feed the trolls
Edit:
Crimson, PM?
BlackIntel admin/founder/PR dude (not a coder)
Please visit http://www.blackintel.org/
| V, V for Vendetta |
People should not be afraid of their governments.
Governments should be afraid of their people.
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[Updated on: Mon, 21 December 2009 04:42] Report message to a moderator |
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