Home » General Discussions » Heated Discussions and Debates » Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plead guilty :(
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| Re: Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plaid guilty :( [message #414445 is a reply to message #414435] |
Fri, 18 December 2009 13:54   |
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HaTe
Messages: 923
Registered: August 2007
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that's just downright stupid.
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Why is that? The infantry can't do anything but get points, and hopefully lay a c4 on the tank...if you take away the points, what good are light infantry against armored tanks at all? Some people enjoy not sitting in a tank all game, so the infantry part has to come in play somewhere. Getting points for an infantry unit shooting an armored tank is no need for a whole discussion....
Or say there is a tank limit, and someone does not want to sit and repair a tank all game, getting points is still necessary for the win in many cases. Or if a team only has the bar or hon left, and they need credits, against a team that has tanks...it's only fair that they get them by actually shooting the tanks. Sure, maybe the pointsfix is making the gameplay better, in that teams go for the win by destruction, instead of time limit more, but it also takes some of the fun out of it for many people.
Seriously, just one post with you explaining something without quoting to get your point across would be nice. You try and make all opposing look like idiots by proving them wrong with quotes in my opinion, and are not helping your cause.
‘All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing’ - Edmund Burke
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| Re: Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plaid guilty :( [message #414448 is a reply to message #414445] |
Fri, 18 December 2009 14:19 |
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GEORGE ZIMMER
Messages: 2605
Registered: March 2006
Karma: 0
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General (2 Stars) |
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| HaTe wrote on Fri, 18 December 2009 14:54 |
Why is that? The infantry can't do anything but get points,
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Black hand LCG, Engineer, Technician/Hotwire, Gunner, PIC Sydney/Raveshaw, and some others would like to have a word with you.
| HaTe wrote on Fri, 18 December 2009 14:54 |
what good are light infantry against armored tanks at all?
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LIGHT INFANTRY ARE NOT MEANT TO BE USED AGAINST TANKS.
The ONLY reason people use them against tanks is because of pointsbug. With pointsfix, I guarantee there will be more anti-tank infantry on the field rather than some asshole shooting at your full health mammoth getting ridiculous amount of points doing absolutely nothing. OH NO HE CAN'T KILL THE TANK!!1 no shit sherlock, that's why you have the plethora of anti-tank infantry for that.
| HaTe wrote on Fri, 18 December 2009 14:54 |
Some people enjoy not sitting in a tank all game, so the infantry part has to come in play somewhere.
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Anti-infantry units are, guess what- I know this might be hard to wrap your head around, but bear with me- USED TO FIGHT INFANTRY, NOT TANKS.. Once more, if you want anti-tank, GET AN ANTI TANK INFANTRY UNIT. If you want both, GET AN LCG/SBH/SOME SEMBLANCE OF SKILL.
| HaTe wrote on Fri, 18 December 2009 14:54 |
Getting points for an infantry unit shooting an armored tank is no need for a whole discussion....
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When it causes several members of your team to unfairly get points for doing absolutely nothing worthwhile except getting points and money, yes it is. That's a huge balance issue.
| HaTe wrote on Fri, 18 December 2009 14:54 |
Or say there is a tank limit, and someone does not want to sit and repair a tank all game,
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Once again, ANTI TANK INFANTRY. GDI even has a FREE anti tank unit. Oh, it's too hard to use? Stop sucking so hard, then.
| HaTe wrote on Fri, 18 December 2009 14:54 |
getting points is still necessary for the win in many cases. Or if a team only has the bar or hon left, and they need credits, against a team that has tanks...it's only fair that they get them by actually shooting the tanks.
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Fair enough, you need points to win. So you should get them by not only losing a vital structure, but also by abusing a game bug (which, time and time again, has been proven to be a bug)? OR, do it the LOGICAL WAY, and fight them off with ANTI TANK UNITS WHICH WERE PUT IN FOR A REASON. I can't believe I have to state the same point so many times, but it seems pretty necessary here since you can't seem to understand that there are infact ways to legitimately get points off of tanks and, hey, ACTUALLY DAMAGE THEM! Boohoo, so you're not getting RIDICULOUS AMOUNTS of points. That's called being better than the other team to win in that situation, then. Oh, you're not better? Then why the HELL should you win?
| HaTe wrote on Fri, 18 December 2009 14:54 |
Sure, maybe the pointsfix is making the gameplay better, in that teams go for the win by destruction, instead of time limit more, but it also takes some of the fun out of it for many people.
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Because fending off another team against the odds using nothing but damn good skill and earning more points by a slim amount is clearly very boring and it happens all the time, compared to sitting there shooting tanks all day knowing you'll win by points.
| HaTe wrote on Fri, 18 December 2009 14:54 |
Seriously, just one post with you explaining something without quoting to get your point across would be nice. You try and make all opposing look like idiots by proving them wrong with quotes in my opinion, and are not helping your cause.
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It's called "arguing your opponent's points". I've come to respect Spoony for that,and attempt to do the same myself. If you don't like your points being proven wrong, maybe you should reconsider what the fuck you're arguing.
Toggle Spoiler| Scrin wrote on Sat, 24 January 2009 13:22 |
| cAmpa wrote on Sat, 24 January 2009 12:45 |
Scrin, stop pming people to get the building bars.
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FUCK YOU AND THIS SHIT GAME WITH YOUR SCRIPTS!!! I HAVE ASKING YOU AND ANOTHER NOOBS HERE ABOUT HELP WITH THAT BUILDING ICONS FEATURES FOR YEARS, BUT YOU KEEP IGNORING ME AND KEEP WRITE SHIT, SO BURN YOU AND YOUR ASSLICKERS FRIENDS, THIS TIME I'M NOT COME BACK!!!!!!!!!   
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| Re: Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plaid guilty :( [message #414452 is a reply to message #414450] |
Fri, 18 December 2009 15:40 |
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HaTe
Messages: 923
Registered: August 2007
Karma: 0
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| Quote: |
Black hand LCG, Engineer, Technician/Hotwire, Gunner, PIC Sydney/Raveshaw, and some others would like to have a word with you.
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Obviously i meant light infantry, the ones getting the points discussed in the pointsfix.
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LIGHT INFANTRY ARE NOT MEANT TO BE USED AGAINST TANKS.
The ONLY reason people use them against tanks is because of pointsbug. With pointsfix, I guarantee there will be more anti-tank infantry on the field rather than some asshole shooting at your full health mammoth getting ridiculous amount of points doing absolutely nothing. OH NO HE CAN'T KILL THE TANK!!1 no shit sherlock, that's why you have the plethora of anti-tank infantry for that.
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But if they need to be, for credits, they can be useful. Also, for defense, a tank is shooting at you on under, you obviously have no chance of killing it if you are say, a soldier vs a med tank @ full life. The least the soldier can do is get points for defending himself.
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Anti-infantry units are, guess what- I know this might be hard to wrap your head around, but bear with me- USED TO FIGHT INFANTRY, NOT TANKS.. Once more, if you want anti-tank, GET AN ANTI TANK INFANTRY UNIT. If you want both, GET AN LCG/SBH/SOME SEMBLANCE OF SKILL.
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Insulting a person over the internet give a little eboner eh? Okay then. Once again, it's a credit issue, if you do not have credits, and no ref, GUESS WHAT!? You shoot tanks with light infantry, that's how it is done, it will be much harder to gain credits with the "pointsfix" in. "Sigh" at people attacking me, when i have already said i see both sides, really shows who is on the more defensive side here, with all of my opinions, some for, some against, i am yet to get flamed by an anti - pointsfix person...why so defensive?
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When it causes several members of your team to unfairly get points for doing absolutely nothing worthwhile except getting points and money, yes it is. That's a huge balance issue.
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The bold words really contradict yourself...except points and money? Isn't that what the whole issue is about, getting points and money? It is not unfair at all, as both teams can do it, and both get credits and points for doing so. It isn't a balance issue, it's just that people can't stand that other people get points and mvp's for shooting tanks with infantry, while they are doing something "worthwhile" by being in a tank. But isn't getting points for your team still "worthwhile" if the game ends by time limit?
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Once again, ANTI TANK INFANTRY. GDI even has a FREE anti tank unit. Oh, it's too hard to use? Stop sucking so hard, then.
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You have never played with me, assuming i suck just on my renegade beliefs is rather...judgmental, no? I happen to be a pretty good player, thanks.
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Fair enough, you need points to win. So you should get them by not only losing a vital structure, but also by abusing a game bug (which, time and time again, has been proven to be a bug)? OR, do it the LOGICAL WAY, and fight them off with ANTI TANK UNITS WHICH WERE PUT IN FOR A REASON. I can't believe I have to state the same point so many times, but it seems pretty necessary here since you can't seem to understand that there are infact ways to legitimately get points off of tanks and, hey, ACTUALLY DAMAGE THEM! Boohoo, so you're not getting RIDICULOUS AMOUNTS of points. That's called being better than the other team to win in that situation, then. Oh, you're not better? Then why the HELL should you win?
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Apparently, if they win, they are better, no matter how they do so. Ped wins are still in many servers, it takes no extra skill to ped nuke/ion to win, why not argue this case?
A game bug you say? I'm pretty sure if this was indeed a "bug" it'd be fixed WELL before this, or do you think that everyone has overlooked this? In that case, you are mistaken.
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Because fending off another team against the odds using nothing but damn good skill and earning more points by a slim amount is clearly very boring and it happens all the time, compared to sitting there shooting tanks all day knowing you'll win by points.
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Who says you have to do it all game? Is there a rule I'm missing? If you can't get by light infantry with heavy tanks to win the game, then you don't deserve to win.
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It's called "arguing your opponent's points". I've come to respect Spoony for that,and attempt to do the same myself. If you don't like your points being proven wrong, maybe you should reconsider what the fuck you're arguing.
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Get off his wood, along with all the other high authorities on the forums, it's pathetic mate.
Sad part is, I wasn't arguing, i was stating my point, before blatantly being attacked, defending myself is so BAD, isn't it?
I tried Spoony's way, it is effective, is it not? I am mocking him by doing so, and mocking you, do i win a cookie?
QUICK, reply and insult me, before anyone joins in on my side, god knows you all have nothing better to do.
‘All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing’ - Edmund Burke
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| Re: Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plaid guilty :( [message #414453 is a reply to message #414450] |
Fri, 18 December 2009 15:41 |
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GEORGE ZIMMER
Messages: 2605
Registered: March 2006
Karma: 0
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General (2 Stars) |
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| BlueThen wrote on Fri, 18 December 2009 16:05 |
I feel that people have completely disregarded my earlier comment.
Do you not realize that this is a perpetual argument, and will remain so until something here is actually put to test?
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True (for the perpetual argument part), but for the most part, you have to agree that the pointsfix, even if it has its downsides, is undoubtedly better than without it.
Besides that, pointsfix HAS been tested. So has pointsbug. Both have been tested, just not for every single server of Renegade. Pointsfix gets rid of retarded gameplay habits, while enforcing logical decisions (not having your WF being killed, using mammoth tanks more, using anti-tank infantry vs tanks rather than anti inf units).
Toggle Spoiler| Scrin wrote on Sat, 24 January 2009 13:22 |
| cAmpa wrote on Sat, 24 January 2009 12:45 |
Scrin, stop pming people to get the building bars.
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FUCK YOU AND THIS SHIT GAME WITH YOUR SCRIPTS!!! I HAVE ASKING YOU AND ANOTHER NOOBS HERE ABOUT HELP WITH THAT BUILDING ICONS FEATURES FOR YEARS, BUT YOU KEEP IGNORING ME AND KEEP WRITE SHIT, SO BURN YOU AND YOUR ASSLICKERS FRIENDS, THIS TIME I'M NOT COME BACK!!!!!!!!!
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[Updated on: Fri, 18 December 2009 15:42] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plaid guilty :( [message #414454 is a reply to message #414453] |
Fri, 18 December 2009 15:45 |
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HaTe
Messages: 923
Registered: August 2007
Karma: 0
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True (for the perpetual argument part), but for the most part, you have to agree that the pointsfix, even if it has its downsides, is undoubtedly better than without it.
. Pointsfix gets rid of retarded gameplay habits, while enforcing logical decisions (not having your WF being killed, using mammoth tanks more, using anti-tank infantry vs tanks rather than anti inf units).
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Opinions only, yours is no more superior than anyone elses last time i checked. I still am not FOR or AGAINST the pointsfix, i just think that if i need to adjust for something that won't make the game better, i don't see the point in it, but will still adjust to it (Being a since-release player, and a moderator).
‘All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing’ - Edmund Burke
[Updated on: Fri, 18 December 2009 16:06] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plaid guilty :( [message #414455 is a reply to message #414454] |
Fri, 18 December 2009 15:53 |
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BlueThen
Messages: 2402
Registered: February 2006
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General (2 Stars) |
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True (for the perpetual argument part), but for the most part, you have to agree that the pointsfix, even if it has its downsides, is undoubtedly better than without it.
. Pointsfix gets rid of retarded gameplay habits, while enforcing logical decisions (not having your WF being killed, using mammoth tanks more, using anti-tank infantry vs tanks rather than anti inf units).
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I implied that the pointsfix should be put to test in the field, have a clan war in it or something. We know it works, it's just a matter of finding out whether or not players would adjust or enjoy it.
Arguing is clearly not helping.
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| Re: Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plaid guilty :( [message #414456 is a reply to message #414455] |
Fri, 18 December 2009 15:57 |
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HaTe
Messages: 923
Registered: August 2007
Karma: 0
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| BlueThen wrote on Fri, 18 December 2009 16:53 |
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True (for the perpetual argument part), but for the most part, you have to agree that the pointsfix, even if it has its downsides, is undoubtedly better than without it.
. Pointsfix gets rid of retarded gameplay habits, while enforcing logical decisions (not having your WF being killed, using mammoth tanks more, using anti-tank infantry vs tanks rather than anti inf units).
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I implied that the pointsfix should be put to test in the field, have a clan war in it or something. We know it works, it's just a matter of finding out whether or not players would adjust or enjoy it.
Arguing is clearly not helping.
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I couldn't agree more, i didn't come here to argue by any means, but was dragged into it when i was randomly blindsided by both Spoony and Mr. Zimmer, when posting my opinion.
Testing is obviously the first logical movement.
I have heard several players say that if the pointsfix is added, they will not play clanwars. Do we all think that more players will start clanwarring, then those who are going to leave it, with the pointsfix added? I don't believe so, but I would like nothing more than to be proven wrong. The more players, the better. Clan war's are a big part of Renegade again, we don't want them to die down again. So test it, see if the player counts go up, go down, or stay the same (of course assuming that player counts are already dropping), and then go on from there. It's obviously the logical thing to do, I don't see many players, if any, quitting clan war's all together, if the pointsfix is determined to decrease clan war players, and removed after testing.
‘All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing’ - Edmund Burke
[Updated on: Fri, 18 December 2009 16:15] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plaid guilty :( [message #414457 is a reply to message #414452] |
Fri, 18 December 2009 16:21 |
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GEORGE ZIMMER
Messages: 2605
Registered: March 2006
Karma: 0
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General (2 Stars) |
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| HaTe wrote on Fri, 18 December 2009 16:40 |
Obviously i meant light infantry, the ones getting the points discussed in the pointsfix.
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If you read my next point, you'd see that this logic is retarded. Light infantry are not meant to be used against tanks. If they were, they would do damage to them.
| HaTe wrote on Fri, 18 December 2009 16:40 |
But if they need to be, for credits, they can be useful.
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Or they can help clear out infantry in tunnels. You know, being anti-infantry. Which is their purpose.
| HaTe wrote on Fri, 18 December 2009 16:40 |
Also, for defense, a tank is shooting at you on under, you obviously have no chance of killing it if you are say, a soldier vs a med tank @ full life. The least the soldier can do is get points for defending himself.
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Because clearly there's no such thing as other infantry. Yep, no such thing as grenadiers, flamethrowers, etc. ONLY light infantry. You clearly can't defend with anything else by running to a PT, right?
| HaTe wrote on Fri, 18 December 2009 16:40 |
Insulting a person over the internet give a little eboner eh? Okay then.
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Admittedly, that was a little out of line, but hot damn I don't see why you can't understand a simple concept of anti infantry are meant to kill infantry, anti tank are meant to kill tanks. Anti infantry SHOULD NOT get a shitton of points for dealing no damage.
| HaTe wrote on Fri, 18 December 2009 16:40 |
Once again, it's a credit issue, if you do not have credits, and no ref, GUESS WHAT!? You shoot tanks with light infantry, that's how it is done,
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Yes, that's how it's done, but that doesn't mean it's HOW IT SHOULD BE DONE. Back in the day it was acceptable to have blacks be slaves, because that's how it was done. Does that mean we should still have slaves? No, shit changes, and in this case, for the better. Boohoo, you have to change your tactics a little. But this way, it's way more logical and intended rather than using a stupid bug.
| HaTe wrote on Fri, 18 December 2009 16:40 |
it will be much harder to gain credits with the "pointsfix" in.
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Bullshit. I've gained plenty of credits WITHOUT abusing the pointsbug in games MANY times. How? By doing USEFUL things like repairing, being in tanks, getting anti-tank infantry, etc.
| HaTe wrote on Fri, 18 December 2009 16:40 |
"Sigh" at people attacking me, when i have already said i see both sides, really shows who is on the more defensive side here, with all of my opinions, some for, some against, i am yet to get flamed by an anti - pointsfix person...why so defensive?
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For one, I'm arguing your anti-pointsfix points. Whether you're for both is irrelevent (actually it's not because being for both is like being a nazi and a jew; you can't be both). I'm simply arguing against your points because 1: The anti-pointsfix crowd uses some of the (faulty) logic you've been using, and 2: what you're saying for anti-pointsfix generally is retarded.
Also, it's probably because you haven't posted much pro-pointsfix stuff... the anti-pointsfix crowd is more likely to jump on Spoony before anyone else (as they instantly did in this topic), so yeah. They tend to ignore most others.
| HaTe wrote on Fri, 18 December 2009 16:40 |
The bold words really contradict yourself...except points and money? Isn't that what the whole issue is about, getting points and money?
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I suppose I should have worded that better. What I meant was, they're doing nothing NORMALLY worthwhile. Outside of getting points and money for doing NOTHING EXCEPT THAT, they're doing... nothing, lol. Plus, it's bug abuse... plain and simple. Once again, it IS a bug. And abusing that to get points is not only wrong, but is retarded as hell.
| HaTe wrote on Fri, 18 December 2009 16:40 |
It is not unfair at all, as both teams can do it, and both get credits and points for doing so.
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True, except that not everyone even knows about it still. I'd rather fix the issue than go on some campaign telling every single Renegade player how to abuse the pointsbug. It's like if in Tiberian Sun, the only way to use Ghost Stalker would be to build 5 Carryalls. They're almost entirely unrelated to eachother, and not everyone would know about it. Sure, you may stumble across it by accident, but generally speaking, you wouldn't even notice it otherwise. Hell, even then, the pointsbug is harder to figure out how to get it to work than my example.
And before you go "LOL SEE SO ITS NOT EASY TO FIGURE OUT BLAHBLAHBLAH" or whatever, that's WORSE. A better example would be the only way to make credits in the original C&C would be to have to put in some random combination of letters together or some bullshit. It's fucking unnecessary, and only works for people who know about it, giving them an advantage over those who don't, and a false sense of superiority so they can claim they're pros.
| HaTe wrote on Fri, 18 December 2009 16:40 |
It isn't a balance issue,
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I guess we should give Havoc and Sakura ramjet rifles that insta-kill everything in one shot. Both can use it, so its balanced!1111.
| HaTe wrote on Fri, 18 December 2009 16:40 |
it's just that people can't stand that other people get points and mvp's for shooting tanks with infantry, while they are doing something "worthwhile" by being in a tank. But isn't getting points for your team still "worthwhile" if the game ends by time limit?
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I guess the government should make the only way to gain money IRL would be to chew on skunks. But they wouldn't tell you about it; you'd have to figure it out on your own. They still gain money, so it's definitely totally fine and needs no discussion, right?
| HaTe wrote on Fri, 18 December 2009 16:40 |
You have never played with me, assuming i suck just on my renegade beliefs is rather...judgmental, no? I happen to be a pretty good player, thanks.
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Then why not use anti-tank infantry for their purpose to gain points rather than rely on a retarded bug to get points/money?
| HaTe wrote on Fri, 18 December 2009 16:40 |
Apparently, if they win, they are better, no matter how they do so. Ped wins are still in many servers, it takes no extra skill to ped nuke/ion to win, why not argue this case?
A game bug you say? I'm pretty sure if this was indeed a "bug" it'd be fixed WELL before this, or do you think that everyone has overlooked this? In that case, you are mistaken.
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And if they put in my example of insta-kill Havocs and Sakura, any team that wins using them is totally fine, right? Nope, no balance issues whatsoever.
also, that logic of "If it's a bug, why wasn't it fixed before???" is utterly retarded as well... I shouldn't have to explain why.
| HaTe wrote on Fri, 18 December 2009 16:40 |
Who says you have to do it all game? Is there a rule I'm missing? If you can't get by light infantry with heavy tanks to win the game, then you don't deserve to win.
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For one, light inf don't give off near the points. They give like, 2 or something. Two, even if they die ALOT, they're getting WAY more points than the tanks are (see point 1). And then you have engineers sitting inside camping the MCT, getting additional points and ensuring that the team doesn't lose by base destruction. Then you still have the fact that the defending team can STILL TAKE OUT ENEMY TANKS just as they would with the pointsfix. So after they pointwhore the enemy's tanks, they can then take out some grenadiers or the like and kill the enemy tanks. If the assault fails, the defending team gets WAY MORE POINTS THAN NECESSARY.
That's just one example, of course. There's still the fact that even in field fights, a team that's starting to lose just has to have their vehicles die (or just not use them altogether), run out with some infantry, gain some easy points and money, and bam, they have more tanks than the offensive team. It's this kinda bullshit that messes with the balance.
Oh, and if you don't think the fact that the mammoth with pointsbug is practically useless because of how many points it gives off isn't a balance issue, you're DEFINITELY lacking some brain cells.
| HaTe wrote on Fri, 18 December 2009 16:40 |
Get off his wood, along with all the other high authorities on the forums, it's pathetic mate.
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hilarious. No, wait, immature and retarded is what I meant to say.
| HaTe wrote on Fri, 18 December 2009 16:40 |
Sad part is, I wasn't arguing, i was stating my point, before blatantly being attacked, defending myself is so BAD, isn't it?
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You were arguing against pointsfix AFAIK. Besides, stating your point invites arguing, deal with it.
| HaTe wrote on Fri, 18 December 2009 16:40 |
I tried Spoony's way, it is effective, is it not? I am mocking him by doing so, and mocking you, do i win a cookie?
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Except Spoony usually has some facts and logic when he does the multiquote business 
QUICK, reply and insult me, before anyone joins in on my side, god knows you all have nothing better to do.
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sure thing
Toggle Spoiler| Scrin wrote on Sat, 24 January 2009 13:22 |
| cAmpa wrote on Sat, 24 January 2009 12:45 |
Scrin, stop pming people to get the building bars.
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FUCK YOU AND THIS SHIT GAME WITH YOUR SCRIPTS!!! I HAVE ASKING YOU AND ANOTHER NOOBS HERE ABOUT HELP WITH THAT BUILDING ICONS FEATURES FOR YEARS, BUT YOU KEEP IGNORING ME AND KEEP WRITE SHIT, SO BURN YOU AND YOUR ASSLICKERS FRIENDS, THIS TIME I'M NOT COME BACK!!!!!!!!!
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| Re: Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plaid guilty :( [message #414458 is a reply to message #414457] |
Fri, 18 December 2009 16:38 |
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HaTe
Messages: 923
Registered: August 2007
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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Not even going to waist my time arguing with you, any person can see both the logic flaws, and the tripping on your own examples in your above post.
Thing is, with your sakura and havoc example, that is not FAIR, because of the fact that no other unit would be able to kill them easily, unlike a heavy tanks vs light infantry.
Also, bringing modernization into this by posting about slaves doesn't make much since to me at all, i at least saw your point in all of your other non-logic examples.
I wasn't being more anti-pointsfix at all, just said that if it is put in to Renegade, then the changes better be for the better, based on ALL of Renegade players, not just ones who happen to post on this forums. Yet you attack me by saying this, proving my point that the pro-pointsfix crowd is mainly all on the forums, attacking any anti-pointsfix people, while the anti-pointsfix people are not waisting their time with it, and are, well, actually playing the game (Not whining about what should be, could have been, and what we may or may not improve.)
Oops, i did argue just a little, i guess we are even. Wait, i didn't quote you once, i must be the loser here, eh? Please, use more sarcasm in a logical argument. Like i said, not even waisting my time with your other points, when most of them are so very....flawed in so many ways, that i don't feel i have to point them out, and feel that you already know how. If not, then you should clearly read into communism (Not much better than your slave example, i know).
Seems you have beaten me based on the fact that I could care less about what you say, as you are obviously emotionally attached to this whole pointsfix thing, and i could really care less. I've been posting more about what the general Renegade population (based on things i've seen while ease dropping in Renegade, and on irc) has to say, rather than my own opinion, due to me bringing up points that they would make, if they were actually in this argument.
Please, correct me in all my mistakes and everything, like i said, I'm not trying to argue, and could care less about this matter. It really shows how immature you are to be honest, to attack someone on something they see both sides on, it really makes people who post their opinions really want to join the anti side, no?
‘All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing’ - Edmund Burke
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| Re: Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plaid guilty :( [message #414463 is a reply to message #413512] |
Fri, 18 December 2009 17:45 |
ELiT3FLyR
Messages: 119
Registered: April 2008
Karma: 0
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Recruit |
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mr zimmer, uve never even played clanwars before so u dont know how it affects the game.
i said mesa would be ruined by pointfix and it was. i said field would be ruined and it wouldve been if not for the harv block rule that had to be added. the gameplay is slower because theres less money, u might aswell give up if u get a shitty start on city fly, and infantry now has no chance in an infantry vs tank game on rush maps.
but hey, atleast we can all rest easy in the fact that the nod shooter at the front of their base wont get any points he doesnt deserve as i role into his base with a mammy, right!?
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| Re: Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plaid guilty :( [message #414466 is a reply to message #414450] |
Fri, 18 December 2009 18:17 |
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Crimson
Messages: 7429
Registered: February 2003
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Karma: 0
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General (5 Stars)
ADMINISTRATOR |
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| BlueThen wrote on Fri, 18 December 2009 15:05 |
I feel that people have completely disregarded my earlier comment.
Do you not realize that this is a perpetual argument, and will remain so until something here is actually put to test?
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OK, um, I guess there are several people in this forum thread that do not realize that the n00bstories.com server has been running with the "pointsfix" aka the Westwood-intended points and economy system for about 2 and a half years. To say that it hasn't been tested in a real game environment is laughable.
I'm the bawss.
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| Re: Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plaid guilty :( [message #414473 is a reply to message #414452] |
Fri, 18 December 2009 18:52 |
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Spoony
Messages: 3915
Registered: January 2006
Karma: 0
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General (3 Stars)
Tactics & Strategies Moderator |
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| HaTe wrote |
Why is that? The infantry can't do anything but get points, and hopefully lay a c4 on the tank...if you take away the points, what good are light infantry against armored tanks at all?
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they're not supposed to be very good against heavy armoured tanks, otherwise what would be the point of buying weapons which ARE good against heavy armoured tanks? (rav/PIC, a tank of your own, gunner, LCG...) still, they are of some use as a last resort. engineers rushing an APC/tank can at least push it back and buy your team a bit of time, or you can fix your teammates or a vehicle... in other words, you can stop trying to get points for doing absolutely nothing, and do something useful instead because there's always, always something helpful you can be doing.
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Some people enjoy not sitting in a tank all game, so the infantry part has to come in play somewhere.
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rav/pics and havocs are still very worthwhile, lcgs+gunners+snipers have their uses, hotwires and techs are crucial... you don't need to get points for absolutely no reason for infantry to be helpful.
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Getting points for an infantry unit shooting an armored tank is no need for a whole discussion....
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yes it is, considering what a glaring balance issue it is.
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Or say there is a tank limit, and someone does not want to sit and repair a tank all game, getting points is still necessary for the win in many cases.
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so get a rav/pic/ramjet/gunner/lcg, since they're reasonably powerful and doing damage gets you points
or suck it up and heal your team's vehicles, what's your problem with doing that? it certainly helps the team.
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Or if a team only has the bar or hon left, and they need credits, against a team that has tanks...it's only fair that they get them by actually shooting the tanks.
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no it's not. they're achieving absolutely nothing, why should they get credits for it?
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You try and make all opposing look like idiots by proving them wrong with quotes in my opinion, and are not helping your cause.
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in a debate, proving people wrong doesn't help my case... uhhhh ok, this is another of those gems you only get from the renegade community, i think.
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Opinions only, yours is no more superior than anyone elses last time i checked.
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check again. not all opinions are equal. if person A has been right about everything he's said and person B has been wrong about everything he's said, their opinions are not equal. person B isn't necessarily you.
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Testing is obviously the first logical movement.
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see my reply to bluethen, it'll be a bit further down.
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I have heard several players say that if the pointsfix is added, they will not play clanwars. Do we all think that more players will start clanwarring, then those who are going to leave it, with the pointsfix added? I don't believe so, but I would like nothing more than to be proven wrong. The more players, the better. Clan war's are a big part of Renegade again, we don't want them to die down again. So test it, see if the player counts go up, go down, or stay the same (of course assuming that player counts are already dropping), and then go on from there. It's obviously the logical thing to do, I don't see many players, if any, quitting clan war's all together, if the pointsfix is determined to decrease clan war players, and removed after testing.
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you don't seem to be reading any of my posts.
the pointsfix has been fully implemented at clanwars.cc for the first time, starting at the beginning of november. guess what? last month was brilliant. very active, very competitive, and very balanced - every single game went to the team that deserved it. and this was in spite of the occasional ddos attack from halo idiots.
compare this to the entire year before november when i was away... people could have played as much as they like using the point mod, doesn't look like there was much activity then.
but, your argument is SOLELY about the number of people playing - nothing about fairness, nothing about balance. that's why i don't think your argument is worth very much. anyone who knows my style of league administration knows that i value fairness and balance, and if that causes a few idiots to leave, then it's not so much a price worth paying as it is a nice bonus.
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just said that if it is put in to Renegade, then the changes better be for the better, based on ALL of Renegade players, not just ones who happen to post on this forums.
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it'd have been nice if that happened with the points bug years ago, eh? see my hypothetical debate about the merits of the points bug (i.e. the complete lack of)
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Yet you attack me by saying this, proving my point that the pro-pointsfix crowd is mainly all on the forums, attacking any anti-pointsfix people
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ok buddy. the anti-pointsfix crowd have used the most despicable tactics IMAGINABLE, and yet i still go out of my way to engage them in debate.
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Also, for defense, a tank is shooting at you on under, you obviously have no chance of killing it if you are say, a soldier vs a med tank @ full life. The least the soldier can do is get points for defending himself.
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but he's not defending himself.
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Insulting a person over the internet give a little eboner eh? Okay then. Once again, it's a credit issue, if you do not have credits, and no ref, GUESS WHAT!? You shoot tanks with light infantry, that's how it is done
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no, there is always something more useful than that you can do.
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The bold words really contradict yourself...except points and money? Isn't that what the whole issue is about, getting points and money? It is not unfair at all, as both teams can do it, and both get credits and points for doing so.
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both teams can do it so it's fair... please. if both teams could base to base on islands, would you approve of that?
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It isn't a balance issue, it's just that people can't stand that other people get points and mvp's for shooting tanks with infantry, while they are doing something "worthwhile" by being in a tank.
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this just proves that -a- you have no idea of the way i play and what i do and don't find annoying, and -b- you haven't read any of my posts on the subject.
it is true that i object to people getting points for absolutely no reason - well done for noticing that - but you do a lot of damage to your assertion by putting the word "just" in there.
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But isn't getting points for your team still "worthwhile" if the game ends by time limit?
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if someone on your team base-to-based, would you approve of that? they're getting points for the team, right? that's all that matters?
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You have never played with me, assuming i suck just on my renegade beliefs is rather...judgmental, no? I happen to be a pretty good player, thanks.
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doesn't mean you can't be horribly wrong... just look at simpee.
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Apparently, if they win, they are better, no matter how they do so.
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this is only the case if the game is fair. the points bug is not fair. i earlier asked if winning is all that matters to you... seems like it is.
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A game bug you say? I'm pretty sure if this was indeed a "bug" it'd be fixed WELL before this, or do you think that everyone has overlooked this? In that case, you are mistaken.
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it's been conclusively proven that it's an unintended bug. CONCLUSIVELY proven.
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Who says you have to do it all game? Is there a rule I'm missing? If you can't get by light infantry with heavy tanks to win the game, then you don't deserve to win.
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that's a horrible argument. games are often quite close pointswise, and one or two players getting points for absolutely no reason with autorifles/ramjets is perfectly capable of swinging the win; it happens all the time.
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Get off his wood, along with all the other high authorities on the forums, it's pathetic mate.
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like i said to simpee... he agrees with me because he thinks i'm right, end of story. the only thing that's pathetic is when people like you try to look for ulterior motives to explain what he says.
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I tried Spoony's way, it is effective, is it not?
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no, you just used a lot of quotes. if you were really trying "spoony's way" you'd start by reading what i said and then responding to each point i make, and you clearly haven't done that.
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
- noun
1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful
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| Re: Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plaid guilty :( [message #414474 is a reply to message #413512] |
Fri, 18 December 2009 18:56 |
ELiT3FLyR
Messages: 119
Registered: April 2008
Karma: 0
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You argue these points like they would be good for the antipointfix cause... when really to someone with common sense it just makes you guys look like lazy fuckers who don't wanna played the game how it is supposed to be but still wanna win.
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figures someone from this forum would think that the fact i get a few points for shooting tanks with shooters outweighs all the facts above it.
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| Re: Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plaid guilty :( [message #414478 is a reply to message #414450] |
Fri, 18 December 2009 19:05 |
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Spoony
Messages: 3915
Registered: January 2006
Karma: 0
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General (3 Stars)
Tactics & Strategies Moderator |
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| BlueThen wrote on Fri, 18 December 2009 16:05 |
I feel that people have completely disregarded my earlier comment.
Do you not realize that this is a perpetual argument, and will remain so until something here is actually put to test?
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well, *i* feel that you completely disregarded my direct response to your earlier comment.
here's what i said.
of course you can't "instantly conclude" that, that's why i've insisted on a great deal of balance testing. as far as clanwars go, the results have been better than i'd hoped; all of my theories turned out to be absolutely right. every game on the new system has gone to the right clan; that was definitely NOT the case before. incidentally, quite a few people on the anti-pointsfix side have took their usual approach. during the initial testing they embarked on a campaign of lies, manipulation and sabotage to try to get it removed from the clanwar servers, then later lied to everybody and said they did test the full pointsfix (untrue).
i'd have loved to "skip all the politics" there, but the anti-pointsfix crowd had other ideas. still, they utterly failed, the pointsfix is where it should be and the clanwars league just had the best month it's had in years. result. still, if people still want to talk about the pointsfix being applied "democratically", then you're not entitled to forget what its opponents did during the testing period.
seems like i answered you quite extensively here? it's been a huge success in clanwars, in spite of despicable tactics from the anti-pointsfix brigade.
| simpee wrote |
mr zimmer, uve never even played clanwars before so u dont know how it affects the game.
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well, you've played a lot of clanwars, but that hasn't stopped you being absolutely dead wrong over and over and over and over and over again.
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i said mesa would be ruined by pointfix and it was.
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this is really dishonest of you, simpee. (again.) check my earlier posts; i conceded that WITHOUT THE MAP FIXED, mesa isn't so fair. i said right from the beginning that if you fix the deadzones it'll revolutionise the map... i was right.
but you keep harping on about mesa and you expose a lot about yourself when you do. you just said mesa's a better map than field? well, perhaps you can explain why nobody played it in clanwars before the pointsfix was used. nobody liked it until a few people decided it was a good anti-pointsfix argument, then suddenly it's their favourite map.
that's not all. field, wallsfly, under etc are much fairer with the pointsfix and no-harvblock, and you never even mentioned that while raving about mesa again and again and again... that's another reason why it's difficult to take you seriously. remember? i had to make a rule to stop people leaving when they got the bad side, because they always did - they pretended that wasn't why they were leaving, but it wasn't hard to see through that. that rule isn't even needed now.
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i said field would be ruined and it wouldve been if not for the harv block rule that had to be added.
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you've got a really dishonest way of arguing, you know that? "that had to be added"... it's a rule that ought to have been there for ages and i've been advocating it for a long time. promoting offensive play over defensive play, remember? i've been saying this for years. don't give me this "had to be added or field would be ruined" shit, it's unbelievably dishonest... or it would be coming from someone other than you.
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the gameplay is slower because theres less money
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gameplay is often not slower at all... see my reply to ss about other strats opening up.
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u might aswell give up if u get a shitty start on city fly
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no, because they get less of a lead by killing your harv...
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and infantry now has no chance in an infantry vs tank game on rush maps.
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and why did they have a "chance" before? because they got points they didn't deserve? don't post again until that has sunk in.
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but hey, atleast we can all rest easy in the fact that the nod shooter at the front of their base wont get any points he doesnt deserve as i role into his base with a mammy, right!?
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again, it's incredibly dishonest of you to reduce my very very extensive arguments on the subject like this. it doesn't help your case; indeed it does your case far more damage than you think. i'm actually doing you a favour here, remember - i said that if you and clearshot you carried on lying to the community to make me look bad (which you still haven't apologised for), i'd just cut you out of the debate altogether because your behaviour was unbelievably appalling. given several chances, you just carried on with your bullshit. and yet here i still am, engaging you in a debate... make no mistake, you don't deserve that from me.
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
- noun
1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful
[Updated on: Fri, 18 December 2009 19:08] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plaid guilty :( [message #414486 is a reply to message #414478] |
Fri, 18 December 2009 20:58 |
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BlueThen
Messages: 2402
Registered: February 2006
Karma: 0
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General (2 Stars) |
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| Spoony wrote on Fri, 18 December 2009 20:05 |
| BlueThen wrote on Fri, 18 December 2009 16:05 |
I feel that people have completely disregarded my earlier comment.
Do you not realize that this is a perpetual argument, and will remain so until something here is actually put to test?
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well, *i* feel that you completely disregarded my direct response to your earlier comment.
here's what i said.
of course you can't "instantly conclude" that, that's why i've insisted on a great deal of balance testing. as far as clanwars go, the results have been better than i'd hoped; all of my theories turned out to be absolutely right. every game on the new system has gone to the right clan; that was definitely NOT the case before. incidentally, quite a few people on the anti-pointsfix side have took their usual approach. during the initial testing they embarked on a campaign of lies, manipulation and sabotage to try to get it removed from the clanwar servers, then later lied to everybody and said they did test the full pointsfix (untrue).
i'd have loved to "skip all the politics" there, but the anti-pointsfix crowd had other ideas. still, they utterly failed, the pointsfix is where it should be and the clanwars league just had the best month it's had in years. result. still, if people still want to talk about the pointsfix being applied "democratically", then you're not entitled to forget what its opponents did during the testing period.
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I must've missed your response.
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| Re: Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plaid guilty :( [message #414487 is a reply to message #413512] |
Fri, 18 December 2009 21:12 |
kadoosh
Messages: 90
Registered: April 2004
Karma: 0
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Honestly the Renegade Points system sucks with or without the points fix... I've noticed a trend forming in newer games, Points go on the kill, not on the individual damage(aside from Kill Damage Assists).
Ex:
Kill = 2pts
Kill Assist = 1pt
Vehicle Kill = 2pts
Vehicle Kill Assist = 1
Kill Assists = person who does the most support damage.
If I shoot someone/something and it get's repaired my damage is negated.
Repairing is rewarded based on how much damage you repair. Say for every 250pts of damage = 1pt (would have to be tweaked to work in renegade)
Building Kills = no idea how many points this should be worth.
not
kill = 100pts
damage before kill = 10,000pts spread out amongst 5 other players (yes that's wish full thinking)
I understand that this is much harder than just using the released points system, or the modified/corrected points system.
I do admire the passion of the people still putting an effort into this game. Hopefully it works out.
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| Re: Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plaid guilty :( [message #414490 is a reply to message #414487] |
Fri, 18 December 2009 21:26 |
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Spoony
Messages: 3915
Registered: January 2006
Karma: 0
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General (3 Stars)
Tactics & Strategies Moderator |
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| kadoosh wrote on Fri, 18 December 2009 22:12 |
Honestly the Renegade Points system sucks with or without the points fix... I've noticed a trend forming in newer games, Points go on the kill, not on the individual damage(aside from Kill Damage Assists).
Ex:
Kill = 2pts
Kill Assist = 1pt
Vehicle Kill = 2pts
Vehicle Kill Assist = 1
Kill Assists = person who does the most support damage.
If I shoot someone/something and it get's repaired my damage is negated.
Repairing is rewarded based on how much damage you repair. Say for every 250pts of damage = 1pt (would have to be tweaked to work in renegade)
Building Kills = no idea how many points this should be worth.
not
kill = 100pts
damage before kill = 10,000pts spread out amongst 5 other players (yes that's wish full thinking)
I understand that this is much harder than just using the released points system, or the modified/corrected points system.
I do admire the passion of the people still putting an effort into this game. Hopefully it works out.
|
here are the facts.
with the original points and economy system (aka pointsfix):
the total points gained for killing a unit is 10% of the unit's cost, give or take a point for rounding up/down. so 80 for a med, 50 for an APC, 35 for a hotwire etc etc etc.
half of that amount is gained by damaging the unit to very-nearly-dead. the other half is awarded on the actual kill.
with buildings it's roughly the same principle. 750 points overall for killing a building, 250 of which is the final kill bonus.
eg it takes five remotes to kill a building. say you had five remotes and you used them one after another. you'd get 100, then 100, then 100, then 100, then 350 (100+250)
points for repairing: half the points the enemy got doing the damage in the first place.
without the pointsfix, the points gained against green-health tanks is all over the place.
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
- noun
1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful
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| Re: Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plaid guilty :( [message #414492 is a reply to message #414490] |
Fri, 18 December 2009 21:47 |
kadoosh
Messages: 90
Registered: April 2004
Karma: 0
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Recruit |
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| Spoony wrote on Fri, 18 December 2009 23:26 |
| kadoosh wrote on Fri, 18 December 2009 22:12 |
Honestly the Renegade Points system sucks with or without the points fix... I've noticed a trend forming in newer games, Points go on the kill, not on the individual damage(aside from Kill Damage Assists).
Ex:
Kill = 2pts
Kill Assist = 1pt
Vehicle Kill = 2pts
Vehicle Kill Assist = 1
Kill Assists = person who does the most support damage.
If I shoot someone/something and it get's repaired my damage is negated.
Repairing is rewarded based on how much damage you repair. Say for every 250pts of damage = 1pt (would have to be tweaked to work in renegade)
Building Kills = no idea how many points this should be worth.
not
kill = 100pts
damage before kill = 10,000pts spread out amongst 5 other players (yes that's wish full thinking)
I understand that this is much harder than just using the released points system, or the modified/corrected points system.
I do admire the passion of the people still putting an effort into this game. Hopefully it works out.
|
here are the facts.
with the original points and economy system (aka pointsfix):
the total points gained for killing a unit is 10% of the unit's cost, give or take a point for rounding up/down. so 80 for a med, 50 for an APC, 35 for a hotwire etc etc etc.
half of that amount is gained by damaging the unit to very-nearly-dead. the other half is awarded on the actual kill.
with buildings it's roughly the same principle. 750 points overall for killing a building, 250 of which is the final kill bonus.
eg it takes five remotes to kill a building. say you had five remotes and you used them one after another. you'd get 100, then 100, then 100, then 100, then 350 (100+250)
points for repairing: half the points the enemy got doing the damage in the first place.
without the pointsfix, the points gained against green-health tanks is all over the place.
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If all that was directed at my (wish full thinking) comment, then ... what ever you say. It makes no difference as the points system I mentioned above would never be adopted by the Ren community, so there's no point really discussing it any farther. I just thought I throw it out there as a comparison as to what games are using now.
I still believe the Renegade Points system sucks ass With or Without the bug fix. Played it with both, hated it with both, though it is better with it.
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| Re: Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plaid guilty :( [message #414496 is a reply to message #413512] |
Sat, 19 December 2009 01:39 |
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Goztow
Messages: 9737
Registered: March 2005
Location: Belgium
Karma: 13
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General (5 Stars)
Goztoe |
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If you play as a team, it doesn't matter WHO in your team gets the points on kill as long as the total amount is correct. If you play individually, then your remark about how the kill points are rewarded would be significant. But guess what: Renegade is supposed to be all about teamplay.
You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
[Updated on: Sat, 19 December 2009 01:40] Report message to a moderator |
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